|
|
|||||||
| IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator. |
 |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
05-04-2009, 01:04 AM
|
|||
|
|||
ratings of German experts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey About high ratings of German experts: 1. Nobody checked their clams, often it was impossible to define what happened with the plane been attacked. Simply, the Nazi propaganda machine needed heroes and the fighter experts were those heroes. To get true level of their victories check the German and British data about RAF casualties during Battle for Britain. 2. the ussr had to send in fight green novices. the ussr had no time to prepare new pilots for a year like the usa had. so their losses were high especially in 1941-43. 3. in 1941 the most of the soviet air forces consisted of archaic planes. later better planes began to arrive. 4. for the germans to shoot one more enemy plane often was the primary target of a mission. they often did it independently from the interests of ground forces. for example, if a large group of soviet planes attacked a german ground position a couple of experts ("free hunters") didn't try to prevent it but hunted for damaged planes which went away from the formation and were easy victims. of course in such case the score of those hunters increased very much but the ground forces suffered. in the soviet air forces the personal score never was so important, they tried to fulfil their task at first. If the task of a group of pilots was to defend an important bridge they ought to do it at first and not to shoot as more as possible enemy planes. So Soviet fighter often began to fight at any conditions but the gErmans tried to fight only in the conditions favourable to them. Also, in many Soviet airforce squadrons, the pilots might 'give' their kill of the day, to the squadrons main tally, so that often the squadron, or the larger formation would have tens or hundreds of kills more, than were listed as the individual pilots victories combined! This was done on occasion in the RAF too... Also the Red Airfoce and RAF had in common, was that aircraft kills were not always displayed on aircraft. This not only because they were having a different plane every time, but it wasnt considered 'proper', in many RAF circles, as they felt that the squadron had earned the kills as a group effort... This kind of mentality or something similar, was also prevalent in the Red Airforce... And the Japanese fighter squadrons, ofcourse every side had some great individualist aces, who displayed their kills, this is only natural, especially after their country's media got hold of them! But, then again, the propaganda value of the ace was undeniable, and all sides wanted to shoot down the enemies famous aces (it has been said, that once Hans Joachim Marseille, the great ace of the desert war, was killed, the RAF pilots noticed that the morale of the Lufwaffe pilots had went down, they didnt press on as hard as before, this was the downside of the worship of the 'experten', that was full blast especially in the Lufwaffe). The Germans offered somekind of prise to the pilot who would shoot down the woman ace who'm the Germans knew as 'the rose of Stalingrad', this female pilot had 'only' 8 kills under her, (some female pilots were well over 20, but I guess this woman was the first female, thus the big deal), anyway, she actually didnt have a rose on her plane, it was a lilly, but the germans thought it was a rose. Soviet ground troops saw her end, when two units of the opposing airforces clashed, once the 'red rose of Stalingrad' had been identified, it was as if the whole German squadron had gone mad, they sent somewhere arround 7-10 ME-109s after her, just for one plane, and ofcourse with those odds, she was hit, but managed to crash land her plane inside Russian lines, she even managed to get out of the plane, but then succumbed to her wounds and died. She got a hero's funeral. But the behaviour of the Germans when they identified her, told something of their fixation on the 'experten', it was if the whole rest of the Russian planes had stopped to exist! They only saw this one plane, and I'm shure it cost them a couple fighers of their own... I wish I could remember the woman's name... I could try Wikipedia, but her knickname for the Germans was the 'rose of Stalingrad', and I suppose the Russians called her 'the Lilly of Stalingrad', after it had become a thing, like with Vasily Zaizev, in the film 'Enemy at the gates', starring Jude Law as the young sharpsooter from the Urals, who became one of the most famous snipers ever... source:http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...t=61920&page=2 Last edited by wannabetheace; 05-04-2009 at 02:48 AM. 
|
|
#2
05-04-2009, 01:29 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
In a way, you are right. The Ace fixation goes back to WW1, tales of knights, legends of chivalry, all makes War taste a little less bitter for the sheep.
The Prime Rule of efficient ruthless modern warfare is to send the Aces home crying like babies to teach their skills to vastly greater numbers of future aces, and this Rule was followed most effectively by USA and the results are in.  I wonder if the Luftwaffe dug a hole for themselves over the war years by ignoring this rule.
|
|
#3
05-04-2009, 06:44 AM
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
Okay, let me plug it apart.
