How do I become a "No loss" Player: Tips needed

[Shadowcran]

If you notice, there's a difference in the help threads. There's 1. Beginner tips and 2. No loss tips. Where's the middle ground, where you're pretty experienced as a player, but not up to the no loss on impossible level.

That's me. I learn fast, but I'm late to the King's Bounty games. I would appreciate the tips to get to that "next level".

1. What creatures are best to use for no loss
2. What creatures are worst for no loss
3. What spells are best for no loss
4. What spells are worst for no loss(don't waste a single crystal on)
5. What Rage/dragon abilities are worth it, or not worth it
6. Are there battles that should be avoided completely?
7. Getting the most out of unit talents
8. Battlefield tactics to give yourself best way to not lose creatures
9. When to "kite" and when to not
10. Training yourself for no loss. Which game is best(I have them all)

I've found one method but it's sort of late game, unless the right spells fall into your hands early. Still, this is for NORMAL play, not Impossible and that's where I need to get. It works in both WoTN and AP.

My method involves Royal Griffins, Inquisitors, Paladins, Rune Mages(In Crossworlds), and the 5th should be a good ranged. I'm always having trouble deciding that 5th unit and am never totally satisfied so I could use some advice there. It also involves the spell phantom, and Resurrection helps but isn't totally necessary. The Wings item can also help but isn't necessary. The Griffin Banner Definitely helps, but you can still do this without it.

I simply rush the Griffins, using angelic guard, then cast phantom or use Rune Mage ability to cast Phantom on original stack and repeat. This leaves a huge front line. I also tend to use Archmages as 5th and use Magic Shield on original stack, but it's also not necessary as I pull the original back after first turn. I arrange the other units in a sort of checkerboard where the paladin can heal them all at once. The griffin line holds back the hordes and since it always retaliates, weakens them considerably while the mages/Inquisitors blast them with ranged. In AP, with Resurrection skill at 3, you're practically guaranteed never to lose a unit plus you can keep that original Royal Griffin stack in battle instead of pulling it back.

I would like to hear your advice on getting better and to that next level of difficulty up to no loss. Thanks in advance.

[Shadowcran]

For Dark side, I've adopted another, but it too, is late game and loses nothing.

Units are:
1. Demonologists 208
2. Archdemons 29
3. Dragon Riders 17
4. Necromancers 224
5. Goblin with Catapult 344(again, 5th is always debatable to me. The Chemists work well here too, but I feel I'm missing some symmetry and would appreciate recommendations. Orc Shaman do NOT work at this level)

And this also involves the Phantom spell, but in this one, it's only in worst case situations. Call to Nature is main spell

I rush the Archdemons to 'near' the front line, cast Call to Nature in front of him in one space, summon demons in another. Dragon Riders put dragons to block any other ranged units. Demonologists then summon their demons. The Call to nature in Dark Side is far superior to previous versions and finally worth it's mana cost. So I'm sitting there with 4 expendable powerhouses on turn 1 and my main stacks protected. From there it's simple. I don't even have to cast Call to Nature again, and instead 'waste' spells getting my awards/badges. Traps are my worst enemy at this point so I tend to summon Books of Evil on top of them so my demon units don't fall into them. Demonologists are the main healer IF it's needed. If more is needed, I simply phantom the demonologists. At my point in Dark Side, level 53 on Normal, The healing ability often wipes out a large enemy stack with 214 Demonologists.

The Necromancers magic lock usually on turn 1 if Druids or the like are present. Druids can ruin your call to nature so they take priority. After that, they're simply creating units. The expensive Dragon Riders I use their "Dive" Ability in a safe spot behind the expendable front line as it doesn't affect your own creatures. I've managed to accumulate 17 of them so far.

My problem isn't units, except for the 5th creature/unit, but the spells and rage abilities. I feel I'm not getting the most out of them. Orc Shield works well to protect the Dragon Riders or Archdemons but the rest seem...not necessary.

[BB Shockwave]

Not sure you are doing this right, using Catapults - a unit noteable for its fire weakness - with units that excel in area effect fire damage like the Archdemon (now in DS). Btw, that game sure munchkinned the Archdemons, giving a Level 5 unit that can teleport anywhere the ability to use strike-and-return without retaliation is not even funny. That game is unabalanced as hell.

