Sorry for the long delay, but
re-reading all those P-47Ds accounts is a large "investment" of my time, and you'll understand I have other things to do than to convince people...
I'll just post part of the long rambling post I prepeared, and yes there will be P-47 accounts to debate...
I did find TWO account of Me-109Gs causing some trouble in turns to a P-47, both by the same P-47 pilot, Covelle.
They are sustained turns, but they are hardly a show of crushing Me-109 superiority... That they are both from the same pilot, out of hundreds of accounts of P-47s beating Me-109s in typically 2-3 turns, is hardly convincing, not to mention the content of the reports.
Rare, rare, RARE case of the Me-109G causing the P-47 trouble in a Luftberry: Only one of two I am aware of so far...:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...er-11feb44.jpg
Another rare case of a P-47 in trouble vs a Me-109, by Covelle again, despite him having no trouble with his tanks full previously, now had trouble with one out 109 out of several (but equal to the others): Then, out of ammunition and still fighting(!): "I broke into this 109 and he tacked on to me, but I managed to out-turn him until I reached the clouds":
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...le-7june44.jpg
Note this, however, before the nay-sayers start singing in the streets over these two accounts...:
I have no doubt a reduced-power ME-109G will out-turn a full power paddle-blade P-47D, especially a Bubbletop and especially to the right...
So I'll get back to those later...
With that out of the way, let's try once again to inject a bit of observed FW-190A reality into this... (And I
will spell it this way...)
Tactical and technical trends, Nov. 5-11 1942:
-"Maneuverability--Except at lower speeds-around 140 MPH(!)- The FW-190 is superior and will out-turn the P-38" (A FW-190A-4)
-1943 British test: "The P-38G and FW-190A-4 are roughly similar in turning ability"
Note this combat of a P-38G against a Me-109G:
Lt. Royal Madden from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.” [!!!!]
Well Ok it is all meningless etc...
Anyway, here are a few P-47 combat reports with my comments:
-Poor FW-190A high-speed handling (400 MPH speed, elongated loop, abrupt pitching-up, blacking out the pilot as in the "tendency to black-out the pilot" in the P-47 test two links above (nose high deceleration in a broad curve of course), snapping completely out in 400mph turns etc...):
http://www.spitfireperformance...0-murrell-2dec44.jpg
Inability of the FW-190A to make turns at 500 mph: "He tried short sharp turns right and left, and what seemed skidding turns down. There was no violent evasive action at all.":
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-2march44.jpg
Superior P-47D turn rate against Me-109G (contrast later to FW-190A):
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform.../56-mudge-1dec43.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...-covelle-19may44.jpg
Lesser or nil P-47D superiority in turns to right vs Me-109G (as example of why the opposite could be demonstrated: It seems the P-47D out-turned the Me-109G severely to the left mostly):
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...truluck-27sept43.jpg
Now contrast this to the FW-190A-8, late in 1944 (The P-47 has to escape in a zoom...):
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg
More Me-109G turnfight-beating links
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...cdermott-25may44.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...8-luckey-19may44.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...-covelle-19may44.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rth-7oct44.jpg
"I easily out-turned them (2 Me-109Gs) from 9000 ft to 2000 ft":
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-15march44.jpg
"We started turning with several 109s, and were having no difficulty doing it at 23500 ft. with full tanks"
"About 4 (109s)across the circle from and five pulling in on us from six o'clock. But as we pulled deflection on the others across from us, the rest seemed to lose interest in the fight and disappeared"
10 000 ft.: "The e/a started trying to turn, and we out-turned them immediately"
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...le-19may44.jpg
Earlier needle-tip prop (pre-Jan-1944) P-47Ds also showed a significant superiority in sustained turns to the Me-109G, except that to the right the margin is closer: "My excess speed was about gone but I was gradually getting inside and nearer to him" ---Despite being in a right-turning Luftberry: Close to stalling but still gaining...:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg
Luftberry
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...e-8april44.jpg
Turning`
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-22feb44-b.jpg
two turns around hangar and "I was continually out-turning him"
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...t-8april44.jpg
two luftberrys. I closed on the last E/A
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...tz-29nov44.jpg
"tight luftberry. My excess airspeed was about gone, but I was gradually getting inside and nearer to him (Me-109)"
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...k-27sept43.jpg
"In this engagement we succeeded in out-diving and out-turning the enemy (Me-109) at any altitude"
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...on-12may44.jpg
8000 ft-"We had no difficulty turning and climbing with them":
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ey-19may44.jpg
In another example, which I could not find, a gondola Me-109G holds its own to the right with a P-47D at high altitude. (Altitude seem to matter little in relative P-47D vs Me-109G turn performance)
In another example of P-47D turn assymetry vs the Me-109G, notice how, against the very same Me-109G, the contest is a LOT longer and closer when to the RIGHT (several P-47 pilot quotes confirm the strong preference of the P-47D for the left turn)...:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...wilkinson-1dec43.jpg
Interesting mixture of turning and dive/zooming by a FW-190A: I would call it an unusually equitable use of both turning and dive and zoom: He gets killed in a zoom:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-23march44.jpg
Against a late FW-190A-8, no so easy...: "We fought a long running and turning fight eastward, during which which I was out-turned several times which necessitated climbing and allowing the e/a to run" Just before that a Luftberry alone with 3 Me-109s had resulted in a kill...
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg
Against the FW-190A? Not so easy...:
Again, long turning battle with the FW-190A, a rough match:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-22april44.jpg
Again,"not being able to hold any more deflection" against a FW-190A:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-8march44.jpg
"Not being able to tighten my turn any further" against a FW-190A, and "overrunnning" him twice in the same sentence:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-8march44.jpg
Now... For a fair comparison, wouldn't you agree a first step would be similar amount of combat accounts showing the "superior turn-fighting" Me-109Gs out-turning the poor helpless P-47? (And this at low speeds in sustained multiple circles, I might add, since high speeds did seem to favour the Me-109G vs the P-47 at least a little...)
Very noteworthy in these accounts is that altitude seems to matter little when the Me-109 goes up against a P-47: On the deck, very high, pretty much the same...
I collated this from a larger post, sorry if there are repetitions...
I imagined all of it anyway you know...
Gaston