Quote:
To claim a kill it was necessary to write a report and attach witness reports (air or ground witness, or later gun camera). Without such witnesses the claim wouldn't even leave the unit as it wouldn't be granted anyway. Then the claim would be checked at the Gruppe level to ensure no "obvious fairy tales" were going to OKL. The RLM had a special bureaucacy which did nothing else but check kill claims by german pilots and they quite often refused to grant a claim. However, as anyone can imagine, in the time of "Eyeball Mk I" as only sensoric device it's easy to mistake a damaged aircraft limping home as one which is on its way to a crash (or something like that). As a result all kill claims can only be viewed as claims, not real losses suffered by the opposing air force. However when looking up soviet claims vs german losses and german claims vs soviet losses it's quite amusing to see that soviet claims almost always grossly outnumbering german losses - overclaiming was not something the Luftwaffe did alone. For the VVS an overclaiming rate of 3-5 was normal (there were positive and negative exceptions of course). To give an example (and to quote myself): Quote:
Quote:
 If the latter I will surely be forgiven if I point at the british claims in early 1942 vs real german losses (overclaiming rate was 7:1).  Quote:
Quote:
But quite frankly: Could Germany afford to force its pilots to fight whenever the enemy was there? Regardless of the circumstances? If you look at the population of Germany (something below 80 million) vs the Soviet Union (no idea how much, but I suspect more than 200 million), Great Britain and the Commonwealth (no idea how much) and ultimately the USA (something around 240 million) it should be clear that winning the war could never be a question of numerical superiority but always of training, experience and doctrine. Germany could not allow its pilots to get killed in senseless battles - and as hard as that sounds - a grunt needs three months of drill on the barracks square before he can be posted to the front, a pilot needs two years (pre-1943 training) to get to the front and costs a lot more money to train. It was always a question of economy. Quote:
Quote:
So it was basically a question of cultural differences which found their way into military doctrines. What a surprise! Quote:
On the other hand it is a misconception to think that the Luftwaffe didn't rotate experienced pilots back to Germany to train youngsters. In fact they did, quite often, but such postings were temporary and the pilots would return to the front after a while. And one golden rule proved to be true there, too: A brilliant fighter pilot does not necessarily have to be a brilliant teacher, too.
|
|
#4
05-04-2009, 08:05 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
It's funny this is stated about axis pilots, whereas Allied pilot, especially US-pilots were artificially "upgraded" to produce more aces. In 1944 and again in 1945 all "probables" were upgraded to "kills". This is documented and it leads to some really interesting numbers.
For example: After the war the US Ministery of Defense compared the numbers of subs sunk by US-Airforce and Navy to the actual numbers of subs sunk. It turned out that the US alone sunk about 1300% of the subs ever built by Germany including WW1. Nevertheless all of the "corrected" aces were decorated as normal. So, propaganda is one thing, but you have to consider 2 things: 1. All sides lied about numbers and statistics, always claiming to have won over the enemy, no matter if they really did. So in a way, even if stats were overexagerated, they were on all sides. 2. It's one thing to believe the propaganda, another thing to rely on real logs. And these were actually the basis of the kill-numbers claimed and they were quite difficult to obtain, as you had to have either physical proof for the kill or at least one eyewitness. If you couldn't come up with either, it was not a kill for the record.
|
|
#5
05-04-2009, 09:33 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Yes, elite would be a good description. The Japanese airmen as well. Apparently, Bf-110 units were considered the top elite until BoB And Beyond -- is this Correct Thinking? It makes sense. When I played the sim, I started slow work on a Barbarossa 1940 campaign, and while planning it, I felt the Bf-110 just seemed to stand out as the most important tactical cover fighter and interceptor given its useful range over Eastern Front, and lack of MiGS, Yaks, and LaGGS in 1940.
|
|
#6
05-04-2009, 11:18 AM
|
|||
|
|||
VVS
Lost in air combat: 7415 Lost to AAA: 1642 On the ground: 487 Total: 9544 Luftwaffe Lost in air combat/to AAA: 1039 On the ground: 96 Total: 1135 I have another interesting source regarding above overclaims: here it goes... By Andrey Some times ago there was discussion about fighters in WWII http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...=&threadid=618 I used here some data about Soviet Air Forces in WWII and I decided to repeat some this data here because it is possible that someone will be interesting it but it is not so easy to find it in original article. Here is my translation (non complete) of G.Korniukhin’s foreword article (24 pages) to Russian edition of "Aces of Luftwaffe" of Mike Spike. Read it and make own conclusion is his opinion correct or incorrect. Part 1 “…Mike Spike couldn’t avoid from using of stamps of “cold war” time, which was usual for Western authors of that time. Book of Tolliver and Constebl “Erich Hartmann – blond knight of Reich” is example of such “literature”. It is dirty lampoon on USSR and on Soviet people. Main distinctive feature of this opus – opposition “gentlemen” and “knight” of Viermacht and Luftwaffe to drunken savage horde of Russians and Asians which fought under the Stalin’s lash. To Spike’s credit be it said that Spike tried to write not such book but his book couldn’t avoid many imperfections. Mike Spike tries to show that German fighter-pilots were not like pilots of bombers which are guilty in barbarian air bombings. He tries to show German fighter-pilots like noble “knight”. German Air Forces were united and carried out policy