Project " Battle of France and Low Countries " : Add-on for BOB
 

Hi all and Oleg,

I open this thread to sensitize community Il2 with " forgotten war " in period 1939 /1940 in western Europe ... especially to fly on forgotten planes : French, Dutch and Polish. Despite everything, they have beautiful and rich history !

That wants to also generate envy for the Developpers from 1C, players or people of third party team who would like to join to the realization of this project.

I propose to carry out Topos (with photos) describing History as well as possible these planes.

I thank you by advance for your support ...

( Post scriptum : A topic had already been open on this project here : http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/6961091644 )

Sorry for my approximative English...

Arsenal VG 33

Don't forget Internet site of "Arsenal VG 33" from Monsieur Franck DEVILLERS :

http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/entrer.htm

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/8...highrez8lm.jpg

HISTORY OF VG33
CARACTERISTICS OF VG 33
COCKPICT & INSTRUMENTS OF VG 33
ARMAMENT OF VG33
MOTOR OF VG 33

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5571/25358qw.jpg

Performances :

Powerplant: 1 Hispano-Suiza 12Y31 of 860 hp at 2400 tr/min at 3320 m.
Wingspan: 10,80 m
Length: 8,55 m
Height: 3,31 m
Wing area: 14 m2
Empty weight: 1716 Kg
Loaded weight: 2448 Kg
Maximum speed : 455 Km/h at level Sea; 554 Km/h at 8000 m ; 545 Km/h at 6000 m.
Time of climb at 5500 m: 6 min 5
Time of climb at 8000 m: 10 min 16
Service ceiling: 11 000 m
Range: 1200 km
Endurance: 2 hours 50 min
Armament: 1 canon HS 404 of 20 mm (60 per outboard gun) placed between cylinders of the engine + 4 machineguns MAC 34 M39 of 7,5 mm ( 500 per outboard gun).

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9291/vg302gc0.gif
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3161/vg301up9.gif

Obviously that remains theory, one did not know his performances in operationnal configuration ...

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8...3photo11gu.jpg

The performances of "Arsenal VG 33" seems to be unreal with a less powerful engine of 60 hp than that of Dewoitine D-520
and with only 200 kg less in load. A VG 33 of series could climb to 5500 m in almost 3 min of less than D520... it's almost too beautiful one could say.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9232/vg3316lc.jpg

Would the performances of the production aircraft have been the same ones as those of the prototypes? (DO not forget that the conditions under test are always ideal !! ) The pilots of tests were enchanted by qualities of flight of the various prototypes tested, without hesitate to qualify them so exceptionnal.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3...3double7xs.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5617/vg330035ij.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7949/vg3010lj9.jpg

2 unknown factors of size about Arsenal VG33 :

- which would have been the fire resistance of these planes out of wooden?
- Which would have been the resistance of the adhesive employed on this apparatus entirely built out of plywood?

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7373/vg30c1la9.jpg

Arsenal VG 33 had some developpments, here:

- VG 32 : alternative of VG 33 équiped with american powerplant Allison V1710 (C15) 1040 hp.
Biggest size of this constrained power plant to a lengthening of fuselage of 0,48 m... consequently improving the smoothness of plane.
Armament envisaged: 2 canons of 20 mm and 2 machinguns of 7,5 mm.
The first flight of l'appareil was pushed back in June 1940 by lack of the American engine (not launched in great series of production).
But it was too late...The VG32 has never take off.

- VG 34 : Powerplant HS 12Y45 of 910 Hp. 575 Km/h at 6200 m (official test).

- VG 35 : Powerplant HS 12Y51 of 1000 Hp. First Flight 25Th February 1940 ... it disappears without leaving traces after 15Th April 1940.

- VG 36 : alternative of VG 35, powerplant HS 12Y51 of 1000 Hp, it is provided an ventral radiator embedded in the fuselage
with a Flush exit thus a new canopy with side panes. Speed : 590 Km/h at 7000 m (official test).

VG 36 :

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7554/vg360ow.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3313/vg3601hx7.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5265/vg36xz5.jpg
(Source : http://www.aviafrance.com )

- VG 39 : Powerplant HS 89ter of 1200 Hp. With this special powerplant, impossibility to place 1 gun of 20 mm enters the
cylinders of the engine as on the preceding models a armament of 6 machine-guns 7.5 mm in wing. Max SPEED : 625 Km/h at 5600 m (official test).
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9782/vg391pp9.gif

VG39 :

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7924/vg396bm.jpg
( source : http://www.aviafrance.com/ )
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9047/vg39fp2.jpg

Projects :

- VG 37 : Development of VG 36 with powerplant HS 12Y51 (with carter de 89 ter) et compressor Szydlowski B generating 1200 Hp.

- VG 38 : Development of VG 36 with powerplant HS 12Y53 of 1000 Hp, with biturbo Brown-Boveri entrained by exhaust gaz.
Calculated speed : 670 Km/h at 8000 m.

