[Robo.]

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Robo,

Thanks for participating in this Topic. If you could please consider rephrasing your viewpoint I would appreciate the effort since my confusion concerning your viewpoint is unsolvable without your help.

Hello Josf, sorry to confuse you. I really enjoy fighter aircraft tactics debates and being a keen virtual pilot I appreciate your effort in this thread. I don't know you at all and there is no subtext in my reply and you should read is as plain it was written. My point in general is, that perhaps more time in the sim is needed for anyone to embrace the FM characteristics in detail and both sides should be flown extensively before making any conclusions. All above with all due respect to your flying skill and theoretical knowledge.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

In the memory I have so far, concerning the limited experience I have with the game, the 109 pilots I know were nearly shot down several times by 1 Spitfire fighting against 4 of us working as a team.

With more experience with this sim you will find that one Spitfire is no match for four 109s on comms.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Had we had Spitfires and the 1 enemy was flying a 109, on the deck, Hertt would probably have taken that one 109 down in the first few minutes if not sooner, and we would be crying the blues, as usual, because Hertt is so greedy that way.

Not necessarily, if the 109 decides to fly straight there is nothing you can do.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

When there were 2 Spitfires at once, against 4 of us, the incidences of us nearly being shot down increased and this can be attributed to those unorganized pilots using their advantages used by them to their advantage during those fights.

It can also be attributed to your inability to use the 109 to its full potential yet.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

They could turn and burn like no tomorrow, and we could not turn and burn nearly as well.

Pretty much as expected. Mind you that in the sim it is indeed possible to outturn a Spitfire if 109 pilot happens to be of higher skill and Spitfire pilot of rather low.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Sustained Turn Performance Advantages.

My point is that I now know, beyond any doubt, that the Spitfire in this game has a Sustained Turn Performance Advantage, at the very least, over the 109, when the 109 is nearly full of fuel.

Yes indeed.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Which plane, in the game, has a lower corner velocity?

Probably the Spitfire.

Certainly.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Which plane, in the game, has a faster rate of acceleration in level flight from stall to the point at which acceleration is anemic?

Probably the Spitfire.

109 (very much depending on pilot's CEM skill)

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Which plane, in the game, has a faster rate of unloaded (minimum drag) acceleration in vertical maneuvering (going down, or trading altitude for speed, which is a net loss of energy due to drag and the fact that the thrust to drag ratio on WWII planes is less that 1 to 1)?

Probably the Spitfire.

109 for sure

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Which plane, in the game, has a slower rate of unloaded (minimum drag) deceleration in vertical maneuvering (going up, or trading speed for altitude, again a net loss of energy for the same less than 1 to 1 thrust to drag ratio)?

Probably the Spitfire.

Nope, the 109 wins hands down in this discipline.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

My guess is that the Spitfire will turn out to be Double Superior. I want to be wrong.

You are wrong indeed. You will find that the 109 is far superior in the vertical level.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

We already know that the Spitfire is Single Superior in Angles Fighting as far as any fights that are on the deck, without the capacity to trade altitude for speed.

Of course, as expected.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

You quote my words concerning the often repeated laughter shared among the people in my squad, and perhaps you do not understand my words as much as I do not understand your words.

We have a lot of fun in these World War II Air Combat Simulations. I met Hertt in the 1980s, flying Air Warrior On-Line, and so this is not new fun for us, this is well known fun for us; we share an interest in World War II Fighter Combat Simulation.

I did not comment on the laughter in your squad at all, I also make funny comments while flying with my pals.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

How about specifics concerning my lack of understanding concerning what you offer here in this thread on Energy Maneuverability?

I am answering your questions and / or your assumptions and I am also suggesting flying the 109 and the RAF fighters in the sim much more before assuming anything more complex. You could easily make wrong assumptions as you actually happened to make.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

In the first place the teamwork effort is not easy, at all, it is very difficult, and it often goes very wrong.

It is not supposed to be easy. But if you do it for long enough it's not a rocket science either.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

In the second place I do not know anything about which plane has a Superior Climb rate, at any altitude, nor do I know about any advantage in firepower, since, so far, I've seen many hits, very many hits, and almost impossible to survive numbers of hits, going into these Spitfires, and they keep fighting us despite all that damage, sometimes. These things can, I assume, be recorded on track files so as to leave no room for controversy, confusion, opinion, subjectivity, or anything other than an obvious fact demonstrated precisely and unambiguously.

109 has got better climbrate as you will soon find out. Shooting is also a skill to be mastered in this game. Give it more time. Spitfire is very though (DM issues) but you can destroy it with one good pass.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

In the third place we have been involved in many on-line Wars where the planes are being blamed for lack of success earned by our opponents as if the game hands us our well earned victories and the challenge has been, more than once, for us to trade planes, and then see who is handed the win by the game CODE, and we win again.