of Nazi system in Germany. If battles in West were restricted in some scale by military laws that battles in Eastern front were hard-edged battles for total destruction of enemy. So “blond knights” of German fighter aircraft were very well known in USSR. Exactly Bf109 shot columns of refugees in roads from low altitudes; they try to shot even single human. They hunted for trains and ambulance trucks. Especially they attended for destruction of Soviet pilots which survived after destruction of their planes. They often shot Soviet pilots which were parachuted. For example, Pokryshkin writes in his memoirs that his good friend Ostrovskiy was parachuted during combat but was shot by German fighters. Sometimes they tried to destroy Soviet pilots even in land. For example, pilot of IL-2 V. Emelianenko writes in his memoirs that one of pilots of his regiment, N.Smurygov, after emergency landing had to run around nearest house for life-saving from fire of pair of Bf109. So attempt of Spike to show air war like knight tournament not stands up to criticism. Honest knight tournaments are only in tales, air combat in nice only for observing it from land. And it is very true about German aces. “Experts” (German term “ace”) of Luftwaffe even according Spike as a rule didn’t want to take part in open combat, they preferred to increase amount of victorues with help of sudden attacks from direction of sun or during actions against enemy planes during takings off and landings. Opinion of author about amount of victories of German pilots is very doubtful. Fantastical digits of shot down planes can not be confirmed by both sides and are reason of disputes between historians even now… It is possible to say some words about trustworthiness of counting of victories of German aces. In all probability there is merit of Hoebbels propaganda service in large amount of planes which were shot down by German pilots. Reich needed in heroes for maintaining of morale in troops especially in time of defeats and retreats and such heroes were made. Images of brave “experts” were infinitely repeated in newsreel, magazines, newspapers. There was necessary only one thing for making of image of striking aces – only some privilege during confirming of their victories. Victory of German pilot was counted on base of his own report, photos of photo machine gun and reports of witnesses in air and on land. But participants of combat are interested party. Photos of photo machine gun confirmed only hitting in enemy plane, not destruction of this plane. Low resolution of these photos didn’t let to estimate scale of damage of enemy plane and photo machine gun was mounted not in every fighter-plane of Luftwaffe. So land confirmation was most significant but during WWII requirement of land confirmation became fiction. If during advance operations in Poland and France counting of Hitler’s aces was small – their victories could be checked easily – that amount of victories of Luftwaffe “experts” became to increase very quickly already during “Battle for Britain” when aerial combats occurred over enemy territory and when Luftwaffe got first defeat. British casualties were top-heavy in 3 times because of interference of Hering who let for pilots to have confirmation of their victories on their conscience. Such situation was in more scale and in Eastern Front. Spike correctly said that there was real competition for amount of victories here. Part 2 In Soviet aircraft in first time of war air victories were counted for Soviet pilots only on base of written reports of land troops. In result enemy planes which were shot down over enemy territory, in enemy rears were not counted completely. For example, 10 victories of Pokryshkin were not counted in result of this reason. Only from 1943 air witnesses could confirm air victories but even in this case they had without fail to mark on map place of crash of enemy plane. Situation was opposite in Luftwaffe. Pilots of Luftwaffe which operated over territory of own troops had no large success, but “free hunters” which flew far in enemy rear increased list of their victories up-tempo. All their victories were confirmed by their second wingmen mainly. There was case in Northern Africa when flight of “experts” under command of commander of squadron 4/JG 27 ober-leitenant Fogel shot down 65 enemy planes for less than month in August of 1942. Their actions were very simple – 4 planes flew in mission, fired ammo in sand and reported about “shot down” enemy planes after landing. In any other world army such “victories” could be reason of trial in military tribunal but in Luftwaffe situation was other. When actions of pilots were exposed pilots were only transferred in different units and “victories” which were approved in Berlin were not canceled and stayed in pilot’s lists of victories. So usual upward distortions of victories by “experts”-hunters were like childlike entertainment according opinion of Luftwaffe Command. Not accidentally those pilots who served in Luftwaffe units which were used for “free hunt” had most amounts of shot down enemy planes. Those units of Luftwaffe which had to cover bombers and land objects had heave casualties instead of them; pilots of these units had to take part in aerial combats in horizontal and to risk their life. And such units almost had no “experts”. Also Luftwaffe didn’t use terms “group victory” and “damaged plane”. All these planes were counted mainly in list of victories of German leading plane’s pilot. Second wingmen flew hundreds of battle flights, worked for their commanders and practically had no own list of shot down planes. Not accidentally much-vaunted sniper and master of flying Erich Hartmann flew as second wingman and had only 8 victories for 110 battle flights for more than half of year. Second famous German ace – Gerhard Barkhorn – flew 120 battle flights before first air victory. Amount of their victories began to increase up-tempo only when they became leading plane’s pilots of pair or, better, of flight. Single pilots, flights (example – flight of Novotny) and even squadrons worked for recognized “experts”. Such situation was very well known in Eastern Front during