I only have tips for Crossworlds, I am playing No-Loss there and have gone through multiple times with different army setups. My first was Warrior on Normal, No-Loss, all-LIzardman army. I skipped using Gobots and Chosa because they die easily, and the Chosa is useless for anything else but summoning.
My second was Paladin with Human army on Hard - I used Rune Mages, Archmages, Horsemen, Paladins and Royal Griffins. The latter are a great synergy for humans. I sometimes swapped Paladins with Knights, against Dragons.
Now I am going with a Mage and Demons, on Hard. I use all demon units, plus Demonologists, got to level 38 already, no-loss. The key is getting Order Magic+resurrection first, and getting the necessary demon-army-booster items like demetrius or the Bow of Thousand Souls. My main line-up is usually Executioners, Demonologists, Demonesses, Archdemons and Cerberi. For tough battles with fast enemies I replace Cerberi with Demons, and for enemies I cannot charm I replace Demonesses with Scoffer imps (since Taunt works with the undead, too). Archdemons are there to halve enemy troops and soak up damage from weaker troops, I usually weaken one enemy with death Star/Fireballs and then use my Demoness to swap that with my Executioners and use my Cerberi to kill the teleported unit. Demonologists are good for summoning and healing, but they otherwise suck as ranged units. Demonesses help a lot by charming enemies whom you can sacrifice. They are also quite powerful if you use the whip (I don't, since the bow is better) and have Agvares as a follower.

[Shadowcran]

Thanks for the response. I'll use your advice.

Crossworlds/AP is the best in the series, but I love them all.

Archdemons in Dark Side at least don't 'halve' stacks anymore.

Still having trouble on the 5th creature deciding on which. Catapults are the one I choose so far.

You mentioned some trouble with not having resurrection in Dark Side on another thread, I responded with some helpful tips. The hardest part is just getting through Portland. Once done, you've more options with the Heretarchs(or however it's spelled,lol)until you get some Demonologists. Btw, about that one:

If you can avoid the battle at the entrance to Atrixus, and avoid any other battles, you can get to Verderet(however it's spelled), who not only has demonologists but other quality demons. I think you can get there via the catacombs right after you're kicked out of Dragandor. I think, think mind you, that you can get him to come to the shelter too at that time, and that means whenever you need the good demons, bam, he's right there.

I am convinced they will update that game in the future. A lot of the quests are hard to follow, if you're a novice to the series it's probably impossible. A lot of them are vague as to what to do next.

*If you're a novice reading this, don't pick the vampire right off. Too hard. Pick the Demoness.

Don't buy a single Metamorph. Worthless. I thought, "hmm, I can copy the Demonologist or Necromancer with the added numbers of the Metamorph and get super abilities...Wrong". Phantom is better to use and doesn't take a unit slot. In fact, it's the same effect as phantom.

[Elwin]

For succesful no loss u need summoners for meatshield and a tough units. Also multiple ways of restroing your army, since in hgarder battles one way might not be enough. Paladin is great for that. I had trouble picking range unit as well and i ended up with herersiach and wizard. Both have great utility for no loss. ONly problem i had was elves. Somehow elves in this game or at elast in my game have 90% magic resist making my casters almost useless. Damage wise at least still 50% dmg reduction from shield helps a lot and also i toyed with his push ability to put enemies in traps ;p However in your army u already have 2 ranged units and with magic magic dmg so i would say paladin or a kinght here would be good idea.
For no loss battles crowd control is very important many tough units u can lock down with just slow and trap. Also target is must have spell. Never pick units which u cant restore like black dragons. Well if u gat black dragon in early game its awesome but in late game they will be only a burden.
If u want no loss mage u must pray for phoenix spell pretty fast.

PErsonaly i dont have patience for full no loss touigh did it in AP on hard with lizard/human army once. I dont liek loosing units and most my battles are no loss but sometimes i cant bother to relaod hard battle for one unit lost in last turn ;s

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by Elwin

Never pick units which u cant restore like black dragons. Well if u gat black dragon in early game its awesome but in late game they will be only a burden.

Hmm, cannot Rune Mages resurrect Black Dragons? Frankly, I did my No-Loss with Blackies in TL only, where I used Time Back to raise them, and Orc Shamans to heal them (yes, Spirit Axes actually heals them, as does Gizmo).

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by Shadowcran

Thanks for the response. I'll use your advice.

Crossworlds/AP is the best in the series, but I love them all.

Archdemons in Dark Side at least don't 'halve' stacks anymore.

But, now there is a Warrior skill that gives that ability to ALL your units, and occuring very often! Talk about munchkin-y...
It's a pity the last two games are so unplayable for me, as I quite liked the Ice Dragon and the Jotun from WotN. Are there any mods that can add them to AP/CW?

Still having trouble on the 5th creature deciding on which. Catapults are the one I choose so far.

