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| King`s Bounty: Warriors of the North Next game in the award-winning King’s Bounty series |
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#1
09-13-2014, 04:28 AM
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Fixing Starting Daert / Bagyr
Okay, I've been doing a lot of play testing here and there with both Daert and Bagyr.
For Daert, it is possible to do no loss through Whitehill with just two Vampires if you get lucky and receive 1 of about 5 different spell choices from the Ore Cart in Dragandor. I've also been doing some playtesting with Bagyr's starting forces and due to the fact that you don't get any spells except Haste / Slow and you get a single Veteran Orc with Goblins, Furious Goblins, 2 Orcs, and 5 Hyenas he has no chance to do any of the Catacombs fights. You pretty much have to run Bagyr to the Shelter as quickly as possible and then you hire the Shelter troops to complete the fights with losses. For both you can use the Spider / Snake Eggs to create a large uncontrollable stack that can handle the various stacks, but these are with losses. So I'm for improving the starting situation of Daert and Bagyr so that they are much more fun to play like Neoline and that you can actually do no loss at impossible difficulty through Whitehill without having to restart, scan your save game, and determine if you've got a chance. I've performed the most testing with Daert and here is what I think is a fun starting situation where you can actually have some decent spell selection and play one of the new units in the game (1 point for each spell level and 12 total points):
The spell selection is really good, too, as you can use the Frost Grasp on the Snakes and Spiders to great effect and you still have Poison Skull to use on the Dwarves, Humans, and Elves. You also get to cast Evil Book and Kamikaze is great to cast on a raised unit. So far I was able to do all the Spider stacks except the big one in the Catacombs. I'm 1 Magic Rune short from getting Chaos Level 2 as I just made Daert Level 4 (I probably could have held off on going with Meditation so if you don't go with that skill then it is possible to get Chaos to Level 2 if the Might Runes fall for you). I'm looking forward to continuing this playtest through Whitehill to see how well it works, but I was able to do the above with 5 Vampires instead of 2 Female Vampires through Whitehill no loss. I also made one other change and this is to add variability to the Zombie shop where they can sell either Archers or Skeletons and Zombies or Cursed Zombies. As far as Bagyr is concerned, his starting army is absolutely pitiful and his spell selection only of limited help. So, sticking with the same point system (and same number of starting points, 5) I think a better spell selection for Bagyr is:
So here is his starting army and available units from Tristrem:
This gives some variability to Bagyr's start, but the idea is that you can use the Furious Goblin ability to find an extra 1,000 to 2,000 gold or so from the 3 fights and then you'll end up disbanding the starting Goblins (perhaps they should be swapped out with another unit) and then you can disband the Furious Goblins when you are getting ready to buy troops from the Troll shop. The Orc units are just not very good in low numbers, unlike the Demon and Undead troops so you need a troop that can summon units. The only troop that can summon units is the Orc Scout. I never even saw one in my Demoness playthrough with Neoline and so I think this is a great way to introduce a new unit since you start with 1. There is a possibility of getting another one from the Troll shop, but it is not guaranteed. You can run around and pick up the other troops if you'd like, or just go with this group and you can take all the armies with just this group. Use your Furious Goblins to check bodies for money and hopefully you collect somewhere between 1,000 to 2,000 gold from your endeavors to give you money to buy stuff from the Troll shop. After getting rid of the Goblins and Furious Goblins, you should have (one or more troops will be in reserve):
You then will either get more Goblin Riders, Orcs, or Catapults and Veteran Orcs, Shamans, or Orc Scouts with some additional spell scrolls and artifacts. Based on who you can purchase will determine which troops you place in reserve. In my current playtest, I have 1 Orc Scout (+1 in reserve), 2 Orcs, 1 Catapult, 2 Veteran Orcs, 1 Shaman, and 11 Goblin Riders in reserve. I also had enough money to buy the Stone Skin and Berserker spells, but that used up all my money. I was able to do the first easy Catacombs stack and so I'm hoping to be able to do all 3 at least. We'll see if I can take on the harder Spider stack in the Catacombs or I'd at least want to try to take out the stack before the Dragandor gate since it usually has troops divided into smaller stacks (usually 7 stacks instead of 5). When Bagyr gets to level 4, he should have enough Leadership to have 2 Orc Scouts (with the ability to summon up to 10 Wolves) and then I'll probably put the 2 Orcs in reserve and go with max Goblin Riders. I also have the option of splitting the Orc Scouts and keeping the Goblin Riders and the Orcs in reserve as this might be a better strategy. I'm still evaluating both the changes