hard aerial combats for supremacy in air. Usual pilots of Luftwaffe risked their life when they began air combat and were bait for Soviet aces. And it was made only in order to “expert” could increase without problems his list of air victories. For actions in Eastern Front only JG 52 counted 10,000 air victories. It is approximately one fourth part 46,000 Soviet planes which were shot down in WWII. At that most part of their victories German pilots had from end of 1942 i.e. exactly from that time when confirmation of these victories became very difficult in result of German retreat. Large successes of “experts” in Russia became reason of changing of quotas for awarding of fighter-pilots in different fronts. Doubts of Command of Luftwaffe in correctness of amount of victories in East became apparent in increasing of amount of shot down enemy planes which was enough for awarding by Knight Cross. If in first period of was pilot had to get this award for 40-50 destroyed planes that in 1943 this amount was increased to 150 planes. In Western front Luftwaffe mainly repelled air raids of allied bombers and it was not so easy to manipulate with amount of air victories because practically all shot down planes crashed on German troops territory and could be easy counted. Probably, it is reason that Luftwaffe pilots in Western Front had not so many air victories that pilots of Eastern Front but Spike supposes that it is base for opinion that victories in Western Front were more difficult that victories in Eastern Front. And, probably, it is reason that successes of Eastern Front “experts” became worse when they were transferred in Western Front. Command of Luftwaffe decided to not offend pilots of anti-aircraft system of Reich and began to use special system of marks for them in 1943 – they could get Knight Cross for 40 one-engine planes like earlier or for 10 four-engine bombers. It was well-founded by difficulty of fight with solid battle orders of heavy planes, which were defended by many machine gun and gun points and which had powerful escort of fighters. Large overshoot of amount of victories of “experts” of Eastern front (very likely, in 2-3 times) doesn’t mean that German aces were not dangerous enemy. They had excellent planes, high professional level and experience of combat actions indifferent countries of Western Europe so many German pilots could exceed Soviet aces in amount of shooting down planes. They easy shot down alone damaged planes, which remained behind their group, inexperienced and heedless pilots using brilliantly tactics of combat in vertical “shoot and run away”. They effectively attacked planes which were in edge of formation and estimated training level of Soviet pilots. If Soviet pilots were irresolute or became to panic so pair of Bf109 could break up even squadron’s order. If “experts” saw that they had strong enemy so they prefer to run away on afterburning. In thus case they had no time to fix victories – victories were counted approximately. Bombers and IL-2 which had no escort also were victims of German “hunters”. Also “hunters” liked to operate near Soviet airfields. Soviet aircraft began to use “free hunt” only in middle of 1943 but it became widely used only one year later. Before this time fighters operated in the interests of land troops, they covered land combat area and escorted bombers so they were in admittedly unprofitable conditions for air combat. And amount of victories was not main task of Soviet fighter-pilots… Mike Spike and other Western authors very unwillingly use statistics data which often show real picture of WWII actions. And sometimes they give wrong digits. For example, Mike Spike approximately correct estimates amount of Soviet planes but he gave wrong digits about amount of Axis planes in June, 22nd of 1941. Former DDR historian Olaf Groeler speaks that it is very easy to know truth – it is enough to visit German military archive in Freiburg. According his data on June, 21st of 1941 Luftwaffe had 70% of planes in border of USSR. They had 953 bombers, 1025 one-engine fighters, 93 two-engine fighters, 306 diving bombers, 716 recon planes, 190 messenger planes, 33 sea planes, 256 transport planes, total – 3571 planes. Also German Allies sent planes for struggle against USSR – Romania (423 planes, inc. 170 fighters), Finland (307 planes, inc. 230 fighters), Hungary (app. 100 planes), Italy (app. 100 planes), Croatia (app. 60 planes) and Slovakia (app. 50 planes). So forces of Hitlers coalition contained not 2000 planes like Spike writes but near 4700 planes, including approximately 1600 fighters… Training level of Soviet pilots in June of 1941 was not so bad like Spike supposes… Commonly resistance of Soviet air forces in June, 22nd was very considerable. In this day JG 27 lost in combat against I-153 of 127th IAR it’s commander, veteran of legion “Condor”, cavalier of Knight Cross, Volfgang Shelman. His first battle flight in Eastern Front became his last one. JG 53 lost commander of second group, cavalier of Knight Cross, Heints Bretnutz, which was shot down by rear gunner of Soviet SB bomber. In total Luftwaffe lost more 70 planes on June, 22nd (according Soviet data – near 200). Only once before, during “Battle of Britain”, Luftwaffe had such scale losses for one day. For example, in bomber unit KG51 more than 50% of planes were damaged, near 20 planes were destroyed. Officially Germans confirmed destruction of 35 planes, in propaganda purposes real digit was decreased. They repeated this trick and later. So it is wrong to speak that Soviet data about shot down planes is not confirmed by German sources. Staffs of Luftwaffe formations became very “experienced” in counting own casualties. They didn’t counted as destroyed that planes which were missed in action and which crashed during emergency landing on German territory. Final digit was decreased and was noted in day report, planes which were excluded from final digit were added to digit of casualties of later days or even months. It was made for making casualties level “acceptable”. In result of suchtricks amount of lost planes decreased in some times. It was possible to find truth only on base