Ground targets are way too hard to see in Sim mode.

Bael · #1 08-08-2009, 05:57 AM

After playing a lot of Sim mode lately I'm starting to question it's lack of HUD augmentation. The second demo mission is incredibly frustrating on Simulation simply due to the fact that ground targets aren't getting drawn until you're already right on-top of them. The zoom view doesn't even help because the objects still don't seem to appear any farther out - and by the time they pop into view you're close enough to not need a zoom to see them in the first place.

Graphics tech isn't quite to the point where players have the clarity of vision a real pilot would have, so I don't think adding some HUD augmentation to Sim mode is out of line. Not the full-on every enemy is highlighted stuff from arcade mode, but maybe something as simple as temporary icon overlays on enemies you've view through zoom view. Kind of like a 'reveal' which puts the normal target icons over them for a timed duration - so after the first pass on ground targets you can more easily track them.

juz1 · #2 08-08-2009, 06:19 AM

look for muzzle flash...

maybe you might like to suggest this in the suggestions to dev thread

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Antinko1 · #3 08-08-2009, 12:40 PM

The best advice I can give is to learn the geography of the place you're flying over. This way, you should be able to learn where enemies are and narrow down where they might be so that when you approach the area, you have a smaller area to scan.

I know it sounds retarded but having come from flying jet sims where I had the privelage of a tarmac runway, I found IL-2 extremely frustrating because I had to learn how to work out what a grass airstrip looks like! It took me a while but I got there in the end and I found that similar practices can be applied to locating ground targets.

I hope this helps.

Bael · #4 08-08-2009, 06:07 PM

Thank you for the tips, these are actually techniques I'm already using. But even using both of these methods I do not feel the current system works well enough.

The root of the problem is simply that ground target models do not appear soon enough. If you're close enough to see the muzzle flash, the model should be visible as well - and thats currently not the case. You see a muzzle flash, line up on it (they're not pinpoint accurate), and the model doesn't appear until you're already too close to make any necessary corrections to your path - even if you zoom your view in!

And don't forget targets like rail cars which don't have visual aids like muzzle flashes. Just fly low over the railroad tracks and watch as the train cars suddenly just pop into view well below your sights. It's a bit odd that you can see trees farther off in the distance than you can see train cars. The same with Tiger tanks parked in the middle of snowy fields, you can see the flash from 2 miles away but can't actually see the tank until you're practically close enough to spit on it.

The_Goalie_94 · #5 08-08-2009, 06:55 PM

Heres an idea...just blow up everything with rockets...i completed TIGER HUNT on sim by blowing everything on the ground that moved...IT WAS FUN!!!!

Bael · #6 08-08-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Goalie_94

Heres an idea...just blow up everything with rockets...i completed TIGER HUNT on sim by blowing everything on the ground that moved...IT WAS FUN!!!!

Quite a feat, given that you only get 40 rockets - provided you don't get shot down or crash.

Xx RTEK xX · #7 08-08-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bael

After playing a lot of Sim mode lately I'm starting to question it's lack of HUD augmentation. The second demo mission is incredibly frustrating on Simulation simply due to the fact that ground targets aren't getting drawn until you're already right on-top of them. The zoom view doesn't even help because the objects still don't seem to appear any farther out - and by the time they pop into view you're close enough to not need a zoom to see them in the first place.

Graphics tech isn't quite to the point where players have the clarity of vision a real pilot would have, so I don't think adding some HUD augmentation to Sim mode is out of line. Not the full-on every enemy is highlighted stuff from arcade mode, but maybe something as simple as temporary icon overlays on enemies you've view through zoom view. Kind of like a 'reveal' which puts the normal target icons over them for a timed duration - so after the first pass on ground targets you can more easily track them.

How hard do you think it was for WWII pilots way back in the day when they didn't have HUD electronic assistance display of targets? It is Simulation Mode......they are simply simulating what it would have been like in WWII. You have to have a good memory of where the targets are, remember the terrain after a couple flybys. Watch for the muzzle flash from the cannons. Make a mental note of which direction the targets are lined up.

Are they lined up parallel, 5 per column, north to south, or are they lined up east to west. Use that information you gain on your first and second pass to line up your attack runs. If they lined up North to South, then attack them from the north or the south so you can straffe more targets in one pass. Use your rockets wisely. In this game they seem to be pretty accurate at a certain distance. Line up the target in the HUD glass and launch, then aquire a new target quick.

