Crusaders AD 2012

[baronWastelan]

By Kari Huus, msnbc.com

A recent decision by the Marine Corps to reinstate "Crusaders" as the name of its Fighter Attack Squadron 122 — replacing "Werewolves" — and adopting the red cross of the medieval Knights Templar was blasted as unconstitutional and willfully ignorant by a civil rights group Wednesday.

I don’t know that the Marine Corps could do anything more to fuel the cause of jihad," said Mikey Weinstein, founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, a nonprofit organization that advocates church-state separation. "It will directly end up taking lives and maiming members of our military."
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VMFA-122 based out of Beaufort, S.C., used the Crusaders symbol from 1958 up to 2008, when Lt. Col. William Lieblein pointed out that imagery invoking the Christian conquest and colonization of Muslims during the Middle Ages was counterproductive to U.S. soldiers based across the Arab and Islamic world.

"The notion of being a crusader in that part of the world doesn't float," he said, ordering the change to "Werewolves," as reported by the Beaufort Gazette at the time.

Dozens of military members, including Marines in the affected squadron have contacted MRFF reporting that the name has been changed back, and that the symbols had already been painted on the vertical stabilizers of the F-18s.

Weinstein says that members of the military who contacted his group — mostly moderate Protestants and Catholics — felt that the decision was blatantly religious.

"They’re being told, 'the enemy gets to have Allah in their fight. We need to get our Lord and Savior back into our fight'," said Weinstein."

Lt. Cmdr. Wade Weigel, who currently heads the squadron, said he did not think the historic nickname was problematic, according to a report in the Beaufort Gazette on Monday.

"It's a way for our Marines to draw on the service of the Marines before them, and to make their own history under the same name," Weigel told the paper. "As the squadron prepared to celebrate its (70th anniversary), my intent was to return the squadron to the Crusader name since 50 of the squadron's 70 years were under that name. The name change is a reflection of our heritage."

Through the law firm Jones Day, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation on Wednesday sent a letter calling on top Navy and Marine Corps brass to reverse the decision, arguing that the use of Crusaders and the accompanying symbolism violate the Constitution’s separation of church and state, and threatening legal action if it is not changed.

The name change comes just as world media focuses on the trial of Anders Breivik, a Norwegian who admits to killing 77 people in a holy crusade against Islam and multiculturalism. Breivik brandished the Knights Templar symbols in his "manifesto" and YouTube video posted shortly before his bloody rampage.

[CWMV]

Shoot, I rolled out on patrol in Baghdad with this patch on my armor:


The armed forces is no place for this PC BS.
We are (formerly in my case) professional warriors, and as an infantryman I can trace my lineage as such back to these very knights.
tradition is a watchword in any armed forces, second only to mission accomplishment.
I say Kudos to the jar heads for this. I can only speak for the US, but we need to make up our minds about what we want from our armed forces. Do we want them to be well oiled, highly motivated, dedicated hard-core killing machines focused on accomplishing the mission at hand-or rubber bullet toting "peace keeper" cop wann-be's.

[baronWastelan]

Wow, I had no idea the term "jar heads' was still in use

Always a treat to hear from the Infantry. Hopefully this will be a topic where warriors of all nations and creeds can post freely.

[AndyJWest]

"Do we want them to be well oiled, highly motivated, dedicated hard-core killing machines..." Nope. Anyone who dumps their morality when putting on the uniform of a soldier is unfit to serve. (And before you ask, no I haven't - but I've seen the results on those who do, and what it does to them, never mind what it does to the enemy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1758301.stm)

As for claiming to trace your lineage back to Crusaders, yeah, right...

[WTE_Galway]

Actually the The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, more commonly known as the Templars, are an interesting choice as ...

1) they were declared heretical in France and officially disbanded by the church in 1312. They were not exactly exalted heroes of Christendom towards the end.

2) unlike the Hospitallers, who left a humanitarian legacy in the form of St John's ambulance, the Templars were the worlds first corporate bankers, and the first to use control of money to manipulate politics ... which led to their eventual downfall.


To be honest the people who can truly trace their lineage back to the Knights Templar are not the American Marine Corp, it is Goldman Sachs.

[AndyJWest]

Yup. What does history tell us about the Crusades? A series of ridiculous military adventures with no clear goal, no prior understanding of the 'enemy', and no obvious motivation other than as a distraction from domestic problems? You guessed it...

[CWMV]

Ha! Quite right about the banking reference. I did not mean to say the Templar's specifically, but rather men on the ground fighting for a cause. From the modern day to the minutemen at Lexington and Concord to Grog the cave man with club in hand. All have a common lineage in that they are men, with their weapons, fighting for whatever cause at hand and the men at their left and right.

As to morality, well that depends on your point of view. It looks very different from the trenches.
You must remember that before all other concerns the driving force is mission accomplishment.
I believe your operating from a standpoint that is is immoral to kill, and to be good at it. In reality for some its just a job description. A rifleman that cant kill the enemy is as useful as a warm bucket of spit. We need the medic to tend wounds, and the supply clerk to get us beans and bullets. We also need them to be motivated and driven to do their job to the utter best of their abilities else others down the line will suffer. For the grunt that means being a highly motivated soldier dedicated to accomplishing the mission, and his mission is... "The Infantry closes with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver in order to destroy or capture him or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack."
There is nothing nice about this, and nor is there anything immoral.

Just remember that nothing is absolute, including morality.
For that matter as a squad leader it would be immoral of me to take a soldier into combat that wasn't highly motivated, dedicated, and hard as wood pecker lips willing to do what he had to to accomplish the mission.

EDIT 2: Furthermore...lol...that's the reason behind the lineage, and the history, and the patches and the chest pounding. Its just flat motivation. We compare ourselves to those that went before us and try to live up to the standard they set. For us it was the 11B's in Vietnam, for them it was the grunts at Chosin and Omaha Beach, for them the men at the Marne, etc etc all the way back to those valiant crusaders, who did what they had to do fir their god, King and Country.

[AndyJWest]

"before all other concerns the driving force is mission accomplishment." Exactly. You aren't fighting for any other reason than that you have been ordered to. Why?

[CWMV]

If you cant, or I assume more accurately wont understand that then you simply have no base upon which to intelligently discuss military matters.

"I, ----- do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

See to me these words are as close to Holy as you can get. Not much room in there for discourse. I am a servant of my country, first and foremost. I take pride in my service, and in the men that I served with. When my nation calls on me to fight I don't ask why, I surrendered that right when I knowingly singed on the dotted line. I simply grab my rifle, rally my troops and go where I'm told, and do what mission is there waiting for me.

As to "why" people do it, well those reasons are varied. Some do it out of familial tradition, some because they want the college money. I joined because I wanted to serve my country, plain and simple. You don't serve your country, in the military anyway, by questioning orders.
But again if you wont understand that then I'm just typing at a wall...

[CWMV]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

Wow, I had no idea the term "jar heads' was still in use

Always a treat to hear from the Infantry. Hopefully this will be a topic where warriors of all nations and creeds can post freely.

Oh ya! Actually its the nicest way I can think to refer to marines...

+1 on the rest of that too.