Melee Monster Mash Build?

[ckdamascus]

A while ago, we found out shooters can be very powerful and sweep the game easily with 100% criticals, taking out bosses far faster than previous imagined.

I'm now trying to consider if melee can do something similar?

One of the best damage per leadership melee units is the paladin using the class Paladin (due to +40% damage medal).

Throw in battle axe and the inquisitor set.

Or, go with a warrior and rely on orc power. Driller, battle axe, and ogre club.

That said, I had some success with no retaliation units against the big bosses in the Arena campaign.

I wonder if such a thing can be repeated again in the main campaign?

The biggest killer is the loss of initiative. The warrior with ranged was able to out initiative everyone thanks to onslaught and quickdraw.

Is this a foolish quest?

So, Warrior + Orc power?

Or, Paladin + Paladin holy power?

And, what kind of support units can we throw in there to mix it up a bit?

Mark of Blood + Paladin with the buffs + critical hit + Jolly Ranger (+20% to crit damage!) with a Helplessness debuff for good measure?

Oh yeah, this is for Impossible No-Loss games (or possibly nearly no loss). Just looking for a fun, super powered build that uses melee.

[BB Shockwave]

I used a full-Lizardman army in AP - Tirex for tanks, Gorguls for main damage dealers, Gorguana as support units/curses enemies, Brontors as tanks or ranged attackers, and Hayterants for summoners/hit and run.

Your Paladin line-up is good too... I am currently doing a 3 melee/2 ranged mostly-human army walkthrough on Hard with my Paladin: Paladins, Horsemen, Royal Griffins, Archmages and Rune Mages.

[ckdamascus]

Ah, looks like a single race can have a fairly healthy mix of units.

I am so used to using the neutrals like dragons and trolls (I love them). Trolls are so grossly powerful especially with that ogre club.

After doing the math, it looks pretty bad for the Paladin class.

Even with the +40% damage, a warrior with the right items, will out damage the Paladin using paladins, but has more flexibility due to triple weapon slots.

I really really really want to use orcs or demons this time around.

Undead look a little more interesting, but alas, the idea of using eviln bores me to the bone. (No pun intended).

Rune mages seem to be a necessity for my party though.

Can someone still give me a reason to use the Paladin Class? I would like to run with a blonde heroine, but I see no compelling reason. I'm not interested in the solo stack / revive or the one man armageddon trick either.

Aieeee.

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Ah, looks like a single race can have a fairly healthy mix of units.

I am so used to using the neutrals like dragons and trolls (I love them). Trolls are so grossly powerful especially with that ogre club.

And the Ogre sandals. They are a must, if you fight during the day.

After doing the math, it looks pretty bad for the Paladin class.

Even with the +40% damage, a warrior with the right items, will out damage the Paladin using paladins, but has more flexibility due to triple weapon slots.

What items? The drill is one, but I did not use it much - it decreases speed (or initiative?) which is not a good thing.

I really really really want to use orcs or demons this time around.

- Oh yeah, my next walkthrough will be with elves, but afterwards it's an all-demon army for me too (and Demonologists, of course).

Undead look a little more interesting, but alas, the idea of using eviln bores me to the bone. (No pun intended).

I played them in the Legend with a little "cheating modding" to get no-loss: I created a new "Raise Dead" spell from the useless spell "Last Hero" which functions the same way as Resurrection, but only works on Undead and is a Chaos spell. I think it'd work in AP too. Evlins are indeed complicated to use for resurrection, specially for slow troops who have no dead bodies next to them.

Can someone still give me a reason to use the Paladin Class? I would like to run with a blonde heroine, but I see no compelling reason. I'm not interested in the solo stack / revive or the one man armageddon trick either.

I'd never go with a solo stack myself. IT's the equivalent of someone in HOMM running around with nothing but 7 stacks of Black Dragons, casting armageddon. You can do it, but where's the fun in that? I like playing the whole game with one unit setup, in order to test every unit against every other unit. One day I'll write an unit guide...