of analysis of statistics of planes, which left the ranks for month, quarter or year if to add every Luftwaffe days report. And this was not possible always. According approximate estimations Luftwaffe lost approximately 100,000 planes during WWII. There are known data of staff of Luftwaffe only for period from September, 1st of 1939 to December, 31st of 1944 that Luftwafe lost in combats 91,925 planes in all fronts. It is very difficult to count amount of German planes, which were lost in Eastern Front but in any case it is not less than 2/3 of all destroyed German planes. For example, only in 1941 Germans lost in USSR 3827 planes or 82% of total casualties… According Soviet data Germans lost 3700 planes in Kursk battle (in Kursk defense operation and in counter offensives in Orel and Belgorod directions)… Part 3 1943 was rotating point in battles of Eastern Front. Like large meat grinder Eastern front grinded new and new German units including aircraft. Large amount of “experts” were killed or became POWs. Even caution and prudence in air combats didn’t help them. They tried to not come in combat if they had no supremacy in forces. There were cases when German fighters let for Soviet bombers to bomb their target and attacked them on the way back – they had hope that Soviet pilots are tired and shot most part of ammo, some planes were damaged by fire from land. In combats “experts” used ruse: run away in direction of sun, imitated smoke of damaged plane, used forests during low altitude flights and clouds for camouflage. During air combat two or four “experts” came out from combat and flew over combat area, they waited when alone Soviet plane will separated from main combat group and attacked this plane… In 1941-43 Luftwaffe lost near 15,000 fighters, only 2581 were lost over Germany and Western Europe. Most part of them was destroyed in USSR. Only from 1944 German air forces became equal i8n Eastern and Western fronts. From this time Germans had to increase anti-aircraft defense of Reich but even in that time more than 1/3 of all German forces were in Eastern Front – and these forces were renewed literally every month… If to suppose that Germany lost 100,000 planes and 2/3 of these casualties were in Eastern Front so it is possible to estimate that Germany lost 70,000 planes in Eastern front. If to suppose that non-combat casualties were 30% of common one’s so Germans lost in combats 49,000 planes which were destroyed by Soviet pilots. Commonly it is equal with digits of military historians of USSR… Soviet aircraft lost 106,000 planes for 1941-45, only 46,000 were lost in combats (high level of non-combat casualties was result of more low initial training level of novice pilots than in other countries). In result of these digits (49,000 German planes against 46,000 Soviet planes) it is apparently that German aces didn’t cause horrific losses to Soviet Air Forces. And vice versa, from middle of 1943 Luftwaffe lost much more planes that Soviet Air Forces. For example, 112 pilots of JG 54 left the ranks only in 1943, it means that personnel of JG 54 renewed practically completely. Only 4 of JG 54 pilots who took part in first combats in Eastern Front lived to see end of war in 1945. It is impossible to agree about difficulty of victories in different fronts. His opinion is based only on large amount of victories of German “experts” in Eastern front. If to believe for Spike most part of Luftwaffe pilots wanted first of all to come in Eastern Front for shooting one-two hundreds of enemy planes, that in Northern Africa and only as punishment that were sent in Western Front. Of course, probably it was more difficult for German “expert” of Western Front who lived in comfortable conditions and flew one battle flight for week to shoot down enemy fighter than for his unshaven colleague from East who was exhausted morally and physically but it is more possible that situation was completely another… Even after June of 1944 amount of lost planes was approximately equal in Western and Eastern Fronts. Of course, it was difficult for German pilots to shoot down American “Flying fortress” which was moving in solid formation. German paid 3 fighters for every shooting down “B-17”. But and in Eastern Front in 1944 Germans lost 2-3 planes foe every one Soviet plane – otherwise casualties Air Forces had to outnumber German casualties in large scale. Erich Hartmann commented list of lost pilots of JG 52: “This list of casualties helps to destroy myth that it was easier to fight against Russians. Especially it is true about actions in 1943 and later. It is interesting but famous German aces which fought in the West and were transferred in East were killed or became POWs very soon. Remember, for example, such “experts” like Hans Han, Zigfrid Shnell, Gerhard Homut, Erich Leye…” The later the war the more difficult it was for German “experts” to win. In 1943 and especially in 1944 and 1945 Soviet Aircraft became to use widely land guidance stations and echelonment of fighters in different altitudes. Soviet fighters became to fly “free hunter” missions so they become to operate near German airfields. Large amount of planes and experienced pilots let for Soviet Command to begin constant patrol over Soviet airfields In the end of war fighter aircraft of USSR was powerful force. New “La” and “Yak” planes were not worse that best planes of other countries. But combat experience of Soviet pilots was much more than experience of US and British pilots. For 4 years of combats Soviet Air Forces got set of excellent aces. First ten pilots of USSR shot down 568 enemy planes, ten best British pilots shot down 310 planes, ten best US pilots – 279. Best US ace, Richard Bong, shot down 40 enemy planes, best British one, Johnny Johnson, - 38. In Soviet aircraft 45 fighter-pilots had more than 40 victories for everyone…” The end Sorry guys for such long post, but it worth reading ^^
|
|
#7
05-04-2009, 12:05 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
this information is just for another side of the story helping u not to lost in one s
This information is just for another side of the story helping u not to be lost in only one side..
