Johnnie Johnson - Wing Leader

[|ZUTI|]

Hi all,

just read this very nice book and come across few very interesting notes that Johnnie makes. Mostly regarding Spit MkV vs FW of 1942 era. What got my attention is that he clearly states that a FW was able to follow even his (Johnnies) tightest turns in his Spit. I love the FW, fly it all the time but i am also "smart" enough to follow a spit just 45-70°max in turn and then leave it alone. What do you think that is all about? Is FW in the game that off when it comes to turn ability?

Really, i do not wish to have a war here nor am i complaining. I fly FW B&Z style and do not loose hair with T&B fights but those notes in this book are really interesting. And i got curious . Does anyone have and printed documentation regarding FW performance in turns?

And i urge mods to delete this thread should flaming start.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

Read the account carefully.

Johnson says the turn was so hard, he grayed out, ie. it was at high speed. You don't gray out in a normal 300 kph turn in a Spit. In IL-2, in an initial turn from high speed, a FW-190A4 can follow a Spit V. The circle will be wider for the FW, but it will get around faster.

Then Johnson clearly states he went into a dive, and that the FW-190 followed him through the diving series of turns.

Ie. the turns continue at high speed, (because of the dive acceleration)

In IL-2 if you take an early 190A4, and a Spit V, have the Spit do a dive, followed by a series of turns at high speed, you will find the 190 can follow the Spit.

Johnson probably made the mistake of diving, because a 109 cannot follow a Spit through a series of diving turns. (109 turns worse at high speeds)

The other factor we can't be sure of, is the fuel status of the aircraft in question. Ie. was the FW-190 at 1/4 tank and the Spit nearly full? We don't know. The early 190A's had quite low wingloading comparative to later models, (approx. 41 lbs/sq/ft at full fuel load, compared to 48 lbs for later models) if it was lightly loaded, then it might have come closer to a Spit V in wingloading.

The Royal Aircraft Establishment did at least 5 systematic and exhaustive comparisons between various 190A's and Spitfires, and found all the Spitfires were able to outturn the 190 in normal horizontal turn at medium to low speeds.

Capt. Eric Brown, the Royal Navy Test pilot who evaluated German aircraft wrote the following account of his test of a 190A4:

http://www.pbase.com/chrisdnt/eric_browns_190_report

[|ZUTI|]

Ah yes, ty Buzzsaw, went to search that chapter in the book and he really does mention vertial turning or vertical fight. That does explain it. Quite careless of me to miss that part

And like you pointed out, in some way, fihting did not occur in WW2 as it does now mainly because you got one chance at it No refly. When you were low and slow...

[dflion]

Zuti - Good to see you reading some excellent WWII aerial history ( I have reproduced the pp below in jpeg format for all to read).

"Buzzsaw' has pointed you in the right direction - Capt. Eric Brown is one of the best authorities (he has posted several posts on Ubisoft's IL2 site about our fantastic flight sim)

From Capt. Brown's memoirs - 'In the dive, the Fw190 could leave the Spitfire IX without difficulty and there was no gainsaying that in so far as manoeuvrability was concerned, the German fighter was markedly the superior of the two in all save the tight turn - the Spitfire could not follow in aileron turns and reversals at high speeds and the worst heights for its pilot to engage the Fw190 in combat were between 18,000 feet (5485m) and 22,000 feet (6705m) and at altitudes below 3,000 feet (915m)'

You can play this scenario in mission 11 (Dieppe) of my offline campaign 'Wing Leader' found on Mission4Today.com. I will shortly be updating 'Wing Leader' to 4.09 ver. with many added ground features and some 'tweaked' missions.

DFLion

[|ZUTI|]

Mr. Brown, yes, I was flying a long time with hit joystick settings, but was not that great for online Still, handling was quite nice indeed.

Those are the exact pages i tracked after buzzsaw posted his reply and indeed, there is noted that it was vertical fight.

Thank you both for clearing it for me. I don't know when i will read the book again, but it really is one of the best i've read so far (read quite few of them, enjoy them all, speciall The first and the Last, Galland was also nice writer ).

[Flyby]

I certaily recommend Johnson's book. I've owned it for over twenty years and occassionally go back to it. One of the best reads about fighter combat ever, imho.
Of course I also recommend Donald Caldwell's JG26.Top Guns of the Luftwaffe. It's an A+ read too and one of the best book I've read about the air war on the Western front.
Flyby out

[Vigilant]

I'm reading "Full Circle" by JEJ which I picked up recently for the measly sum of $7 AUD. Great book, great account of air fighting from WWI to present

[Flyby]

Originally Posted by Vigilant

I'm reading "Full Circle" by JEJ which I picked up recently for the measly sum of $7 AUD. Great book, great account of air fighting from WWI to present

quite true, another good read by Johnson. Got that one too.

[Gaston]

Originally Posted by |ZUTI|

Mr. Brown, yes, I was flying a long time with hit joystick settings, but was not that great for online Still, handling was quite nice indeed.

Those are the exact pages i tracked after buzzsaw posted his reply and indeed, there is noted that it was vertical fight.

Thank you both for clearing it for me. I don't know when i will read the book again, but it really is one of the best i've read so far (read quite few of them, enjoy them all, speciall The first and the Last, Galland was also nice writer ).

Ahem, "Vertical Turn" here means a "Vertical Bank turn" (vintage lingo), and the context of the text makes perfectly clear the Spitfire V loses in sustained horizontal turns.

And at real high speed you Black-out in unsustainable turns, and at low speed you gray out in unsustainable turns, which means the fight started at lower or medium speeds at best, and went on to sustainable low-speed horizontal turns.

Despite what Johnny Johnson opines about the impact of the Spitfire Mk IX, the only advantage this later mark had on the Mark V was on the vertical...

So Mk IXs redressed the balance with their superior climb rate, not superior turn rate...

Gaston

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by Gaston

Ahem, "Vertical Turn" here means a "Vertical Bank turn" (vintage lingo), and the context of the text makes perfectly clear the Spitfire V loses in sustained horizontal turns.

And at real high speed you Black-out in unsustainable turns, and at low speed you gray out in unsustainable turns, which means the fight started at lower or medium speeds at best, and went on to sustainable low-speed horizontal turns.

Despite what Johnny Johnson opines about the impact of the Spitfire Mk IX, the only advantage this later mark had on the Mark V was on the vertical...

So Mk IXs redressed the balance with their superior climb rate, not superior turn rate...

Gaston

Gray out, black out, same thing.

OK, so IX wasnt any faster than V?

I dont think you have read the book.... Just another example of turning a vets words to what you want to hear instead of what he says. And not first time of you.