[MattCaspermeyer]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Gave it a whirl since my "give myself some fairly ridiculous troops" option failed to result in a no loss. Couldn't quite do it since the elves still do some pretty ridiculous damage. Not sure if you tested it yourself and found some strange way to beat it. If so, I hope it isn't one of those really narrow set of options to do it.

I did try it out at least twice with some different variants - the narrowness is that you have to use the Trap spell to get you the Trapper Medal and go Diversion Level 2 when you get Level 5 Bagyr. The +25% Trap damage, 3 starting Traps and possibly 3 to 4 more from your Trap spell are very critical to beating the Elven and Human Shelter stacks.

You also have to buy all the units from the Troll Shop (well the level 4 and below ones) because they are what you use to augment your troop stack sizes as you level up after Tristrem.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Maybe we should try to figure out why demoness or vampire works. They actually have nuke spells or a useful tree (for the sake of the early battles). Demoness has diversions which gives her traps AND a very strong summoner unit early on. She also has a nuke so this gives her a very good chance. Vampire has nukes and a special unit that can restore all HP and it is fast enough to kite a fair set of units. Also with the right spell and proper usage of his magic skill tree, he can really turn the tide.

Bagyr's summoner is the Orc Scout - you've got to summon those Wolves, and you also have to use your Shamans to summon totems for the enemy ranged troops to waste their attacks on. The Catapults can also absorb a bit of damage as they are often targeted by the Elven stack. The Orcs / Veteran Orcs are your tanks so use them and your nuke spell is Trap. Don't forget about Healing Totems and the Magic Axe that heals all your troops - these are very key!

In both playthroughs, I ended up putting the Spirit Talkers in reserve as they seemed too fragile for the Elves, but I never had the maximum of them.

You should have an option of 6 different troops to choose from so you should be able to find the right combination.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Orc has, at best, in the might tree has onslaught for initiative which is only useful if you could actually do meaningful damage early game. You simply don't have enough leadership to hit that minimum threshold of useful damage. Nevermind that if you go straight for onslaught, you will miss out on the more useful rage tree abilities later.

Yep - you've hit the nail on the head here! None of the Might Tree skills are useful early - you have to save the Runes to get Diversion, preferably to Level 2 when Bagyr reaches Level 5. A point in Meditation gives you 1 more Trap cast per battle, which is very important.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Orc magic is pretty bad since he has the lowest starting mana and no way to even have it recover mid battle. Even if you got the trap trophy after wasting tons of time, it will hardly be of much use. 2 traps per battle then the snore fest of waiting a few minutes to let your rage disappear and mana go back up.

You are actually dead wrong here - this is the only thing that will tip the balance in your favor.

Did you buy the Clay Bowl from the Troll Shop? That gives you +5 Mana and 3 Traps a battle to work on your Trapper Medal, which should be doable by the time you are done with the Catacombs. This gives you +1 Trap and +25% Trap Damage (only to starting Traps, not cast ones - a very important note). You should also be able to get Level 1 Diversion by Bagyr Level 3 so you should be another +1 Trap and I was able to get Level 2 Diversion by Bagyr Level 5 in both my trials.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Orc needs a LOT more units or better spells to have a good chance to start with some variety. I went in with a demon, dark paladin, orc veterans, and shaman and still failed. I'll admit though the starting orc units was a great surprise with tons of variety and potential but without a solid tank or two, it simply doesn't hold up.

It is all in how you use them - they should be able to hold their own against the Elven and Human stacks if you are using your Shamans / Orc Scouts properly as well as your Orcs (not very tanky, but just enough) and your Orc Veterans (still not as tanky as your Orc Scouts and Shamans so don't forget that). There is a bit of a learning curve here that you may have to go through, but you should be able to do it.

It, honestly, was significantly easier than the Ball of Lightning and Kamikaze Daert playthrough's I did in the unmodded game that I posted about in the No-Loss topic. I was able to even do the big Spider stack in the Catacombs with this troop (although sometimes you can do this stack no problem and get beat by the Elven / Human Shelter stacks).

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Anyway, what's all this talk about using "out of control" units? Will it still count as losses? (guessing it will) also if they are the last units remaining, does combat end?

Yes they count as losses and if they are the last ones remaining, you lose.

Well, thanks for giving it a try, @ckdamascus - post here what your strategy was and what your Tristrem exit troops were and maybe I can give you some more pointers...

I did mention that it would still be very challenging due to how much Bagyr is crippled so please see if you can employ these tips and keep trying!

Also, it is a bit boring, but try the Furious Goblin money farming trick if you have Dryads in one of the 3 Tristrem stacks so that you can buy the Trapper item - that will make it even easier (note that I did not buy this item in either trial so it is not needed, but put there as something to try to get). If you are having trouble, you need to farm as much money as possible and buy all the stuff you can (items and units at least) from the Troll Shop - good luck!

/C\/C\