You already have Necromancers and Demonologists, you don't need more ranged units. Also, undead kinda decrease morale of Orcs, no? I'd instead add some tough melee unit, as that is what your setup needs IMHO. Demons are a good choice -they retaliate to every attack, do increased damage to 1-3 level units, and can summon demons and even boost your Archdemon. Not to mention their summoning will strengthen your demonologist. Alternatively, go with Royal Griffins, they summon and retaliate too, and are faster, if weaker.

You mentioned some trouble with not having resurrection in Dark Side on another thread, I responded with some helpful tips. The hardest part is just getting through Portland. Once done, you've more options with the Heretarchs(or however it's spelled,lol)until you get some Demonologists.

Sorry - much like I stopped Heroes VI and never looked back, I have little time to waste on games I don't like. I work 9-10 hours a day and barely get to play on the weekends, at best. I cannot afford to waste months or more on DS that so far, has only frustrated me and offered no fun, unlike CW.

I am convinced they will update that game in the future. A lot of the quests are hard to follow, if you're a novice to the series it's probably impossible. A lot of them are vague as to what to do next.

Ohhh boy! I am not falling for that again. Check the 120-pages-long bugthread of WotN. I was a frequent poster there and in the bugfixes. But even to this day, they did not get Christa's Gift to work at all, or have the Last Hero spell not crash the game to desktop. DS has not many gamebreakers (though I did get desktop crashes with one spell), but is very untested and beta-stage. And I'll not be an unpaid beta-tester again, thank you very much. 1C can call me again if they release a new KB game with a new engine that's written by the same team who did TL and AP/CW. Until then, I am done - Heroes III HD is out, so I will be busy replaying that, anyway.

Don't buy a single Metamorph. Worthless. I thought, "hmm, I can copy the Demonologist or Necromancer with the added numbers of the Metamorph and get super abilities...Wrong". Phantom is better to use and doesn't take a unit slot. In fact, it's the same effect as phantom.

Agreed. And the Spy is rather useless too, what use is the little girl form with the kamikaze spell when it has such awful damage.
Oh, and it's "Metamorth" actually - because 1C was too cheap to even pay a spellchecker. Same as the "Lasts one of a round" (SIC) spell descriptions, which plagues WotN too. I did create a grammatically correct spell description TXT mod, they were free to use it... but didn't. Sometimes I feel they just put the russian text into Google Translate. I am Hungarian myself but even I speak/write better.

[Shadowcran]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

But, now there is a Warrior skill that gives that ability to ALL your units, and occuring very often! Talk about munchkin-y...
It's a pity the last two games are so unplayable for me, as I quite liked the Ice Dragon and the Jotun from WotN. Are there any mods that can add them to AP/CW?
Perhaps I'm not realizing their worth(that wouldn't be a first, lol) but they don't seem quite so good. However, I'm happy to see some ice creatures in a game, as all of them seem to be fire centric. So tell me how you use them, please. I kind of like the Ice Spiders myself though. Cheap creatures that can hit pretty hard and has a lot of resistances.


You already have Necromancers and Demonologists, you don't need more ranged units. Also, undead kinda decrease morale of Orcs, no? I'd instead add some tough melee unit, as that is what your setup needs IMHO. Demons are a good choice -they retaliate to every attack, do increased damage to 1-3 level units, and can summon demons and even boost your Archdemon. Not to mention their summoning will strengthen your demonologist. Alternatively, go with Royal Griffins, they summon and retaliate too, and are faster, if weaker.
Funny you said demons as I'd already added them prior to reading this,lol. However, after they dump off their demons, they seem a bit lost. Not enough R Griffins in Dark Side to use. However, I often get around 150 of them via Back to Nature. Just added another 20 dragon riders with fake princesses so have 37 of them. tempted to just split them


Sorry - much like I stopped Heroes VI and never looked back, I have little time to waste on games I don't like. I work 9-10 hours a day and barely get to play on the weekends, at best. I cannot afford to waste months or more on DS that so far, has only frustrated me and offered no fun, unlike CW.



Ohhh boy! I am not falling for that again. Check the 120-pages-long bugthread of WotN. I was a frequent poster there and in the bugfixes. But even to this day, they did not get Christa's Gift to work at all, or have the Last Hero spell not crash the game to desktop. DS has not many gamebreakers (though I did get desktop crashes with one spell), but is very untested and beta-stage. And I'll not be an unpaid beta-tester again, thank you very much. 1C can call me again if they release a new KB game with a new engine that's written by the same team who did TL and AP/CW. Until then, I am done - Heroes III HD is out, so I will be busy replaying that, anyway.

