[Gaston]

Originally Posted by CWMV

Prove it, I mena its one thing to say "its this way!" but another to show data.
EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I just responded to a necro thread. Go me.
But while Im here:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...0/ptr-1107.pdf


Sounds REALLY close to what we have in game really.

It sure does...: The conclusion of these "Geniuses" was that: "In general [the FW-190] is an interceptor-type aircraft that is at a disadvantage against airplanes designed for the purpose of "in fighting""...

But these US Navy "Geniuses" were at least smart enough to recognize the FW-190A HATED high speed turning and high speed combat in general (putting them far ahead of all simmers since apparently), as was widely known to the Russians:

From the same US Navy report (identical to another one for an earlier FW variant):

"It [FW-190A-5] has a no-warning stall which tends to reduce its efficiency in combat against airplanes, which can force it to fly near the stalling speed"

My God! They actually figured out the FW-190 preferred low-speed fighting!

Yipeeeeeeeeeee!

That must have been a strain... Yet their conclusion is "excellent interceptor-type aircraft"... Hmmm...



But you are right: If THIS Russian evaluations:

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...bat-fw190.html



says "Being very stable and having a large range of speeds, the FW-190 will inevitably offer turning battle at a minimum speed." that apparent disagreement in the final outcome on how to use it can only be because the US NAVY has much more combat experience with the FW-190A, and knew how the FW-190A should be flown far better than those poor brain-washed Germans...

Of note is that the Russian found the FW-190A to be equal to their excellent Yak-7 in left turns, but the FW-190 is apparently easily beaten in right turns:

" Yak-7 will easily outturn a FW-190 in a right turn; both planes have equal turn rate in a left turn."

(This indicates flaps up for the FW-190A by the way: Clostermann reported that later in the war, around late '43 or early '44, appeared the novel use of flaps ("volet") on the FW-190A, which he described as significantly improving the turn performance. If turning was flaps down, the wing drop would be reversed and the aircraft would turn tighter to the right at low speeds, not the left)

http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsIII.htm

But the Russians claim the Yak-1 will outmaneuver it even better, though not specifying if that included the vertical plane (vertical maneuvers are of course very poor on the FW-190A)

You gotta love below how the "excellent interceptor" was used by those foolish Germans who knew nothing about flying their own aircrafts:

http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsIII.htm

"The following information about German tactics is derived from experience of our pilots that fought the FW-190.

Germans will position their fighters at different altitudes, especially when expecting to encounter our fighters. FW-190 will fly at 1,500-2,500 meters and Me-109G at 3,500-4,000 meters. They interact in the following manner:

FW-190 will attempt to close with our fighters hoping to get behind them and attack suddenly. If that maneuver is unsuccessful they will even attack head-on relying on their superb firepower. This will also break up our battle formations to allow Me-109Gs to attack our fighters as well. Me-109G will usually perform boom-n-zoom attacks using superior airspeed after their dive.

FW-190 will commit to the fight even if our battle formation is not broken, preferring left turning fights. There has been cases of such turning fights lasting quite a long time, with multiple planes from both sides involved in each engagement."

Gosh! That last bold quote couldn't be a clue that they held their own against "superior-turning" Russian fighters now could it?

Hey! That Me-109/FW-190 relationship sort of jives with this, thousands of miles away doesn't it?:

-Squadron Leader Alan Deere, (Osprey Spit MkV aces 1941-45, Ch. 3, p. 2: "Never had I seen the Hun stay and fight it out as these Focke-Wulf pilots were doing... In Me-109s the Hun tactic had always followed the same pattern- a quick pass and away, sound tactics against Spitfires and their SUPERIOR TURNING CIRCLE. Not so these 190 pilots: They were full of confidence... We lost eight to their one that day..."

But it must all be a coincidence you know...

But my favourite of all among all, has got to be my old RCAF friend John Weir, who obviously doesn't know anything about true wingloading performance, being just, you know, an experienced fighter pilot fighting for his life and all... (What the hell's that compared to being a glorious theoretically-correct simmer?):

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/s..._101/SF_101_03

"A Hurricane was built like a truck, it took a hell of a lot to knock it down. It was very manoeuvrable, much more manoeuvrable than a Spit, so you could, we could usually outturn a Messerschmitt. They'd, if they tried to turn with us they'd usually flip, go in, at least dive and they couldn't. A Spit was a higher wing loading..."

"The Hurricane was more manoeuvrable than the Spit and, and the Spit was probably, we (Hurricane pilots) could turn one way tighter than the Germans could on a, on a, on a Messerschmitt, but the Focke Wulf could turn the same as we could and, they kept on catching up, you know."


Obviously the poor man remembers wrongly what actually happened, and the congruence with all the others who had to face it in actual combat is just a vast world-wide collective hallucination...

Or maybe it was just magical "pilot experience", always there to throw everything into confusion: We all know that Germans in those days were mystical-oriented, and thus gained levitation powers with "pilot experience": That could be it you know...

If they had measured the wing-bending of theses things in flight, they would know what the actual wingload of these things is (Ie: What John Weir meant by "heavier Spitfire wingloading": Actual in-flight observation, not theory)...

But they only bent the wings on the ground and called it "knowledge"...

And yes, if they had done that, in-flight (recording in-flight continuous stress-gauge info, which would have been real tricky before the late 40s at least), they would have found out that, unlike jets, even at the same exact amount of Gs during a turn, an old warbird's wingload actually varies with power during the turn, as reported clearly by many WWII pilots, and used routinely as a "trick" by 8th AF P-51s, FW-190 pilots and some Me-109 pilots...

But what do these guys know...

Gaston