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Old 04-22-2010, 06:28 PM
Crni vuk Crni vuk is offline
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Yeah like the Ukrain or White Russian population which have welcome German units as liberators till they realised what a conquer by the Germans meant.

Either way how you see it. Hitler or Stalin. Neither the one nor the other was a good choice.

I remember a quote from a Russian soldier when he was asked about the War that he said, in the end it was a decision between 2 dicators. And he simply choose the one who spoke Russian.

But what I meant was the view of German high military officers on the Russian population in General. And they had less concerns in killing masses of Russians then compared to Brits or French for example which somewhat was in favour of the general Nationalsocialistic doctrine of the Rassenlehre and Untermenschen beeing inferior to the Germanic population. Hands down, if there really would not have been at least in the base of it some overlaping of the Nazi-ideology with what some military officers believed the Nazis would never have been so succesfull in their attempts. Its not like there have not been already a oppsition present since the 1933 even from the military side (See Tresckow and a few other Generals which wanted already in that time to remove Hitler), but those had a very hard time to convince other military personal of their point of view and explain Hitle was a danger to the Reich. For obvious reasons. Particularly after situations like the Munich Agreement it became almost impossible to search for any critical voices cause what people feared didnt happened. War in 1938 with Britain and France what many officers feared since no one believed that it could be won at that point and even the Invasion of Poland many thought (cause of 1938 ) the Brits and French would remain quiet again. It was to late at some point though and those voices that have been critical about the Wehrmachts progression in war efforts and Nazi ideas have been removed from the Military (Blomberg–Fritsch Affair) and replaced with loyal to the Nazi party officers. This includes as well others like Manstein, Rommel and many other Generals which have been even to the end loyal to the Nazi gouvernement. Since both have dissagreed to any attempt of removing Hitler even after it was eminent that the war was loost, at least Staufenberg realised that even though he was a Nazi suporter in the begining. I repeat Manstein might not have been a Nazi in the traditional sense but he was in some aspects close to the Nationalsocialistic ideals and ideas. There is for example a order from 1941 "Reichenau Order" by Manstein which explicit involved the killing of jews.


Erich von Manstein - Indopedia
However, von Manstein did issue an order on November 20, 1941: his version of the infamous "Reichenau Order" [2], which equated "partisans" and "Jews" and called for draconic measures against them. Hitler and Field Marshal von Rundstedt recommended the "Reichenau Order" as being exemplary and encouraged other generals to issue similar orders. Not all did, in fact, it seems that only a minority did do so. Von Manstein was among those who voluntarily issued such an order. It stated that:

This struggle is not being carried on against the Soviet Armed Forces alone in the established form laid down by European rules of warfare.
Behind the front too, the fighting continues. Partisan snipers dressed as civilians attack single soldiers and small units and try to disrupt our supplies by sabotage with mines and infernal machines. Bolshevists left behind keep the population freed from Bolshevism in a state of unrest by means of terror and attempt thereby to sabotage the political and economic pacification of the country. Harvests and factories are destroyed and the city population in particular is thereby ruthlessly delivered to starvation.
Jewry is the middleman between the enemy in the rear and the remains of the Red Army and the Red leadership still fighting. More strongly than in Europe they hold all key positions of political leadership and administration, of trade and crafts and constitutes a cell for all unrest and possible uprisings.
The Jewish Bolshevik system must be wiped out once and for all and should never again be allowed to invade our European living space.
The German soldier has therefore not only the task of crushing the military potential of this system. He comes also as the bearer of a racial concept and as the avenger of all the cruelties which have been perpetrated on him and on the German people."
...
"The soldier must appreciate the necessity for the harsh punishment of Jewry, the spiritual bearer of the Bolshevik terror. This is also necessary in order to nip in the bud all uprisings which are mostly plotted by Jews."
(Nuremberg trials proceedings, Vol. 20, pp. 639 - 645 [3])


Jewry is the middleman between the enemy in the rear and the remains of the Red Army and the Red leadership still fighting.
This is exactly one of the propagandistic phrases carried out by the Nazi party for many years. As well before the war. Comparing all jews with Bolschewiks or label them as enemies to the Reich. Though I dont have to explain to you know how idiotic that kind of rhetoric was ? A person as inteligent like Manstein might have been a good tactician. But he's not simply the honorable soldier many (even in Germany) tried to portayed him during the 60s cause it helped to create a clean image of the Wehrmacht for the Cold War efforts. Today thankefull we have a better understanding of many things. Ideology should never taint our view on history.