- VG 40 : Development of VG 39 with unknown Rolls-Royce Engine or HS Engine 12Z generating 1600 Hp.
It is envisaged to assemble a radiator identical to that of the VG 36 and one armament of 6 machine-guns ( + 1 canon of 20 mm with HS Engine 12Z).
Wingspan 11,60 m and weight approched 3 tonnes.

VG 40 :

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6...bisvg402rl.jpg

A small thing that i have forgotten :Arsenal VG33 seemed equal to Dewoitine D520 but it was easier to control (impossible to check now!!).

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5...nalvg334yu.jpg

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/1092/vg33main3by.jpg

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7...3plate13yz.gif

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1...enalds50vf.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/10/76360061pn.jpg

VG 33 tested by Luftwaffe after fall of France :

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7...ftwaffe1cq.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9840/vg33i7yy.jpg

Only less of ten Arsenal VG33 flew in Squadron in defense of French factory in 1940 ...

ARSENAL VG33 from Squadron GC I/55 - June 1940:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2540/vg30c2jn3.jpg


Sources :

- Hors série n°7 "La chasse française inconnue de Mai-juin 1940" LELA presse 1998 (http://www.avions-bateaux.com)
- Aéro files n°1 " l'Arsenal VG 33 " Aéro-éditions 1998
- Aéro-journal n°46 (Dec 05/janvier 06): article "L'arsenal VG 33" - Aéro-éditions (http://www.aero-journal.com)
- http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/vg30.html
- http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/vg36.html
- http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/vg39.html

Don't forget Internet site of "Arsenal VG 33" from Monsieur Franck DEVILLERS :

http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/entrer.htm[/b]

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6498/dsc0079tl5.jpg

Hi Saumon

I am also interested in the BoF scenario. I've been trying to find sources for details of the early 1940's airfields in Northeast France but most of the web based info seems to be later, after the Luftwaffe took over the fields.

Have you any suggestions?

Nice looking aircraft the VG33

I am so happy you have brought this thread here Saumon! It is a great project and worthy of Olegs cosideration.

Great project, actually one of the forgotten wars (at least in the air).

I really hope that SoW:BoB will be made open for development by third parties (aircraft, maps, objects); or (if not fully open) at least more available to incorporate works made by others, so that such good projects can be developed.

Maraz

Hello Ashehouse!

Many locations for these "plateformes d'opérations" as they were called then can be found in the "DGAC CD-ROM" which is a historical research attempt at listing airfields created between 1908 and 1948; For each of the bases cited there is usually an extract of the local 1/25000 map with colouring made by the author showing the extent of the original french "plateforme" with the german extensions as needed and sometimes the US ones as well.
This CD-ROM does not list all the fields (there were many) but most of the important ones operationally speaking are there. Also many of the BEF created platforms are not mentioned, nor are the German created platforms. Other info can be found at the STAC in Bonneuil sur Marne (bring your scanner with you...).
Some BEF info can also be found in the recently published "Battle of France" book.

I must say that I wait with impatience the way that BoB-SoW will depict all those German and French places...The accuracy here will be a very important factor for immersion but I am not confident when I see the amount of energy (and of visits on-site) needed to get a grasp about the real layout of these airfields...
I just hope Oleg has an access to amazing information sources and local honourable correspondents neither I nor local historians have never heard of in all these years of passion with these old places in Northern France!
And important it is: you just have to consider the incredible quantity of work and dedication people like Ian Boys and several others have put to create airfields looking like WWII airfields (Banff, Imphal, Herdla...), not like 1960 Cold War Soviet air bases (Il2...)

If needed, I can help a little and I have already proposed to OM...still waiting!

JV

Where can you get the DGAC CD-Rom from?

One request Saumon - refrain from posting images upon images. This makes reading the thread and getting its "core" rather difficult. I already "bailed out" of the thread at Ubi because of the image flood. Thx. :)

IMO the BoF is a prime candidate for a full-blown AddOn by Maddox Games (unused topic, interesting types etc). However I disagree on the notion that a load of obscure aircraft types should be modeled - most of them french. For the LW it's easy. There were basically three subtypes of the Bf 109 which formed the backbone of the Luftwaffe fighter force at that time - Bf 109 E-1, E-3 and the first E-4s (although they wouldn't be really necessary - E-3 was much more numerous). The French Air Force had a lot more types but I think concentrating on the historically relevant types - Hawk H.75, MB 152, MS.406 and D.520 - is a lot more sensible than looking up each and any pre-series model or prototype France had in development at the time of the german attack. Why? Because there are french bombers to model, too. And some earlier german ones. And earlier british aircraft. And ground objects. And ... *sigh* ... You get my drift.

That plane looks like a Yak3... makes you think as the French were flying the Yak3 in Russia. Could this plane have been the basis of the Yak3
:)

@Freddie: no, both planes are not related

@Thor: I agree with you. Arsenal VG33 could have only a place in a "what-if"... if one day all necessary aircraft for BoF are modelled (something I highly doubt...) then and only then people could start to think on "what-if" planes.
.... but in any case, IL2 has shown that no third-party 3D-modellers are interested by BoF (only exception was the external model of the H75)... and we all know M:1C will not do it... so the probability BoF will ever see the day is extremelly low.