I want to add some more about words of Korniukhin about “Aces of Luftwaffe” 1. I found and read book "Erich Hartmann - Blond knight of Reich". I agree with opinion of Korniukhin about this book. For example, in this book authors wrote that Soviet ace Lavrinenkov landed and strangled in the land German pilot from crashed plane. Soviet historian asked about this Lavrinenkov in 60th years. Lavrinenkov said that is was false and that "it is good that authors of book didn't write that he gnawed throat of German pilot with help of teeth -  "2. Only digits of combat casualties in Eastern front 49,000 German planes and 46,000 Soviet planes showed that Germans couldn't to shoot down so many planes like they speak. If Germans speak true digits so casualties of Soviet Air Forces in WWII have to be some times more than German ones in Eastern front. But digits are approximately equal... 3. And about supremacy of amount of Soviet planes in air combats... Germans constantly speak about it but digits of planes which took part in combats do not show large supremacy of Soviet aircraft in 1941-44 like Germans speak (not less than 3-5 times according their opinion) I read books of Mike Spik “Aces of Allies” and “Aces of Luftwaffe”. And I didn’t find in these books information about Soviet aces. Only once Mike Spike said about Alexander Pokryshkin. It looked like Germans fought in East Front against Hordes of Russian fighters with bad pilots. It looked like Russian fighter aircraft could to win only because supremacy in amount of planes. Some time ago I read small book of Korniuhov “Soviet fighters in WWII’ and I want to write some information which will be interesting for you. Source (in Russian) - http://militera.lib.ru/research/kornyukhin/index.html Part 1 1. June, 22 of 1941. Germans destroyed most part of Soviet Aircraft in the land. But remainders of Soviet fighters had combats with German planes. Commonly Germans won in this battle but it was not so easy for Germans. There are some examples. 127th Fighter Air Regiment (FAR) in Grodno region destroyed 20 German planes. Especially difficult was combat in 10:Am – two squadrons fought against 40 German planes. Germans lost 4 planes, Russians lost 5 planes. But it was good result for archaic I-153 fighters in combat against famous JG27. 123th FAR (I-153 fighters) shot down more than 20 German planes. Major Surin shot down 3 planes, I.Kalabushkin shot down 5 German planes. 12th FAR (I-153 fighters) lost 36 planes during first German bombings. Remaining I-153 of 12th FAR later shot down 11 German planes, own casualties were 3 planes. And there is very amazing example. On June, 22 of 1941 over Grosulovo airfield 27 Ju-88 with escort of 9 Bf109 tried to bomb Soviet bombers which were in the land. Captain A. Karmanov (4th FAR) in the MiG-3 plane accidentally was in the sky here. He alone (!!!) attacked German planes, could to shoot down one Ju-88 and broke order of German bombers. Then he had combat against 9 (!!!) German fighters. As result of combat one Bf109 crashed to the ground and Karmanov’s plane was damaged but Soviet pilot could to land in damaged plane. 2. Air Battle for Moscow It is unknown foe West people episode of WWII, I didn’t read about this in any West sources. In July of 1941 Hitler ordered to destroy Moscow from air. But Germans lost Air Battle for Moscow. Most German attacks were night raids of large groups of bombers. Air defense of Moscow had length 250 km from Moscow. It consisted in that time from 1000 flaks, 585 fighters, 680 searchlights, 303 barrage balloon, 580 air sentry posts, radar installations. In first night (21/22 of July) raid took part 220 bombers, 22 bombers were shot down. In the next night Germans sent 200 bombers, 15 bombers were lost. In July Germans sent 964 bombers against Moscow but only 40 could to breakthrough and 121 bombers were shot down. Moscow was excellent protected from Air Strikes and Luftwaffe couldn't to break Air Defense of Moscow. For July of 1941 to April of 1942 German bombers made 8000 battle flight against Moscow but only 234 planes (3%) could to reach Moscow and 952 bombers were destroyed. Moscow had no serious damages. 3. Soviet pilots of first period of war. Even in bad conditions of 1941 and 1942 Soviet Air Forces had many good aces. Remember, that -Soviet pilots flew in archaic fighters, -they often had no radio, -they had no land guidance service, -they flew in conditions of German Air supremacy, -they often fought against elite Luftwaffe units, - Commanding often sent Soviet fighters in actions against German land troops. There are some examples. A. Antonenko (13th FAR of Baltic Fleet, I-16) shot down 11 enemy planes for one month of combats before he crashed on July, 25 of 1941. P. Brinko (13th FAR of Baltic Fleet, I-16) shot down 15 enemy planes for 3 months of combats before he was shot down by flak fire on September, 14 of 1941. Boris Safonov (I-16, Hurricane) was most famous in the West ace of that time. He took part in Air Cover of Northern Convoys. He crashed in the sea on May, 30 of 1942 when he covered PQ-16 convoy. He shot down 22 planes personally and 3 in group, he had 234 battle flights. In the time from June, 22 of 1941 to April, 8 of 1942 Luftwaffe lost 4948 planes in East front. 