Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston
This is a very interesting account, and I appreciate that this kind of comparison is sought and brought to light rather than the usual arguments.
Note I never said anything about the Typhoon: The Typhoon was the final development of the ... Hurricane(!) in the words of its designer.
I would not 100% assume the Typhoon is by necessity inferior in sustained turns to a Spitfire, given the clear superiority of the Hurricane to the Spitfire.
However in this account I would note two things: The FW-190As dived away from 10 000 ft. to sea level, and the Typhoon dived down in pursuit: They are above sustained turn speed throughout the turning engagement, and this is evidenced by the Typhoon pilot having "to lay off" because he was blacking out: Maximum sustained turn speed Gs are about 3.2/3.4 Gs in WWII, too low for the pilot to require a "relief" of this kind.
Another thing is that Eric Brown and many others have noted a "change in trim" on the FW-190A as speed decreased and the turn went from 230 knots to below 220 knots (or just around the 250 mph "change" in turn performance of the P-47D comparison): The change in trim is felt in the stick and can surprise the pilot (making him suddenly pull up into a stall as the stick "lightens") if he becomes nervous: Eric Brown even mentions this effect, but maybe, being a high hours test pilot, he underestimates its effect during the tension of a turning battle, saying it should not cause an accident).
I have read several Allied accounts of FW-190A pilots holding their own in a turn after a steep dive (vs P-47Ds), and then, as speed decreases below the 250 MPH treshold, suddenly nosing up and dropping a wing as the stick no longer requires as much pull-back to keep the turn, something which can be confusing (as noted by E. Brown).
For this and better turn performance reasons, one FW-190A ace describes dropping the throttle long before the merge (popping flaps as well), as a preparation for battle with P-51s, and never throttling back up, preferring always horizontal turning to go head-to head if the P-51s would (wisely) not turn with him...
Gaston
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No you did not reference the Typhoon, however, you were looking for some sort of comparison between the Spitfire and the FW190 at low altitude sustained turn rate.
The Typhoon may be the ultimate development of the Hurricane but they should not be confused as the same aircraft. The Typhoon is a totally new design and related to the Hurricane in the same way that the Wildcat was the forebear to the Hellcat and Bearcat. Superficially similar but always totally new designs.
Going by the Tempest tactical trials... if the Typhoon turns similarly to the Tempest and the Tempest turns similarly to the FW190 and the Spitfire out turns the Tempest then logic would then preclude that, on the basis of these tests, the Spitfire out turns all of the previously mentioned aircraft in sustained turns.
If we go by the P-47C trials then we can add some additional fuel to that fire in that the P-47C is out turned by the Spitfire as well (again, already quoted). Since your telling me that the P-47D is similar in turn to the FW190... we can then go by a basic point of comparison that the P-47C is probably better in the turn than the P-47D-25 as the D-25 has a wing loading of 58.3 lb/ft² and the P-47C has 43.3 lb/ft². I'm not sure if there was great variation between turn rates but the P-47C was a lighter aircraft with nearly as much power but no paddle prop (Not sure if that would have any effect on turn... climb yes). So the P-47C may slightly out turn the FW190 but is out turned by the Spitfire handily.
Not buying that the FW190 would in any way have a superior turn to the Spitfire. I would accept that the P-51B, P-47D, FW190, Typhoon, and Tempest have fairly similar overall turn rates.
Now bringing the IL-2 1946 4.11.1 experience to bear... I would say that the game shows us basically the same thing. The P-51B is closest to the FW190A-5 with the Tempest having maybe a slight edge and P-47 perhaps a slight disadvantage going by IL-2 Compare 4.11. Going by a more anecdotal route versus these planes online... I do use the throttle down method but mostly to contain my speed, prevent overshoot, and increase my turn abilities. I feel confident engaging a P-51 in a horizontal fight at any speed although I would of course prefer to have the energy advantage.
The only area that I have real difficulty with is the Bf109G versus FW190A. Why the reports of turn abilities vary so much between various testing and pilot reports I'm not sure. Others have speculated that RAE testing with the Bf109G may not have achieved full turn potential as they felt the slats opening in the turn were a negative event rather than something that may help with the turn. Perhaps they were malfunctioning. We'll probably never know.