Hey R@S, how are you?!

I´ve been out for a while but, after noticing the down of Strategy First Forums I´ve found this 1C forum. And, it makes me feel happy to know you are still active.

Congratulations for the BSM mod, I´m already playing it and it´s great!

Keep it up!

In 2009 or 2008 I´ve found Van-d-all on Mount & Blade Forums and that´s all from the old guys.

Any news from afp?

I´ll be around.

Cheers!

Hey Quicky, glad you found this place and that you're enjoying our work. I remember you really investigated some aspects of 7.62 and made some interesting discoveries, do you have any new discoveries for us or are you just enjoying yourself playing?

I saw afp over at the ARMA2 forum, but that was half a year ago, and he was active over at sixthsense back then too, dunno his whereabouts now. But I guess he's up to his old tricks wherever he is:grin:

I still have sporadic contact with some of the old guys, and some of them have found their way here since SFI went down.

Laterz

So, in your words the game should have only one handgun, only one SMG, only one shotgun, only one assault rifle, only one sniper rifle and only one MG, because IN YOUR WORDS they're all copies of each other and they're so similar to each other that it's not worth having diversity, guns of different makers.

If you feel that way about variants of the AK-47 I am curious what you think about the variants of the M-16 that are in this game and about the fact that there ARE multiple variants of the AK already in the game... Do you find them superfluous also? After all, the M4 is only a shortened M16, not to mention the Colt AR-15.

Why then does the vanilla game already, not to mention this mod, have so many weapons that are practically a copy of each other with only small variants? Why the mini UZI and micro UZI when there's already the regular UZI? Why AN-94 when there's already AK-47 and AK-74? Why RPK when there's already RPD? Why all the SKS copies? Why all the handguns that are so similar to each other and yet very few people actually keep using them after they get their hands on rifles and SMGs?

I'm sorry, but your argument is null and void, defeated by the game and the mod themselves.

PLEASE tell me you're just making a joke. Cause that would be the dumbest thing to EVER say.

I'm no weapons expert, BUT even I know that not only do weapons vary from one version to the next, but also individual weapons vary between each other. no weapon is exactly the same as the next...

Hell, even Jane's agree with that... a couple of decades ago they had a huge test, comparing the Kalashnikov to it's copies, variants, improved copies,... You know which were the two best? Zastava and the original AK-47.

Which means other AK copies were worse than these two, which means that AK copies not all are the same.

If you actually ever used all those AK copies you claim, you definitely wouldn't go around claiming all are the same, unless you're a total US patriot, with a flag pole in your front yard and your every second sentence would be "American stuff is the best and everything else is crap". Many US soldiers rather used the AKs they took from captured or dead enemies in Nam than use the M16, if they were allowed/able to.

My country's armament was a mix of Yugoslavian, Eastern European, Asian, Russian, etc. weapons (now we have that Belgian shit that breaks in the cold and the jams have to be fixed in an armory by a trained armorer; instead of easily in the field by the soldier himself as it was with Zastavas). In my own fireteam we had guns of different makers. I personally had a Zastava M70AB2 made in 1989, a couple of my mates had Romanian copies of AK, one's was newer than mine. We naturally compared our guns.

The difference between them was huge. Not only was the build quality of my gun better (like comparing a Mercedes to a Polski FIAT, everything was better from the metal to the furniture), it was more accurate, more powerful and more reliable.

To sum it up: no, AK and it's copies are not all the same and, YES, Yugoslavians DID have the right to claim our "AKs" were better than those of other countries.

First, I never said all "variants" were the same, nor do they perform the same. Aspects of a firearm such as barrel length, weight, lining, muzzle brake style, fittings, method of attachment, rifling twist, and even age/use can cause variants of the same style to differ in performance. Stocks, grips, mode of fire, and every functional component can also cause variances in performance data. What I'm talking about is when a weapon is a nearly 100% identical copy of another other than the name. Where every little part is interchangeable with the other. Where upon inspection, with markings removed, one person could not tell the difference between the two, then I really don't see the point in having them.

You are trying to compare an M4 with an M16, or an AK-47 with an AK-74? Those are completely different weapon systems, with different calibers, barrel lengths, or other major functional differences. There are no simple cosmetic differences between them.

If someone were to lead me to a table covered in different AK-47's, all fresh from the factory with identical handling and identical number of rounds put through them, but just made by a different factory, then nearly 99% of them will fire the same. Sure, different factories will have different tolerances that lead them to produce items that are slightly better or worse than the other, but their overall performance difference is going to be so slight that the average shooter will not be able to tell. I'm talking very minimal MOA changes, doesn't matter if it was made in Russia, China, Yugoslavia, or wherever.


You mention that Jane's made some comment, but you failed to note their conditions of the testing. How many rounds were fired from each weapon before their test? What type and level of maintenance had been performed on each weapon prior to the test? What type(s) of ammunition were they using in each weapon during the tests? All of those things can have performance differences on a firearm, and in order form a proper baseline you need to ensure that all weapons start with the exact same tolerances, and the test is done with the same ammunition from the same lot. Any variance in those standards will foul the results.


Yes, some weapons that I have used performed better than others of the same family. But never have I seen a weapon within the same tolerances that did so at a drastic level. Again, there might have been very minor differences in ballistics data, but soldiers aren't going to be picky about a weapon just because one of them is .5 MOA more accurate (excluding marksman weapons).

