Anyone,
The Topic title is Energy Maneuverability.
If no one has an interest in accurately measuring Energy Maneuverability then please consider leaving this Topic alone as if this Topic were Underwater Basket Weaving, since you have no interest in this topic.
Please.
There is no point I can see in continuing the ambiguous, subjective, opinionated, and baseless arguments concerning which plane makes which players happy or fearful.
The Spitfire is, in fact, until proven in some way otherwise, Single Superior in that it is coded in the game with a superior Sustained Turn Performance Flight Envelope against any fighter modeled in the game, including the 109.
The Spitfire, so modeled, is therefore ideally suited for angles tactics which include a wide variety of applications not limited to turn fighting on the deck where diving is no longer an option.
Supposing that there are, perhaps, readers who read these threads and they are not necessarily going to write in these Topics, for any reason, not limited to the reasons that may include avoiding "getting their hands dirty" as so often is the case when personal attacks are allowed and/or encouraged, but supposing that there are any readers on this forum who have an interest in Energy Maneuverability I will soldier on in the effort to discuss that topic, despite the diversions and despite the personal attacks.
Restating the original question:
Quote:
Cornering Speed: "The lowest air speed at which a fighter can obtain the structural or aerodynamic limiting G force."
In the "dogfight" situation, this is the speed I'm trying to maintain in order to "out-turn" an adversary. It's also the speed above which I must excercise caution to prevent "Over-G" damage. Below this speed I must remain "Stall vigilant.
Is there a central location where the cornering speeds of CLoD aircraft can be found?
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Before targeting that question with narrow focus of precise interest it was my decision to divert attention to a similar precise measure of Combat Aircraft Performance known as Sustained Turn Performance, the idea behind the diversion was to ensure that one interesting performance characteristic was not confused with the other interesting performance characteristic.
Sustained Turn Performance is interesting as it relates to the capacity to win Air Combat whereby one pilot is turning to shoot another pilot and one pilot can turn a tighter turn radius, higher g, faster turn rate, and do so at a slower air speed where energy loss is not a consideration or when Specific Excess Power is ZERO.
That advantage is decidedly coded into this sim as a Spitfire advantage over any other plane - as far as I know so far.
Confusing Sustained Turn Performance with Corner Speed can be done by someone who has experience in simulating Fighter Combat, and so my effort is to avoid such confusion.
Is the Spitfire coded in this game with both a Sustained Turn Advantage and a Corner Speed Advantage over the 109?
How about some perspective?
If the answer is yes, then how would the game be judged if the answer was no, whereby the 109 was coded with a Corner Speed Advantage?
Who would know?
Who has any inclination to precisely measure which plane has a Corner Speed Advantage?
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34290
Perhaps that person read some of the personal attacks that fill these pages and he or she decided that the answer cannot be found here on this forum.
I don't know, but I may be more persistent.
109 = @350 km/h (fully loaded combat weight) Corner Speed
How about a relative understanding of the importance of Corner Speed in Fighter Combat for those who share an interest in such things, and decidedly NOT for those who prefer to spend their time attacking each other personally?
Suppose, for example, I am flying my routine pre-mission flights over the Channel, and the unexpected dot appears in my forward view, and it turns out to be a head-on merge at 6k meters with a worthy opponent flying an enemy fighter plane.
If I know that the 109 has a Corner Speed advantage can I use that knowledge to my advantage?
Yes, no, maybe?
If the Spitfire pilot is patrolling at 6k meters then the Spitfire pilot is probably not a gamer who has found a new toy, spawning in and running to the nearest fight, dying, repeating, as if quake was once worth playing but it became outdated and now this CLoD thing will do for a quick fix.
If the Spitfire pilot has a handle on Energy Maneuverability, and Fighter Combat in general, up at 6k meters, merging with me in my 109, will the bloke also have a keen awareness of which plane is coded with the lower Corner Speed, and how could I tell if there are any tell tale clues concerning such an understanding?
Assuming that the merge was not an early recognition made by the Spitfire pilot as to the fact that a 109 was passing, and assuming that both pilots pass on the same straight and level parallel direction opposite each other, without a Lead Turn, and without a Head-On exchange of firepower, what can be expected to be the next move by the opponent when it is a 109 against a Spitfire?
If one pilot is shot down then a mistake has to be made at some point.
What if both pilots pull up into a straight vertical zoom climb?
Are they going to test how well they can turn from level to vertical?
Are they going to test to see which plane decelerates slower in an unloaded zoom climb?
