Breda SAFAT 12,7mm guns - A real life account of their real power
 

Hi all,

I also wrote earlier a thread on the UBI forum, but perhaps this would be a better place to post it...

The problem of the Italian Breda SAFAT 12,7mm heavy machineguns in the game has been discussed already in the past.

But I still think these guns are not that well represented in the game, power-wise, ROF-wise etc .

Here is an account written by a British pilot based in Malta, that describes the effect of these guns on his plane. It's interesting to read what the (famous but underrated) HE esplosive round was capable of doing in real life.
So many people still think these rounds were "useless" or just "tore fabric or metal skins off".

The action describes one of the first actions of the Macchi C.202s over Malta.
The aerial combat took place on the 22th of October 1941.
One of the Hurricanes was shot down, another one landed heavily damaged withouth Italian losses.

Many thanks to Mapalm that shared this account in the 150GCT forums. This is their link http://www.150gct.it

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http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8...a1941a1rp5.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6...0034grande.jpg

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The amount of damages for a 12,7mm gun is impressive.
One of the bullets almost ripped open a main wing spar and created a hole of about 30 cm. (!)

I still "feel" that the guns in the game are somehow too weak and really inefficients.
Also, the synchronized ROF was around 575. (I reckon we have it at 525)
BTW, the guns didn't always fire at that rate, but that depended by the engine's RPMs, and it isn't possible to create that with the current game engine.

Also, incendiary bullets are not modeled at all, while in fact one of the combination used in the belting was API-APIT-HET.

Some Weapon Mods do exist and they give these guns more realistic datas for bullets, muzzle velocity, ROF etc, and playing with those is totally different.

But perhaps an official change could come in the final 4.09 patch? I really hope so, even considering the fact that it took some of the modders about 5 minutes or less to change their parameters.

What do you guys think?


Cheers

Rick

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8...andezzafr9.jpg

Have just to agree about porked Bredas......

I'm not so sure. I've been able to get satisfactory kills with them. They're by no means 20mm cannons, but as long as you're up close (within 100m) then they do the trick just fine.

Agreed, the Bredas as well as other guns are not properly belted.

I for one would welcome the proper belting and hitting power for all munitions before the end of the IL2 Series (4.09). That way no matter how the sim progresses, we have the original authority in control of the munitions.

It is my sincere request 1c make the appropriate changes.

50's API thread
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2830

So far a lot of subjective comment ref the Breda 12.7mm in game. A browse through this web site might add some real data to the debate:

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaver...n/fgun-in.html

Also in the jpg below from Flying Guns of WWII (Pg 331) by the same authors*whose web site I refer above. The Gun Power column is perhaps the most relevant in this debate. Of all the 12.7mm guns in this table the Breda has the lowest gun Power. In relative terms thats what we see in game imo.

*Anthony G Williams & Dr Emmanuel Gustin , arguably the subject matter experts in this field.

OK i took this from my last thread on Bredas.The type of H.E used on the breda 12.7 ammo is PETN!(pentaerythritol tetranitrate, also known as pentrite, or rarely and primarily in German as nitropenta) is one of the most powerful high explosives known, with a relative effectiveness factor (R.E. factor) of 1.66. It is more sensitive to shock or friction than TNT or tetryl, and it is never used alone as a booster. It is primarily used in booster and bursting charges of small caliber ammunition, in upper charges of detonators in some land mines and shells, and as the explosive core of detonation cord. (source wikipedia)

Just a minor clarification, I am not a member of 150GCT (my squadron is 6S, I just updated my sig) but just a registered member of their forum, and I was not the one who made available the interesting reference about Bredas.

Apart from that I totally agree with your post.

Currently the 12.7mm Bredas in game have about the same firepower of a 7.7 mm gun.

Cheers
Maraz

Hi Maraz, changed that. Thank you for the clarification.

Monguse, I'm with you, maybe just a change in the belt compositions of these weapons could be somehow sufficient.

Cheers,
Rick

I still feel the Italian .50 cal is the most undermodeled round in the game. If anything it should at the least be as effective as the US or Russian equivalent.

S!

With respect no it shouldnt. The Russian Berrzin 12.7mm was perhaps the best 12.7mm Gun made and deployed in WWII. Have a look at the chart in my previous post and compare the Gun power column. 12.7UB gun power of 78, M2... 58 whilst the SAFAT comes in at 36. (though the 12.7Ub value is for a sync installtion)

This is a relative index comparing the total gun system ammo the lot. Sure an invidual round might have some cosmic HE compound in it but that needs to be seen in terms of rate of fire,Impact velocity etc. The Gun power index does that. Again if you research the book and or website you will see the data indicates the Breda SAFAT 12.7mm to be a realtively underpowered gun/ammo combination.

What we see in IL2 (imo) is at least in relative terms borne out by the available data.