They recently fixed quite a bit on Steam with an update for WoTN. I posted it in that section. However, the spell Justice causes ctd's about 3 of 4 times it's used, so I had to stop.(Only using it to get award, seriously a lot of these rune spells are useless)

I'm disabled and have nothing but free time. On other games, like MTG DoTP, I tend to experiment for others with that free time.


Agreed. And the Spy is rather useless too, what use is the little girl form with the kamikaze spell when it has such awful damage.
Oh, and it's "Metamorth" actually - because 1C was too cheap to even pay a spellchecker. Same as the "Lasts one of a round" (SIC) spell descriptions, which plagues WotN too. I did create a grammatically correct spell description TXT mod, they were free to use it... but didn't. Sometimes I feel they just put the russian text into Google Translate. I am Hungarian myself but even I speak/write better.

Haven't gotten the Spy yet..I must have missed something. But I won't waste a gp on them. Also, don't waste jack on the Golem. 500,000 gp to get lousy xp? uh uh.

I'm also splitting time with DS and WoTN plus a replay of Legend and first play of Orcs on the March.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by Shadowcran

My problem isn't units, except for the 5th creature/unit, but the spells and rage abilities. I feel I'm not getting the most out of them. Orc Shield works well to protect the Dragon Riders or Archdemons but the rest seem...not necessary.

% stack damage is pretty darn strong coming from spellbook or rage. It can be a big life saver on impossible against stupidly large stacks that are difficult to control.

My Army (Demoness-Hard, level 60) is Red/Green/Bone dragons, Dragon Riders and Arch Demons. I only lose a unit when I'm careless with Zlogn or similar.I've got Red dragons that cost like 760 leadership, so I've got like 60 of them (Draconix, heart of the dragon, Lord, and the Eye great artifact).

Most fights are Black Hole to draw enemy together, Fire rain + red dragon fire to nuke the heck out of things. Then maybe a target spell on a summoned dragon, or similar controlly effect.

The hardest part of no loss is easily the early game. Playing the Vampire on Impossible and it's hard to avoid losses even after map kiting a whole bunch (Got to galenrim before finishing Portland). Shamans and the volcano spell help a lot because units HATE totems and volcanos.

[Shadowcran]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

% stack damage is pretty darn strong coming from spellbook or rage. It can be a big life saver on impossible against stupidly large stacks that are difficult to control.

My Army (Demoness-Hard, level 60) is Red/Green/Bone dragons, Dragon Riders and Arch Demons. I only lose a unit when I'm careless with Zlogn or similar.I've got Red dragons that cost like 760 leadership, so I've got like 60 of them (Draconix, heart of the dragon, Lord, and the Eye great artifact).

Most fights are Black Hole to draw enemy together, Fire rain + red dragon fire to nuke the heck out of things. Then maybe a target spell on a summoned dragon, or similar controlly effect.

The hardest part of no loss is easily the early game. Playing the Vampire on Impossible and it's hard to avoid losses even after map kiting a whole bunch (Got to galenrim before finishing Portland). Shamans and the volcano spell help a lot because units HATE totems and volcanos.

You can eliminate the Ziogyns by replacing the Bone dragons. Then you'll only encounter them vs enemy Undead units. However, if you go "full undead", those ziogyns are your buddies.

My current playthrough, I'm level 67 as the vampire. The spell I kited from dragandor coal cart was "Death Star" and with just a little prematch preparation with the level 1 Tactics and you can avoid all damage to your own units using it. It cannot target Dragon Riders for instance and you can put it directly across from it on the map. Also, Death Star....Wrecks Towers great.

With the Vampire, I've found traitor humans work the best, especially after Isenburg becomes dark. Dark paladins resurrection is ...awesome, except it doesn't work on level 5 units. However, Heresiarchs' Resurrection DOES. The Wizard is great until the late game as is the Dark Knights. There is not enough numbers of these creatures so the Blood Priestess comes in handy to fill them up at level ups. With the "Nightmare" designation and the Order of Twilight amulet, my army's morale was "Unshakeable".

If you want to go "full Traitor human", the 5th could be Either Mage Killer or Horseman. For a level 2, Mage Killer has some great abilities.

As of now, my army(except when I experiment) is

1. 22 ArchDemons
2. 22 Dragon Riders
3. 177 Dark Paladins
4. 390 Heresiarchs
5. 195 Wizards(which I can sub 140 Demonologists for)

Creation is a killer spell crucial to Dark Paladins and Heresiarchs. It can sometimes give the Dark Paladin 5 Prayers or the Heresiarch 5 Resurrect at Level 3.

or 5 Thread of Life for the Demonologist

I wonder how many players pass on buying the Alchemy set(s)?