Back to your question - the Paladin has some great skills, and the Mind runes to use them.
-Adrenaline is a very, very neat thing to have, and it works every round regardless of combat fatigue. Can make your slow units like Knights or Droids get to the enemy much faster. It's random, sure, but it's always nice to have.
- Resurrection. It helps you minimize losses, plus it increases the Rune Mage's similar ability now!
-Holy Armor (new skill) - Again, helps to reduce damage taken by your units, saving those 5-th level units from dying very often.
-Holy Anger: Not only do Demons on Lava have less defense/attack now, but this great skill makes you gain mana and rage by the dozen on every hit you make against Demons and Undead! And you'll meet these enemies quite often!
-The Power of Spirit - gives you Attack AND defense for less might runes then the Might skills. Two in one!
-Neatness: free runes and crystals from those not needed items! Need I say more?
-Persuasion/Voice of the Dragon: gives morale to troops you could not increase morale otherwise (neutrals, Demons) and what's more - frees up your artifact slots so that you can use better items instead of morale boosters.
-Glory: Early on, Leadership is vital, and the paladin can take this the easiest.
-Learning: Again, makes you gain XP faster, and a paladin can get this easier.

Plus, the medals: Purifier is easy to get and raises defence, while Holy Warrior is again, not hard to get (I am level 9 and already have II. level) and makes Inquisitors/Paladins much more potent.

The regalia artifacts the Paladin is so fond of can be quite usefull, but even if not, he can still use shields/belts/artifacts instead of them.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

And the Ogre sandals. They are a must, if you fight during the day.

Which did not spawn in my new warrior game (grrr).

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

What items? The drill is one, but I did not use it much - it decreases speed (or initiative?) which is not a good thing.

The Drill, Battle Axe, Inquisitor, plus the +6750 leadership bonus warriors have over paladins.

It ends up being really close with the warrior barely edging out. If you want to stick with paladins, inquisitors, and rune mages, I agree that the paladin's resurrection skill helps that.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

- Resurrection. It helps you minimize losses, plus it increases the Rune Mage's similar ability now!

-Holy Armor (new skill) - Again, helps to reduce damage taken by your units, saving those 5-th level units from dying very often.

-The Power of Spirit - gives you Attack AND defense for less might runes then the Might skills. Two in one!

-Persuasion/Voice of the Dragon: gives morale to troops you could not increase morale otherwise (neutrals, Demons) and what's more - frees up your artifact slots so that you can use better items instead of morale boosters.

The regalia artifacts the Paladin is so fond of can be quite usefull, but even if not, he can still use shields/belts/artifacts instead of them.

I agree with resurrection, but I really don't to feel stuck with paladin/inquisitor/rune mage.

I get some of those skills even as a mage! Of course they are good, but nothing really super super super necessary unless you are specializing for dragons.

Hmmm you can't raise a normal neutral (like a troll) with persuasion, right? Just the dragons at level 3 Voice?

I will miss the holy armor.

Another reason I want to go with the warrior is the flexibility for different builds. So far it looks like I can get a reasonably decent "shooter" OR "melee" army, which opens up demons, elves, orcs (pushing hard to get orc to work), humans (of course).

So, with a single game, I could fork into the different combinations easily, as opposed to restarting.

With the Paladin Class, you almost HAVE to go Paladin, Inquisitor, Rune Mage or else you are left far far behind. Not quite enough leadership to rock the casbah, less flexibilty due to no double weapons, yet, not a great mage.

I'm ok with using "quasi-cheap" strategies, as one could argue my 100% crit catapult idea might be overpowered. I just want FAST and FUN strategies. Taking over 60 rounds to beat any match is NO good.

Thanks for the tips though hmmmm....

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Which did not spawn in my new warrior game (grrr).

Tough luck! I am lucky - all three +10 Runes after 50 fight items spawned, and 2 of them in the first islands. Now all I need is 50.000 Gold...

The Drill, Battle Axe, Inquisitor, plus the +6750 leadership bonus warriors have over paladins.