4. In August of 1942 heavy combats began in approaches of Stalingrad. Main task of Soviet fighters was to slow down German advance. German bombers which tried to breakthrough to bridges and troops gatherings became main target of Soviet fighters. 434th FAR f major Kleshchev destroyed 36 enemy planes for 18 days of combats. On August, 5th pilot of 183rd FAR M. Baranov covered crossing across Don. He attacked enemy planes from sun direction as leader of 4-Yak-1 group and shot down 2 Bf109 and 1 Ju87 before thousands of Soviet infantrymen. And when his ammo became empty he made ram attack against Bf109 and parachuted after this. Here is later example about activity of Soviet ace Golubev (39 personal and 12 group victories) but it only proves his skill. He began war in June of 1941 and flew in Leningrad region in I-16 plane even in January of 1943. In January of 1943 he shot down 2 modern excellent Fw190A-4 (JG54) in I-16 which was archaic even in June of 1941!!!! And here are some words about women-fighter-aces. Lidiya Litvyak was most successful woman-fighter ace of WWII. Soviet Air Forces had some woman Air Units, most famous were women-pilots of low speed night bombers Po-2 (U-2) (archaic biplans). But some girls were fighter-pilots. Lidiya Litvyak firstly became fighter of 586th Women Fighter Air Regiment, it was Regiment of Air Defense System of Volga region. In September of 1942 4 girls were transferred in "men" 437th FAR in Stalingrad. On next day after arriving Lidiya shot down Ju88. On September, 14th Litvyak with other girl, E.Budanova, shot down BF109. Pilot of BF109 parachuted and landed near Soviet Airfield. German expert with Iron Cross was amazed when he saw Soviet fighter pilot who shot down his - young blonde girl. Later Lidiya Litvyak fought in 9th Guardian FAR and in 73rd FAR. Lidiya Litvyak (73rd FAR) on March, 22 of 1943 in Yak-1 plane alone attacked and shot down bomber and for next 15 minutes had combat against 6 (!!!) Bf109 of bomber’s escort. She even could to shoot down one Bf109 in this combat. She was wound in leg and shoulder but she could escape and to land damaged plane in fuselage in her airfield. Lidiya Litvyak was killed in action on August, 1st of 1943. She had 12 personal and 4 group victories. Other famous girl, her friend, Ekaterina Budanova was killed in action in summer of 1943. She had 10 victories in 266 combat flights. 5. Kuban Air battle In April-June of 1943 large Air battle over Kuban region began. Germans tried to cover troops in Kuban and to destroy Soviet Fighter Units before Kursk battle. This battle finished only in June of 1943. Germans firstly had 1000 planes (38% of East front aircraft) including 250 fighters (JG3, JG51, JG52, JG54). Soviet Air Forces firstly had 600 planes. Battle was very heavy. Often in short part of frontline (25-30 km) there were 40 air combats with 50-80 planes from both sides in every combat. Both sides sent reinforcements and replacements. In this battle Alexander Pokryshkin on April, 12 of 1943 in P-39 “Aircobra” shot down 4 Bf109, on April, 28 he shot down 5 Ju87 for one combat. Germans knew Pokryshkin, Germans warned everyone with the radio “Achtung, achtung, Pokryshkin is in air”. Germans lost air Battle over Kuban. From April, 17 to June,7 of 1943 Germans lost (according Soviet data) 1100 planes including 800 in the Air combats. Only JG52 lost 30% of pilots for this time. Soviet Air Forces lost 750 planes. 6. Battle in Air during Kursk battle in July of 1943 During Kursk battle over heavy Air Combats were over land troops. On July, 6 of 1943 during Kursk battle 15 fighters La-5 of 88th Guardian FAR were returning after covering of soviet troops in region Olhovatka. Lieutenant A.Gorovets was last in fighters order. Suddenly he saw group of 20 Ju-87, which emerges from the clouds with full bomb load. Pilot’s radio was damaged and he could not to warn other pilots. Lieutenant Gorovets decided to attack formation of Ju-87 alone. Combat occurred directly over positions of Soviet infantry and wonder-struck Soviet soldiers saw 9 (!!!) German planes which were shot down by the alone Soviet fighter. Remaining Ju-87 went away without bombing of Soviet positions. He shot down 9 planes in one combat!!! And it was directly over heads of Soviet infantry. On July, 7 of 1943 during Kursk battle pilot of Yak-7B of 150th Guardian FAR Sh. Kiriya had combat against 6 Bf109. Firstly he shot down one German fighter from distance of 70-100 meters. Then his plane was hit but pilot continued combat. In spite of pain from burns pilot could to shot down 2 more German fighters in burning plane. After combat pilot could to land in fuselage in territory of Soviet troops. For the time between July, 5 and July, 9 (only 4 days) every side lost more than 500 planes. Germans lost battle in the Air over Kursk region. According Soviet data in July-August (only 2 months) of 1943 Luftwafe lost 3700 planes in the East Front during Kursk battle (these casualties include casualties both during Soviet defensive part of battle and during counteroffensive in Orel and Kharkov-Belgorod directions which are considered one battle in USSR and Russia). 