Fair enough, but I suppose that was not the case yet in this particular sim. Yet you make lots of assumptions e.g. about the Spitfire without actually flying it. I hope you see my point now.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

So...if I have your viewpoint understood, which may or may not be the case, then the challenge you offer is the same old challenge, let me, or anyone in my squad, or any combination of anyone in our squad, fight you, or any Spitfire user of the game (virtual pilot), or any combination of any Spitfire flying team, and switch planes, to see who is being handed the victories handed to whomever by the game CODE, as the game CODE favors one plane with Sustained Turn Performance Advantages, that being the Spitfire, and the game CODE favors the other plane with whatever the other plane has as an advantage that I am not yet aware of in FACT.

I don't know what 'game CODE' is, I only believe that your assumptions would be much different if you've tried both sides. I don't offer any challenges, perhaps you misunderstood my post. If you keep flying this sim for a bit longer, we will certainly meet at some point, hopefully on TS. I really enjoy debates like this.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

If things move along in this game as they have in other games I see us testing our relative performance advantages against the opposition eventually. I can share your conclusions concerning climb, firepower, and speed advantages at that point, in those cases, and meanwhile I can assume that you know what you reporting to me in FACT.

I do know.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Is the Spitfire maximum climb angle the same as the 109?

How much is the Spitfire maximum climb rate less than the 109 and are the fuel loads the same, and are the pilots using the maximum climb rate engine settings, control surface positions, the best climb angle for maximum climb rate, correctly to get the maximum climb rate out of the Spitfires or the 109s?

I don't know, and so I'm asking.

See above, keep flying for longer, the answers are rather obvious.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

I could respond with a sound bite, to keep the discussion down to a minimum number of symbols of text, but that is not my interest here, I am here to share what I know with anyone similarly interested, and I do so in the effort to gain some valuable information from other people who know things I do not know, not yet, or things I may never know without seeking, and then gaining help from other people.

I am similary interested.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Not actually being at a table to see you winking at me, I am confused as to what the winking means. If you care to join a form of discussion in the virtual world of Simulated Air Combat then you can show me how much better the 109 is compared to the Spitfire, we can meet in fact, on a server, plane to plane, in the game, once I fly the Spitfire a few times, or even for the first time, and that can prove something, and that sounds like a lot of fun to me. You can wink at me with superior 109 firepower, and there won't be any more confusion on my end, as to what you mean to say, exactly.

There was no winking at all. All I was saying is that the performance gap in the sim is big enough for the 109 to win any co-e encounter with RAF fighter. Even exceptional Spitfire pilot would struggle against decent flown 109. Exceptional 109 pilot has no problem at all with RAF. Exceptional 109 pilot still wins against exceptional Spitfire pilot.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

That sounds like someone assuming something about Hertt and I, and what Hertt and I could possibly do as a team when we are being challenged to fly Hurricanes or Spitfires against 109s, even when the 109 pilots may have been flying as a team for some 30 years in various on-line World War II simulations such as Air Warrior, Warbirds, IL2, and now this game, so I ask again, since I don't really know, as I may be confused when I read your welcome contribution to this Topic: are you assuming something about Hertt and I and if so what exactly are you assuming?

Yes, I am very much assuming, that despite your overal skill and experience from other sims, you would get your bottom kicked in the above situation, assuming that the 109 pilots are above average.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

What type of fight do you think will be the type of fight that will educate Hertt and I concerning the inferiority CODED into the Spitfire or Hurricanes as the Spitfire and Hurricane is going to be flown by Hertt and I against a 109 Rotte, or wing pair, in this game?

Just join ATAG on red side and fight against some good and organised blue pilots. You will find soon enough who they are.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

If it is a fight started with a cold merge at the same altitude and same speed then what do you think Hertt and I are going to do, tactically, when we are handed planes that have been CODED with a remarkable Sustained Turn advantage over the 109, which is the case with the Spitfire?

Knowing the qualities of a 109 in the game, you will be boomed and zoomed until you get hit eventually and they you will limp home or die.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Will we concentrate on a 2 on 1 tactic first, or will we lose the initiative immediately and will we find ourselves each in a 1 on 1 battle after the first 90 degree turn?

Just try it.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Will we find advantage in vertical maneuvering or will we have to concentrate on horizontal angles fighting tactics?

You will be in a massive disadvantage in vertical fight soon. And that is what 109s will do. Fairly right so.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

Have you flown the 109 in this game?

I have flown all fighter aircraft in this sim extensively (100s of hours). Otherwise I would not dare to comment on the topic. I actually wonder how do you manage to do that after one night on ATAG.

We can discuss the 109 characteristics later if you wish - that I find very interesting.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

You rate my performance before I even have a chance to perform anything. How is that possible?

I am rating the possible (and obvious) outcome based on my experience with this sim. I also took your inexperience with this sim in account.

Originally Posted by JG14_Josf

You make a claim of massiveness without nailing down anything that can be measured as being massive or less than massive.

I am sorry I did not provide any exact figures, I tried to reply in general. The performance gap is being discussed in too many topics on this forums, I suggest you read klems testing for the start.