to Daert's and Bagyr's starting scenario and if there is interest maybe I'll post these changes once they get dialed in. I need to get a feel for Bagyr's Leadership increase to see if there should be more troops offered from the Troll shop if you can afford them. I'm also thinking of switching Blur to a Scroll and have him start with Whirlwind as a Spell so that you can use that with Trap (Level 1 Diversion should be attainable by level 4 or 5 max) and cause some small damage to units as well, but it costs 5 Mana, which is expensive for the start (although I think you may have enough Magic Runes for 1 point in Meditation to get you up to 16 Mana when you reach level 4). Bagyr does not get enough Magic Runes, it seems, to be able to get any of the spell schools until probably around level 7 or 8 as a guess (too high of a level to be able to learn any new spells before completing the first Whitehill fight). Also, if the Goblins are just going to be disbanded at the start I'll probably end up changing them to a different troop. So the point to all this is to make the game more fun for playing Daert or Bagyr and to give them the possibility of no loss on impossible difficulty through Whitehill with a significant percentage of their starting scenarios. Neoline can pretty much do no loss on impossible with her current starting scenario. Daert only has a very small chance of being able to do no loss with his current starting scenario through Whitehill and Bagyr actually seems to have no possibility of doing no loss through Whitehill. Chime in if you have any thoughts or ideas on improving Daert's or Bagyr's starting scenario.  By the way, the mod is now available: /C\/C\ Last edited by MattCaspermeyer; 10-12-2014 at 08:07 AM. Reason: Added download link for both V0.1 & 0.2. 
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#2
09-14-2014, 07:17 AM
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Couldn't do no loss with the above setup...
Well, as it turns out I couldn't do no loss with the above setup.
There are two few Orc troops and too many of the Elf / Human troops in the Shelter. I was actually able to do every single fight (including the big Spider stack in the Catacombs) no loss until I got to the Elven / Human stacks in the Shelter. I had gotten Diversion level 2, even, but 2 Traps are not enough. So I realized that there is really only one way to do this fight with Bagyr and that is to give him the Trap spell so that he can work on his Trap medal and get it to Level 1. Then he'll have at least 3 traps when fighting the Elves / Humans and with the ability to cast more he can then cause enough damage to win with the troops that I changed above. So I put this to practice and started a new game. I had changed Bagyr's starting spells from above to be such that he starts with Trap as a spell and all his other spells are scrolls. I also swapped the Goblins out for a single Catapult and increased the starting Furious Goblins that you can get from 8 to 10 to 12 to 16 so that I could see if he could get more money with more numbers. As it turns out, I don't think it makes a difference. I also added the Clay Bowl to the Troll Shop and I also got the Warm Mittens as the random Level 1 Viking item. With these two items, Bagyr was +10 Mana. There are two things that you can do in Tristrem at the start, and that is: 1) work on your Trap medal and 2) farm bodies for money with your Furious Goblins. You can also take advantage of a Dryad and use your Furious Goblins to keep killing her summoned Thorns. I was able to get about 6,000 gold in one fight this way (and I actually had quite a few low gold acquisitions, like 80 or 90 gold for a body). You can actually do this in the game without any changes, but the problem is that there is really nothing to buy in the shop with that money. At any rate, I didn't do so hot on my trapping in Tristrem, but I got it to 4 kills (I was hoping to get to 6), but I had over 10,000 gold from the money from the bodies, quests, etc. In the Catacombs, I was much better and got Trapper Level 1 medal. This is similar, to Neoline's playthrough in that you need to get Trapper at least to Level 1 and you should be able to get Diversion Level 3. With Bagyr and the changes I made, it is possible to get Trapper Level 1 and Diversion Level 1 at least (and hopefully Level 2) by the time you get to Level 5. It depends on how the Spirit Runes fall, but in both games I got Diversion Level 2 when Bagyr was Level 5. So this time, I had purchased 5 Orcs (for a total of 7) / 1 Orc Scout (for a total of 2) from the Troll shop and I had 2 Catapults, 2 Veteran Orcs, 4 Spirit Talkers, and 1 Shaman as well. I ended up putting the Orcs and 1 Orc Scout in reserve until I faced the Elves / Humans in the Shelter. I then switched the Spirit Talkers to reserve and I had enough Leadership (you need almost 400) to command 2 Orc Scouts. My winning army through Whitehill was 2 Catapults, 7 Orcs, 2 Veteran Orcs, 2 Orc Scouts, and 1 Shaman. I actually had enough Magic Runes by Level 6 to put 1 point in Bibliophile and 1 point in Distortion if I wanted to, but decided to save the runes until I get to Portland. As an alternate, I also could have put 1 point in Meditation and 1 point in Order. I think this gives good variability on the Magic Skill Tree. Playing this way is fairly challenging and allows you to start with 1 new troop and acquire another in Tristrem. I think it is much more fun than the current setup for Bagyr. As an aside, I don't think it is possible to do no loss on impossible with Bagyr with the stock game files even if you are able to get Level 1 Diversion when he reaches Level 3 because there are not enough fights with just 1 Trap to get your Trapper Medal to Level 1. That would be the only way to do Bagyr no loss as his starting units are too weak. From this playthrough, I learned quite a bit of Bagyr's starting situation and from this I made the following changes:
Bagyr's starting army is now:
For the Troll Shop, since I gave Bagyr the 2 Orc items, I removed them and I added Trap and the Clay Bowl as items you can purchase. Trap is 10,000 gold, and so you'll only be able to get it if you face a Dryad in one of the 3 Elven stacks in Tristrem. I think this is a neat stretch goal to see if you can farm money from a Dryad long enough to be able to purchase it. If you can, then no loss will be easier, but since you don't necessarily get the Warm Mittens, you may only have +5 Mana (although you'll probably want to put a point in Meditation to get another +6 (I didn't do this in my playthrough above, though, but with +10 Mana I didn't need it)). So here is what you can get from the Troll Shop now:
Also, you use all the units, not a single one is useless (although it makes sense to disband the Furious Goblins to make room for the other troops once you're done farming money with them in Tristrem). The big thing here, is that you have enough variety and power to your starting troops so that you can actually do all the fights through Whitehill no loss impossible. It should be quite challenging, but not as frustrating as the current start for Bagyr. If anyone is interested in playing this setup, let me know and I'll bundle the files into an ultra-tiny mod so that you can try it!  /C\/C\
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#3
09-15-2014, 06:58 AM
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I really like the lineup you set up for Bagyr, same with Daert. It makes complete sense to play to both heroes' strengths, and I absolutely don't get how the devs put them at a such huge disadvantage. Keeping in mind what I have been reading in the forums pre-launch (like Daert having Necromancers too), it seems like those were last-second decisions. I wonder why, really.
I sure hope the devs are reading up on your tests and will adapt accordingly. Otherwise we can do it ourselves 
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#4
09-15-2014, 10:31 AM
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I cracked open the ses.kfs file too. I wanted to adjust the starting game as well. Made a thread about it but apparantly I can't post yet for some reason.
Do you know where the wife/slave, pet/spirit, and older troop files are? The only ATOM files I've found are the new units, I can't find imps, demonesses, vampires or anything except the new stuff.
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#5
09-15-2014, 01:52 PM
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They are in data.kfs.
/C\/C\
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#6
09-15-2014, 02:08 PM
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Daert changes work for no loss, too!
Okay, by the way, I finished my Daert start through Whitehill no loss with the changes made above. The only fight I couldn't do was the big Spider stack in the Catacombs. I think you need Evil Book Level 2, but I was 1 Magic Rune short @level 4. So on I went and I was able to do all the other fights no loss through the first Whitehill stack. Since you can return here anyway, I don't think it is a big deal if you skip that stack.
It is more challenging than with 5 Vampires (obviously, I guess), but still fairly doable with skill. It was fun to play the Female Vampires (I had not even really used them in my Neoline playthrough, although I had purchased a few from the Vampire Lady in Monteville). Even though they have higher leadership, they are actually not as good as regular Vampires in small numbers because you can't use their Call ability because there are too few of them and the enemy has too many units. Also their Long Attack is really not very useful either and they can't increase their numbers if you lose one. The transformation into a cloud ability is useful, especially for getting an Evil Book close to the enemy. Nonetheless, it is fun to play them this way and it is also neat to use the Cursed Ghost's Ghost Cry ability and their Life Steal is just enough to be useful even if they have low numbers. One thing weird, though, is that if you lose one, I haven't been able to get them to increase their numbers (something seems bugged here as I thought it used to work). Anyway, I might do some minor tweaking to Daert / Bagyr, but for the most part, I think these are winning combinations. If the devs frequent the forums, I certainly hope they use this to patch the game such that both of these classes have a chance for no loss through Whitehill just like Neoline on impossible difficulty. If there is no change, then like @DGDobrev said I'll package the files up and post them here. /C\/C\
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Hybrid Mode