If you are good, you can take out one group of targets in less than 3 passes. One colum in one pass.

The tanks are harder because they are more scattered and hidden in the trees. Again, remember their locations. Keep that image in your mind, so when you circle around for another pass, you know instinctively where those targets are going to be.

If my advice doesn't help you out, then go back to playing Realistic so you can have access to the HUD target icons. Oh and I'm playing on a 50" 1080p DLP and I can see the targets just fine without zoom. Try playing on a bigger tv, or invest in a pair of LCD goggles like the iTheater.....get the highest resolution you can buy. It's like looking at a 70" from 12 ft away.

Bael · #8 08-09-2009, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xx RTEK xX

How hard do you think it was for WWII pilots way back in the day when they didn't have HUD electronic assistance display of targets? It is Simulation Mode......they are simply simulating what it would have been like in WWII. You have to have a good memory of where the targets are, remember the terrain after a couple flybys. Watch for the muzzle flash from the cannons. Make a mental note of which direction the targets are lined up.

...

If my advice doesn't help you out, then go back to playing Realistic so you can have access to the HUD target icons. Oh and I'm playing on a 50" 1080p DLP and I can see the targets just fine without zoom. Try playing on a bigger tv, or invest in a pair of LCD goggles like the iTheater.....get the highest resolution you can buy. It's like looking at a 70" from 12 ft away.

Again, thanks for the advice - but I have to stick to my guns on this. And it's not a hardware problem on my part, my 46" 1080p LCD works beautifully.

It is an attempt to simulate the difficulty real WWII pilots had acquiring targets - but to think you have the same level of vision clarity within this game that a real pilot would have is insane. We're playing a game at 720 resolution at 30ish frames per second, which is way less than the human eye can see, and to further compound the problem the models aren't even being drawn from a certain distance. I can fly around in Tiger hunt, and I have many times, and watch as the ground targets 'pop' into view - and that happens way later than it should. There's a huge difference between not being able to see your target cause it's hidden in the brush, and not being able to see your target because it's just not being drawn. If there was so much as a speck you could see from farther distances this wouldn't be an issue.

I know there's a huge tendency for Sim gamers to fight any type of HUD elements, but for the most part HUDs are just there to supplement players with information a real person would have that the technology can't accurately reproduce. In this case the HUD could point out things REAL pilots would be able to see. And from what I gathered in the suggestions thread, the original IL-2 for the PC even had this sort of a system.

thundermuffin · #9 08-09-2009, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bael

Again, thanks for the advice - but I have to stick to my guns on this. And it's not a hardware problem on my part, my 46" 1080p LCD works beautifully.

It is an attempt to simulate the difficulty real WWII pilots had acquiring targets - but to think you have the same level of vision clarity within this game that a real pilot would have is insane. We're playing a game at 720 resolution at 30ish frames per second, which is way less than the human eye can see, and to further compound the problem the models aren't even being drawn from a certain distance. I can fly around in Tiger hunt, and I have many times, and watch as the ground targets 'pop' into view - and that happens way later than it should. There's a huge difference between not being able to see your target cause it's hidden in the brush, and not being able to see your target because it's just not being drawn. If there was so much as a speck you could see from farther distances this wouldn't be an issue.

I know there's a huge tendency for Sim gamers to fight any type of HUD elements, but for the most part HUDs are just there to supplement players with information a real person would have that the technology can't accurately reproduce. In this case the HUD could point out things REAL pilots would be able to see. And from what I gathered in the suggestions thread, the original IL-2 for the PC even had this sort of a system.

Couldn't agree with you more. I've posted a good suggestion (just actually posted it on the thread about moving targets) that would imply the pilot's memory. You/'re pilot would have remembered where that target was, and the game would put a little dot or some marker over it (not unlike what they do for planes at long distance). It would fade over time or disappear if you focused on somethings else.

Xx RTEK xX · #10 08-09-2009, 08:58 PM

Bael,
How about if they made the Realistic mode have the same physics and attributes as Simulation, on it has the on screen target assistance? That way it wouldn't affect the achievements of Simulation.

The problem with target assistance on Simulation is that it would just make it easier. Simulation is not meant to be easier. The perfect solution is to just make the only difference between Simulation and Realistic be the target assistance.