[Robo.]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

That was in a dive, where the 109's controls were all very heavy! That is not representative of how heavy the trim might be in a horizontal maneuver. Additionally, others have said the large wheel made it easier than competing designs, and I don't think we should be looking at the 109 trim in isolation.

I agree, but from the accounts and the above video it would seem that although being big, it was not very fast in adjusting the trim. Also, comparing the 109 design to competing designs (with trimtabs), it was rather different and more effective as such (with more surface to work with), although slower and more difficult to operate at higher speeds - adjustments would happen in jumps and it would not be easy to trim when the speed has buit up already. Also, French tests mention that even vertical manoeveurs trim was needed where D.520 could easily turn with the stick only etc.

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

What SHOULD be taken into accound in CLOD, and is not, however, is the reputed heaviness of the 109's controls in a dive. I've never had to use trim to pull out of a high speed dive in CLOD, and I feel that I should.

My point precisely. Not in a dive I would say but at high speed even in horizontal flight. The behaviour in the dive had nothing to do with the compresibility effect, it was purely loss of effectivity as the speed build up afik. On full real settings I would expect to need to trim before I enter the dive otherwise I would encounter difficulties. I would expect the trim control to be slower (and heavier IRL) as the speed is rising. In the sim I can get full nose up at any speed with the move of my thumb, the aircraft reacts immediately and too swift leading to unrealistic manoeveurs.

The 109 was very agile in the hands of a good and experienced pilot and is more difficult to master than some other designs. This is sort of the case in the game already (at least that's how I see it), one thing that ruins this for me is the trim and few other things that make flying the 109 much less challenging. But let's stay with the trim:

1. THE RANGE. The real thing had the range of 12 degrees from -3 to +8 degrees, neutral being 0, (Take off setting was between 0-1). The indicator and the range is correct BUT it seems to me that the neutral position is not 0 in game. It seems the range is symetrical, therefore the neutral position is at 3. If you set your elevator trim to 0, that will lead to nose-heavy situation in the sim. I believe the 109 should have more range in tail-heavy direction.

2. THE SPEED AND RESPONSE - asstated above, the animation in the sim is certainly wrong (see RAE test quoted beforehand) and the speed and response is too swift as I mentioned earlier. I would expect the trimming becoming more difficult (slower) at higher speeds and ideally, we would have adjustments in 'jumps' as mentioned by Finnish pilots re. hand placement and movement. Anything would be better that what we've got now imho.

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

What is also interesting out of your linked notes is that the 109 lacked oxygen gear - would this result in a higher effective ceiling for the red fighters?

This is most certainly wrong, the 109 has had oxygen equipement as a very modern fighter. Perhaps that particular machine (damaged and acaptured iirc) had it removed or they have had no mask or compatible exuipement to refill it or similar reason, but the oxygen bottle is down on your right hand side with the breather tube and hoses and gauges (blue for oxygen in LW cockpits).

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Extremely interesting also is the pilot's notes on the tendency of the Hurricane pilot to black out where the 109 pilot would not. Initially I read this as pulling more G's, but in actuality, they are saying that the pilots of a hurricane sat more vertically and had a tendency to black out even in similar g maneuvers! I definitely don't see blackout tendencies modelled in the sim, and that would make it rather interesting, wouldn't it, if the 109's pilots could sustain more g without blacking out!

This is very interesting and important point. I know nothing about pilot's position in the cockpit regarding blackout. The only thing I recall is that in the Spitfire, the pilot was able to lift his feet from the rudder and rest them on a horizontal bar. Apparently that would also make pulling high Gs easier and I've heard on many accounts that the position in the cockpit was very important.

The difference between Hurricane and 109 should be considered in the sim.