7. One later example During covering of important bridge in Dnepr river (order was - to cover BY ANY COST) in 1943 Ivan Kozhedub stayed alone and saw that 18 German Ju-87 prepared for bombings. He attacked them, he came inside of their battle order and his manoeuvres scared German pilots. He shot down 1 Ju-87 but main result was that very important bridge was not destroyed. 8. For the time from June, 22 of 1941 to December, 31 of 1943 German Fighter Aircraft lost 15000 fighters. And only 17% of these planes were lost over West Europe and Germany. 9. Here is list of best Soviet Aces of WWII 1) I. Kozhedub - 62 personal victories in 330 battle flights. 2) A. Pokryshkin - 59 personal and 6 group victories in 650 battle flights. 3) G. Rechkalov - 56 personal and 5 group victories in 450 battle flights. 4) N. Gulaev - 53 personal and 4 group victories in 240 battle flights. 5) K. Evstigneev - 53 personal and 3 group victories in 296 battle flights. 6) A. Vorozheikin - 52 personal victories in 400 battle flights. 7) D. Glinka - 50 personal victories in 300 battle flights.  N. Skomorohov - 46 personal and 8 group victories in 605 battle flights.9) A. Koldunov - 46 personal and 1 group victories in 412 battle flights. 10) N. Krasnov - 44 personal victories in 400 battle flights. Most famous were Ivan Kozhedub and Alexander Pokryshkin. I said only very small information from book of Korniuhov. 10. Here is data from other sources about using of women in Soviet Aircraft: In autumn of 1941 famous Soviet woman-pilot M.M.Raskova offered to organize 3 women Air Regiments – fighter (586th), bomber (587th) and night bomber (588th). 586th FAR was equipped by Yak-1 planes and became to operate in April of 1942 in Air Defense System of Saratov. Women-fighter pilots covered from German bombers industrial centers and railroad stations of Saratov, Voronezh, Kastornyy. In September-November of 1942 1st squadron of regiment took part in Stalingrad battle. Regiment fought during all war and finished war in Vienna in 1945, women-fighter pilots of regiment had 125 Air Combats and shot down 38 enemy planes, Ekaterina Zelenko made first (and alone) in history “woman” air ram attack. Most famous was “women” 588th Regiment of “Nebesnyy tihohod” (“Sky Slow-walkers”) (Russian name of night slow speed bombers, there was famous Soviet movie “Sky slow-walker” about women-pilots of such planes) – 20 crews- under command of E.D.Bershanskaya. It arrived in Southern Front in the end of May of 1942 in 218th Night Bomber Air Division of 4th Air Army. This Air regiment was equipped by U-2 planes, “modified for drop of bombs”. Firstly “modifying” meant two baskets for carrying of hand grenades and mortar shells which had to be dropped manually. (U-2 was civil two-seater low speed biplane (completely non-armed) which was used for training of new pilots (“U” means “uchebnyy” (“training”)) and for some other purposes. Po-2 was military version of U-2 with rear machine-gun (“PO” means “Polikarpov” (name of aircraft designer))). “Night Witches” (German name) took part in actions in Donets Basin, Caucasus, Sevastopol, Mogilev, Warsaw, Danzig. Regiment made 23,672 Combat Flights, in the end of war its name was 46th Guardian Women Air Regiment. It is history of only one Air Regiment of “Night Witches”, may be also were other such regiments (Germans speak about such planes in Stalingrad but as I know mainly women were pilots of such planes and 588th Women Air Regiment was not in Stalingrad (according list of region of its actions)) But it is very possible that some girls were single pilots in usual "men" Air Units.
|
|
#8
05-04-2009, 12:33 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Quote:
It is too easy (and ansolutely wrong) to try to describe the strategy and tactics of the Soviet strategy in a few words. It was different in different time periods and in different theaters of operations. The same is about the Western Allies Air Forces strategy and tactics.
|
|
#9
05-04-2009, 03:24 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
It does you no credit to misspell an author's name because you dislike their book.
The nazi propaganda system certainly existed, but so did a considerable soviet one. Stalin was not a nice person, he had millions of Russians killed before the start of the war, and this is often alluded to as a cause of the soviet forces being inexperienced. A large number of their leaders were shot for allegedly not being good enough socialists, whether they were technically competant at performing their duties or not.
|
|
#10
05-04-2009, 03:33 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
Linear Mode
