Two Yak-9UT questions that I have

[IceFire]

First to start off with.. I really like the Yak series of fighters and I've been building a few single player campaigns for them as time allows. I'll probably be releasing the bunch individually sometime after the 4.10 release. So when I'm online and I have the option I'll usually pick a Yak instead of the La-5 or MiG-3 that everyone seems to fly (depending on the year).

Today I was having a blast in the Yak-9UT and remembering how much fun it was when this plane was added to the game. But I have two questions, one that has bugged me a for a while, and one I just noticed.

1) Whenever I read about the Yak-9UT the armament seems to list various different configurations. Usually they state that the 20mm ShVAK hub mount is changed to either NS-23, N-37, N-45, etc. For the synchronized guns I only ever read that the two 12.7mm UBS were replaced by B-20 cannons. In-game the armament is N-37 and two ShVAK 20mm which doesn't match any of the descriptions I know. Any idea why?

2) In IL-2 compare, the Yak-9UT armament is listed as:
Shvak 120
Shvak 120
Sh37ki 30

I always assumed it was the same cannon on the Yak-9T and 9M and those are both listed as NS-37.

When I tried to look up Sh37 I couldn't find anything.

Anyone able to shed some light on either of these two?

[BK_JG27_Treiber]

1: The prototype Yak-9UT had the N-37, all others had the NS-23.

2: The Sh-37 was a predecessor to the N-37.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by BK_JG27_Treiber

1: The prototype Yak-9UT had the N-37, all others had the NS-23.

2: The Sh-37 was a predecessor to the N-37.

Yep ....

Shpitalny Sh-37 cannon was very unreliable and really only a prototype. it was fitted to the LaGG-3 and Il-2's for testing.

As the Sh-37 testing was unsuccessful, Nudelman and Suranov then developed the NS-37 which used the same ammunition but was more reliable. The NS-37 saw operational use late war.

Eventually, as the NS-37 was not really suited to air to air combat it was eventually replaced (1946?) by the less powerful, lighter short recoil version, the N-37 .

Some more details here:

http://russianammo.org/Russian_Ammun...Page_37mm.html

[IceFire]

So... the 9UT in IL-2 has all of its guns wrong? Or do we have the prototype modeled? In which case it still has the ShVak's wrong... they should be B-20s correct?

Maybe we can get it fixed?

[koivis]

Here is a good link about Yak-9UT
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/yak1...-andermann.htm

"In early 1945, Plant n.166 delivered 282 machines armed with one NS-23 and two syncronised B-20S guns."

So, this means only some prototypes experimented with N-37, NS-45 & NS-57 guns, ALL others indeed had the armament listed above. Also, the game version has indeed totally wrong armament.

The errors in armament found in game (using Il-2 compare) is not limited to this example, here are some:

Yak-3 VK-107 currently has a UB machine gun on the cowling and a ShVAK gun firing throught the prop hub. The real Tbilisi production had two synchronised B-20S guns and one B-20 hub-gun. That is about double the firepower than of the ingame version.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/yak3...yak3vk107.html

Both versions of MiG-9 should have two NS-23 guns instead of the VYa-23s now modelled. The two weapons were completely different in every respect, in fact the only similarity was the caliber of the barrel. Ammunition (VYa used a larger cartridge case), dimensions and weight (Vya 68 kg vs NS 37 kg), operating mechanism (Vya was gas operated, NS used short recoil) were different. Both had approximately the same firing rate (550-600 rpm) but VYa's muzzle velocity and thus armour penetration was greater (905 vs 690 m/s).

Seems like the NS-23 is not modelled at all, since the other early jet, Yak-15 uses two B-20 guns instead of two NS-23s.

