Topcat
You keep posting this as if its undeniably right but I believeit t have some serious items missed so have posted my comments. I do not pretend be an expert in areodynamics but was taught the basics a long time ago.
Feel free to correct my memory
Well once again you are picking extract here and there to build an argument. I only wonder if you did build yourself that way (I speak rudely tht way because I don't like your tone and especially the way you behave as ever tht look like to say: hummph, if you can't answer to this right now then you fail).
I thought it was my aruements that upset you not tone
At first, did you notice that we are talking rather differently of slow speed turns ? All the argumentation is based on physics and pilot accounts and turn around the stall characteristic of the Spit wing.
I had noticed and I also noticed that in the flight tests the Spitfire could stay with the Me109 when the Me 109 stalled. This I believe to be clear evidence that the Spit was better at slow speed.
if you take the both the 109 and the Spit at constant turning speed the SPit will always have an inferior radius as the Hurri will have with the Spit.
You do have examples of this don’t you.? If so I invite you to post them remembering that the RAF and Luftwaffe test establishments both agreed that the Spit would easily turn inside the Me109, as did the pilots both German and RAF who flew the Spitfire
The prob with the SPitfire is her configuration : the thin wing, the wide chord, the low span ratio and the elliptical shape. In the order of appearance it will increase the AoA, aggravate the drag generated by the turbulence around the airfoil and aggravate the stall characteristic and makes the airflow around the wing tips unpredictable (hence the exaggerated washout).
Wrong I am afraid. In the order of appearance
The thin wing - reduces drag, I am not aware of it increasing the AoA,
The chord - the elliptical wing may not differ as much as you think from the Me109. As I remember it it’s the Mean Aerodynamic chord that matters. On a wing such as the Spit the Mean Chord is some way out from the fuselage as there is a significant difference from the root of the wing and the tip. The Me109 wing doesn’t at first glance change much and will be closer to the root of the wing. There will be a difference but not as much as at first glance.
The elliptical wing - is particularly good for low drag. and while the washout will have an impact on the lift, it does give the ideal warning before the aircraft stalls. It should be noted that the washout on the Spitfire is not exaggerated. Indeed the washout on an elliptical wing is far less than the washout needed for a tapered wing to have the same impact
The more you turn, the more E you loose. This E deficit is only compensated by your engine. The more excess of power you have the more time you will stay in that configuration. The Spitfire had less P/W ratio than the 109 (except perhaps in your 12lb+ dreams and what will come next in your request) and thicker wings.
Partly right but you have forgotten the impact of drag which is at least as important. I do not know the figures for these two aircraft. The 12lb boost was in common use in the BOB and the PW ratio was very close even without the extra boost.
It should be noted that in the flight tests by both the German and RAF test establishments the spit always turned better whilst maintaining height. Which would indicate that the impact of Drag vs PW was if anything in favour of the Spitfire
You think you are a pilot so you know what come next..
Of Gliders where PW ratios are not a real issue.
The Spit will have to turn slightly nose down to compensate for the E loss generated from her draggier turn characteristic and inferior P/W and stay away from the low speed/high AoA/Split angle and bank dangerous situation. Invariably the plane with better stall behavior and superior P/W will stay longer in a turn where the speed decrease hence will loose less alt.
So either the Spit pilot will have to unleash the G before his opponent or will he start to spiral down.
In a turn fight, alt his G (you add the Gravity force to what your plane can do).
I believe this to based on a false assumption as outlined above. You also ignore the lift available, there is lift in a turn and that should be considered
Talking about the 109 and Spits models alternatively taking the leads in the perf race is all about this: the aerodynamics and the P/W ratio. Once one get the upper hands, it felt more dynamics in a dogfight and keep that ounce of extra E to get the advantage in a high G engagement.
the fact is that the Emil model had the advantage during BoB.
As mentioned before if you can find more than one German orf RAF pilot who believes that then again I invite you to post it.
Just like The FW190 enjoyed before the IX was launched. (yeah I know you also believe that the 190 was the tank Oleg sold to us with the first opus of IL2)
As mentioned before can you tell me where I ever said that the Fw 190 was less than exceptional? You do have a habit of making statements like this which are wrong I invite you again to support your statement or withdraw it
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