[Glider]

Oh Dear

Originally Posted by Gaston

Well KG 200 did do tests and they did say "The P-47D out-turns our Bf-109G", but you do choose to ignore them don't you?

Or maybe I misunderstood your position, and you actually understand the Me-109G is ridiculously out-turned by the P-47D?

I wasn't talking about the P47

You also choose to ignore what all combat reports are saying, including your own quote:

I ignored nothing, you asked for an example I gave you one. You are the one ignoring the test reports, test pilots and so on.

"I was flying as Blue 3 and during the engagement I saw 4 F.W. 190's flying below me"

Well, if you want to make sure it is not high speed, you better exclude diving from the equation don't you?

On top of that we don't know how far below, or how fast they were going...:

"in the opposite direction and attacking four of my squadron."

"Attacking" and "opposite direction" implies they are neither slow nor, more importantly, turning...

I give you credit for recognising that one side was attacking.

Maybe "Stall-turned" confused you: It does not mean that the turning was close to level flying speed stall, but it could instead very well be close to a 350-400 MPH 6 G "stall-turn"... In fact unsustained speed maximum rate turns are typically "stall-turns"...

I know what a stall turn is. In brief you put the nose of the aircraft up to kill speed and then I used to turn the glider using the rudder before the speed drops to a level where you lose control authority. I have done these a number of times and it has absolutely nothing to do with speed or high G. If you have been to an air show you will have seen a tail slide which is an extension of this where the aircraft lets the speed drop to zero and slides back before turning.

If you believe for a moment that quote In fact unsustained speed maximum rate turns are typically "stall-turns" it proves beyond any doubt your level of understanding on this subject

The important part is that the speed is lost

Finally: "They broke and turned with me but I could easily out-turn them and I got several bursts at the rear one."

Well "several" burst is good for your argument, but still there is no suggestion of low speed or multiple level turns is there?

As covered by my pevious statement it has everything to do with low speed. Also note that the 190 turned with him, so the 190 must have been going slowly or he would have overshot. Also note several bursts, not one or two, which means that this went on for some time.

In fact, "broke and turned with me", combined with "attacking" and "opposite direction", pretty much implies they were previously going fairly straight, which in turn suggests fairly fast...

All this proves is that you have no idea about the manoeuver you are talking about. It is about losing speed, which turned into a turning fight and the 190 was lucky to get away with it

But maybe you don't quite get the distinction I make between high G turning performance and low-G sustained turning performance? Well, consider that just because it's all the same for our "sophisticated" current flight physics (assuming similar needed stick effort per G at high speeds), it doesn't mean it's all the same for my theory...

Oh I do

But since you don't accept, not even momentarily for the sake of an argument apparently, the basics of my theory, that explains the unconvincing example you chose...

Just a small reminder, you asked for one example and I supplied it. Now I recognise that you may not like your challange being taken up but be fair, you did ask for it and it is a good example.

Hey, have you heard of the multiple turns level fight by Johnny Johnson? "Opposite side of an ever diminishing circle"?: That's more like the ticket...

Yes I have, the Johnny Johnson in a Mk V who was up against the 190 which was a much better aircraft almost certainly being flown by a very experienced pilot and it was JJ who was the lucky one.