A6M5b is still (since 2004) missing it's 7,7 mm Type 97 machine gun, located next to a 13,2 mm (wrongly modelled as a German MG-131) in the nose.
Also, IJN Type 97s found in other Japanese planes are in fact MG-15s, IJA Type 89s are Browning .303s, and IJN Type 99 cannons (of which two completely different models existed) are all German MG FF guns.
IJN fighters N1K1-J, N1K2-J and both J2Ms use IJA Ho-5 cannons (this would have caused a scandal in WW2 Japan). Also, J2M3 should have the two different types of Type 99 cannon side by side in the wing, with of course had different ballistics.
German weapons seem to have been used in a few other aircraft, including MS.406 and IAR.81.
Even more interestingly (also since 2004), Ki-43 has two Browning .50 cals (!) on the nose, while the Ki-61 has the correct Ho-103s in that position.
Ki-84c has 30 mm guns labelled as "Ho-115", while in real life (if even then) they were Ho-155. The gun seems to be correctly modelled, as it is ridiculously powerful.
The same Sh-37 (as described by WTE_Galway) can be found also on the Ki-46-Kai night fighter.

Last, but not least: the Hungarian built Me 210Ca-1 "Zerstörer" apparently has a 75 mm PaK-40 gun instead of the 40 mm Bofors. Ehhh....

Either Il-2 Compare is complete carbage, or there are indeed many errors and omissions in the game. It would be really awesome if Daidalos Team could do something for this.

[Avimimus]

You missed the tail stinger in the He-111! It should be an Mg-17 instead of an Mg-15!

[IceFire]

Sounds like it would be a good idea to devote a little time to try and sort out some of the armament problems. Of course that may be a massive undertaking.

IL-2 Compare does have one thing wrong that I know of. Whatever the two guns on the MiG-9 are ...they are the same on the Yak-15.

[IceFire]

koivis or anyone else with data... I'd like to gather some of this information up and send to Team Daidalos for consideration. The best thing we can do right now is to gather some documentation. First hand if we can... second hand and published in books if we can't.

I've been looking through the books I have right now and it's hard to find Yak data that I need. I'll look on some of the other types.

[TinyTim]

Hey Ice, I have the Yak-9U pilot manual, but there's no mention of the UT version in it. Turning over to second hand - there's probably no author I'd trust more on Russian world war 2 aviation than Yefim Gordon.

In his excellent book "Soviet combat aircraft of the Second World War - Volume 1: Single engined fighters" this is what he has to say on Yak-9UT armament:

Yak-9UT
The Yak-9U and the other Yak variants were used to test a range of armament alternatives; 23mm, 37mm and even 45mm guns. To install the last of these it was necessary to remove the synchronised machine guns, B-20 synchronised guns being installed instead. The possibility of installing different enginemounted guns without the need for airframe modification was the design's most valuable feature, allowing a rapid change of armament, according to WS requirements, during series-production. The aircraft was designated Yak-9UT. Clearly, each armament installation a different effect upon weight, centre of gravity position and flying performance, but the speed was the same as the Yak-9U. Handling was almost the same except for elevator load, which was heavy, this being the aircraft's most serious shortcoming. Main advantage of the Yak-9UT was its heavy salvo weight, 13.2Ib/sec (6kg/sec), using the NS-37 and two B-20s. This was a formidable figure at the end of the Second World War, even for the Germans, who were trying to increase the salvo weight of their aircraft as much as possible for combat with the redoubtable Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress. Testing of the Yak-9UT began in March 1945 and was completed, very successfully, after the war's end, but many of the 282 built took part in air combats over Berlin during the last days of the war.

Another great resource from him is "Yakovlev's piston engined fighters", this is a Yak-9UT section:

Yak-9U versions with reinforced armament

Like many other basic Subtypes of the Yaks, the Yak-9U served as a kind of proving ground for developing different armament options. In one machine provision was made for replacing the ShVAK-20 cannon in factory conditions by more potent cannons - an NS-23, an N-37 or even an N-45; in the latter case one of the two synchronised weapons in the front upper decking had to be deleted to lighten the machine. Synchronised machineguns were replaced by new B-20 cannons (synchronised, of course).