I played the Legend with Paladin, and never found my army too small. In fact, I loved the Palading because unlike with the warrior, I always had enough mana and good intellect to boost my units with spells that last many rounds. Don't learn Chaos, but develop Order and Distortion - spells like Stone Skin, Bless, God Armour, Battle Cry, Haste will be your buff spells, while you can use Phantom/Call of Nature/Phoenix to bring reinforcements, Slow, Helplessness, Blind, Oily Cloud, Dispel to hamper the enemy, and of course Healing, Resurrection and Time-Back to ensure you have no losses.

It ends up being really close with the warrior barely edging out. If you want to stick with paladins, inquisitors, and rune mages, I agree that the paladin's resurrection skill helps that.

Frankly, why is Leadership that important to you? A Mage has even less, but surely it's fun to play a Mage. Think of Paladins as "Clerics" in D&D - they are good in close-combat and can wear armor and weapons, though not as good as fighters, and they have lots of spells to strengthen their allies. They can cast damage dealing spells too, but they are never as potent as that of a Wizard.

I agree with resurrection, but I really don't to feel stuck with paladin/inquisitor/rune mage.

I'm on level 11 now, and my current line-up (Royal Griffins, Rune Mages, Inquisitors, Horsemen, Witch Hunters/Guardsmen) works pretty well. Just defeated Rolf on Bolo. Holy Armor saved my bacon quite often!

I get some of those skills even as a mage! Of course they are good, but nothing really super super super necessary unless you are specializing for dragons.

You get them sure, but a Mage or Warrior never gets that many Mind runes to get there. You will most likely spend your runes on Might Skills and a few Mind skills like Adrenaline as a Warrior, while for a Mage, the Might skills are more vital for survival in battle. The Paladin has the luxury to develop all the Mind skills, if she wants it.

Hmmm you can't raise a normal neutral (like a troll) with persuasion, right? Just the dragons at level 3 Voice?

Dragons and Animals - so this includes Griffins/Royal Griffins, all sort of Snakes, Bears, Hyenas and Wolves. (Oddly the programmers at Nival think Spiders are not animals...)

Another reason I want to go with the warrior is the flexibility for different builds. So far it looks like I can get a reasonably decent "shooter" OR "melee" army, which opens up demons, elves, orcs (pushing hard to get orc to work), humans (of course).

Your choice, but I think a Warrior will always lack the spells needed to boost a melee army. If you face an enemy shooter army, you will need spells like Mass Haste or Oil Clouds to quickly reach the enemy. A Warrior will never have much mana, unless you luck out and get the Picture of Magic (+20 Mana), or the runes needed to develop enough intellect for the spells to last long in the battle.

With the Paladin Class, you almost HAVE to go Paladin, Inquisitor, Rune Mage or else you are left far far behind. Not quite enough leadership to rock the casbah, less flexibilty due to no double weapons, yet, not a great mage.

I never understand why double weapons are so hot. Even as a Warrior, I often opted to use a shield rather. Offense is nice, but as you progress in the game, enemies will start to outnumber you, and you cannot win the battle in a few rounds... meaning you need to use Defense to minimize losses. If you are so keen on dual weapons, use followers who have weapon slots. Me, I preferred to use followers with many Artifact slots, as the special bonuses artifacts give are often better.

You also don't have to go with this combination. You can use Trolls, Dragons, etc... Sure, you won't have as many as a Warrior does, but well that's why you have your spells to boost them. I found Peacefullness is a pretty good spell to turn one of your stronger units like Horseman into a tank.

I'm ok with using "quasi-cheap" strategies, as one could argue my 100% crit catapult idea might be overpowered. I just want FAST and FUN strategies. Taking over 60 rounds to beat any match is NO good.

Everyone has different opinions on gameplay - frankly, I'd get bored with doing the exact same thing every battle. If you want to try this strategy, you might be better off in one of the smaller campaigns like Defender of the Crown, where there are a few battles only.