Are they going to test to see who met who at a higher speed at the merge?
Is the Spitfire pilot going to dive and run away for mortal fear of a 109 nearby?
I don't know yet. I know what I do, and the first thing I do after such a merge is a slight level turn to gauge how fast the opponent will reverse, and this is part of what is turned in Shaw's Sustained Turn Technique.
If I turn and I am not yet at corner speed then I nose low to turn at corner speed.
How far from turning around, as I turn around, has the opponent progressed as the opponent turns around?
Did the opponent climb?
If the opponent is very quickly on my tail and shooting, then I made a mistake, obviously.
Is that even possible?
If the Spitfire was higher before I saw it, and I had been climbing and turning around at the altitude where I saw the Spitfire, then it could appear as if we two were at equal energy states when we both passed each other and when I turn around I have to drop the nose to get faster so as to gain enough speed to maximize my turn rate at Corner Speed while the higher Energy State Spitfire may be turning just above Corner Speed initially and during his turn, at 90 degrees for example, that Spitfire is at Corner Speed and his turn is remarkably tight in turn radius, his attack is then his nose aimed at my wingtip as the Spitfire approaches 90 degrees off my left, and I'm not yet at Corner Speed. The Spitfire may be at Corner Speed having to dive after the turn to then be in a position to Saddle up at equal speed, and at a much better position.
If I see that Spitfire gaining too fast I nose low and extend. If the Spitfire was much faster at the merge then the Spitfire may not have burned all the extra energy the Spitfire had over me at that time when I try to run from the fight. In other words my mistake was to fly over the channel slow and ONLY at 6k meters when a Spitfire pilot is cherry picking at higher altitudes and faster speeds.
What if, and this has happened repeatedly in my experience, in other Combat Simulators, both pilots zoom after the merge, to see which plane has the advantage in energy over the other, which is the case in Shaw's Sustained Turn Technique since the object of that Energy Maneuver, or tactic, is to encourage the opponent to bleed off too much Energy in the turn after the merge, while YOU minimize your energy loss, and so the idea is to encourage that zoom after a second merge, and if the maneuver works then the opponent has burned off too much energy and the opponent will stall first.
I've had those kinds of fights and it is a blast. Those kinds of fights almost never happen on Dog Fight Servers where quake players are spawning into the game for a quick fix, rushing to the nearest fight, anchoring the fight at that spot, fighting until dying, and counting the number of kills before death as a measure of success.
Those kinds of quake fights may be the rule, but there are exceptions, and energy fights do happen on Dog Fight Servers and the opposition knows what their plane can do relative to the other since those type of players are looking for the same type of fights, I call them energy fights, you can understand what I am trying to communicate or you can fail. You can have an interest or you can find what interests you elsewhere.
Those types of players, looking for energy fights, fly around high, they cherry pick, they hit and run, they camp at known spawn points, and if they choose a Spitfire that is what they bring to the fight, and if they prefer to choose the plane with the higher top speed, because they will run from a fight, then that is what they choose.
If they choose a plane with a slower Top Speed then more care is needed, but not much more care, when cherry picking, and choosing, where to fight, when to fight, and how to fight.
The Quake players, meanwhile, may have this to say, or that to say, about this or that, and who cares?
There are Topics for such things.
This is not that Topic.
Top Speed is one performance variable.
This is not the Top Speed performance topic.
Sustained Turn Performance is very important otherwise there would be no interest in knowing which plane can Sustain a tighter turn radius when energy loss is not a consideration (Ps = 0).
Corner Speed is a very important performance advantage even if the quake players have no clue about it.
Unloaded acceleration/deceleration is a very important performance variable even if the quake players have no clue about it.
These performance variables are on Topic.
1.
Sustained Turn Performance = Advantage Spitfire
2.
Corner Speed = Advantage Spitfire (not confirmed by me)
3.
Unloaded acceleration/deceleration (dive and zoom vertical fighting)
109 = 350 km/h Corner Speed
Spitfire = ? Corner Speed
The Sustained Turn Performance advantage held by the Spitfire is significant, in the order of a 25% advantage if the 109 turns 360 degrees in 25 seconds and the Spitfire turns 360 degrees in 18.5 seconds.
How much better is the Spitfire Corner Speed?
If the 109 has an unloaded (dive and zoom) Acceleration/Deceleration advantage, then how much is that advantage?
How can those advantages be measured?
Those advantages can't be measured by someone who only cherry picks on the quake players unless I have missed something.