The possibility of installing different engine-mounted cannons without any major redesign of the aircraft was a distinct advantage, making it possible to switch series production quickly to this or that type of armament, depending on the requirements of the Air Force. The NS-37 and its derivative, a 45-mm cannon, were experimental lightened weapons developed by OKB-16. A prototype fighter featuring this kind of armament (c/n 39166083, ie, Batch 39, Omsk aircraft factory No. 166, 83rd aircraft in the batch) was built under A. Yakovlev's direct guidance in February and allocated the designation Yak-9UT, the T denoting tahnkovyy (tank-busting).

Naturally, each armament version had its own all-up weight, CG position and flight performance. But the speeds were identical to those of the production Yak-9U. The handling qualities of the Yak-9UT were virtually the same as those of its predecessors, except for the control stick forces from the elevator: they proved to be too high, and that was the most serious shortcoming of the aircraft.

On the credit side was the weight of fire: with the installation comprising one NS-37 and two B-20s, it amounted to 6.0 kg/sec (13,2 Ib/sec) as compared to the Yak-9U's 2.81 kg/sec (6.2 Ib/sec). In the final stages of the war such sizeable figures commanded respect even from the Germans who also strove to increase the firepower as much as possible in order to fight the sturdy and highly survivable Boeing B-17 Flying Fortresses and Consolidated B-24 Liberators. Tests of this aircraft were conducted by engineer G. A. Sedov and pilot A. Manucharov at Nil WS in March 1945. The Yak-9UT proved to be considerably more stable under different manoeuvres compared to the Yak-9T and Yak-9K, owing primarily to lesser recoil of the cannon and greater speed envelope. The aircraft was recommended for series production, and Plant No. 166 delivered 282 machines with the engine-mounted NS-23 cannon and two synchronised B-20S cannon. An important stage in the history of the VK-1 07A-powered fighters was the emergence of the 'etalon' (production standardsetter) for 1945. The main tasks facing the Yakovlev OKB were to eliminate the main defects of the Yak-9 VK-1 07A; to ensure a top speed of 600 km/h (373 mph) at sea level and 700 km/h (435 mph) at the second rated altitude with the engine at the maximum rating; to ensure a climb to 5,000 m (16,400 ft) within 4.1 minutes and a service ceiling of 11 ,000 m (36,080 ft); to achieve a cruising range of 900 km (559 miles) and a range of 1,200 km (746 miles) in optimum cruise mode. The aircraft was built, using a production Omsk-built airframe (c/n 41166038 ). An important feature of the machine was its ability to accept alternative versions of armament in a manner similar to the Yak-9UT. The fighter was tested with three B-20s (two of them synchronised) and an all-up weight of 3,145 kg (6,935 Ib). Nil WS specialists noted the advantages of the alternative armament options, the improved external finish and pointed out the need for using an antenna mast. At the same time they stated that only some of the Yak-9U's shortcomings had been eliminated. Thus, the installation of a bigger oil cooler with greater frontal area and introduction of an additional oil pump led to better engine running at nominal revs only at high altitudes. As before, considerable oil spill from the breather occurred at maximum power. In the course of 45 flights performed by the fighter, four engine changes (!) had to be made. In the last engine (No.527-21), which was part of an 'improved batch', the crankshaft main bearings broke down during the 14th hour of engine running. An extremely disappointed Aleksandr Yakovlev ordered the aircraft with c/n 41-038 to be withdrawn from testing and returned to the OKB so that development work could be resumed. All subsequent improvements introduced into the design came after the end of the war.

Bottom line - according to Yefim Gordon, all production Yak-9UTs were armed with NS-23 firing through the spinner and two 20mm Berezin cannons in the cowling. Prototype tho appears to have been equipped with a NS-37 (and two B-20s). Considering the way the Yak-9UT was layed out, maybe an armament option of 23mm, 37mm or 45mm weapon should be available to player to choose from. Diversity and adaptability of its armament was the very reason for deriving Yak-9UT version from basic Yak-9U in the first place.

[IceFire]

Tim that's wonderful. I'll send it in and see what we can do. A diversity of armament options would be the best possible option.