Having used AK's from all over the world, made by various manufacturers and with various levels of use/maintenance, I personally will stand by my point that the M70 series weapons I fired had no drastic performance differences over any of the others of equal tolerance. Note that I say "Equal Tolerance". I will not say that the Zastava rifles performed any more or less equal, because from my experience they performed at the same level as the other models.

I also never said that US-made weapons were any better than others. Personally, I tend to prefer H&K pistols over any other. Same with their SMG's. But different manufacturers produce different weapons with different features, and because of this I will often choose a weapon system based on the specific mission requirements. I might go with an M4, maybe I'll go with a G36, it all depends on the actual mission at hand. For me, country of origin means nothing. Specific features of a firearm and the reputation behind the manufacturer are my primary deciding factors.



I'm not going to turn this topic into an argument about which firearms are better, or which manufacturer is better, or which country is better. I know my level of experience and time handling the weapons, so I'm comfortable making statements based on my own opinions. If you want to shout out about how wonderful your country's rifles are, fine with me. I don't have to agree with you about it, you're free to make your own comments based on opinion. R@S is the one creating this mod, so he has final say in what goes and what stays. And since we are both "equals" in his eyes as players of the mod, he'll make his own decisions on which opinions to base his decisions on. If he adds copies, that's his choice.

I'm definitely not trying to start an argument, I was just trying to explain why I believe your argument doesn't hold water, at times using the technique of over-exaggerating-to-bring-inconsistencies-to-light to help with the task.

The point of it was: if there are so many variants of one and the same weapon system in the game even though the differences are minimal (the perfect example being the G36), if the developers had THEMSELVES put the Zastava LK M59/66 carbine into the game even though the game already has it's "parent" rifle, the Simonov SKS; then putting the Zastava M70AB2 definitely has merit and would not be stupid nor superfluous, especially since the M70 is actually an IMPROVED AK-47... It's NOT a mindless, plain clone. Same goes for other models, the M-76 sniper rifle, the Black Arrow,...

Yet get what I'm trying to say?

Personally, I see no functional difference between a Russian SKS and a Yugo M59/66, other than the grenade launching system. I personally owned a Yugo model while a friend owned a Chinese model. The two were nearly identical other than the above-mentioned launching system and a few cosmetic differences. I even used components from his rifle inside my own rifle out of curiosity, and it worked flawlessly.

So what point is there in having both a Russian SKS and Yugo SKS in a game? If the grenade launcher works, then that's your answer. If it doesn't work, then the answer is "None".

The developers were far from being firearms experts, and probably not even one of them was a prior-service military soldier. They probably wouldn't know the difference between an AK-47 and AK-74 without having to read spec sheets a dozen times over. So just because those guys decided to add in multiple "copies" of the same firearm doesn't mean that R@S or any mod maker should do the same. R@S has a chance to avoid the same mistakes the original developers made. Maybe the developers even used different ballistics data to distinguish the two weapons, when in reality that would have been false. Again, R@S and the others have been using more accurate ballistics data.

So in the example of the SKS, my opinion is to either add the Yugo M59/66 OR the Simonov SKS, not both. It doesn't matter which one you add, hell it could be Chinese, Romanian, Albanian, Yugoslavian, what ever. Just choose one and use it, dump the rest.


In note to the M70AB2, there is quite a bit of difference between those and the AK-47. It would more closely relate to the AKS-47/AKMS, which like the M70AB2 have an under-folding stock and stamped receiver. Of course the M70AB2 also has the grenade system, but other than that their functional differences are minimal.

I can see having various models of the AK family, with different barrel lengths, stock types, calibers, etc. But why have two weapons that look the same, feel the same, shoot the same, share the same parts, have 98% identical ballistics performance, and have the same functions/capabilities? So again, my opinion is to pick ONE model of each variant, I don't care what the origin, and lose the rest. If it gives you a chubby to see an M70AB2 in the game instead of an AKS-47/AKMS, then I have no problem with that. I just don't want to see both.


It's the same reason I don't want to see a Colt AR-15, DPMS AR-15, Bushmaster AR-15, Armalite AR-15, etc all in the game at the same time when they are all equipped with the exact same features. If they all have the same caliber, barrel length, stock type, furniture, etc then the name doesn't mean shit. Pick one, and only one, and leave the rest out. They're the same damn rifle, with their only difference being the name engraved on the side of the receiver.

You get what I'm trying to say?

It would really bother you so badly if there was one extra gun in the inventory? :confused: It's not as if someone would be holding a gun to your head, forcing you to have to use it... :???:

Thanks for confirming that part of the mod is optional. :)Will you be doing this through text-editing the INI files, or something more complex? For example, I've already been able to artificially increase Cameron's attributes (i.e. Hearing, Experience, Reaction), but not his adjustable skills' minimums (despite changing in the .ini file they're still a minimum of 30 in-game).

Also, is there any issue if I edit the character's starting inventory, but then it's full when I receive my luggage, or if there's not enough room for all of the luggage? I don't know if the result is randomized, but I did the "starting inventory quest chain," had my pockets, arms, and belt emptied before receiving the luggage, and I was given a UMP40 with loaded magazine, two empty magazines, a pair of 50-round boxes of .40 S&W, and a Hiking Backpack.I fully intend to do so. :D It's not to say that the JA2 system is bad, but rather that it does have much more leeway. In general I would create a high-LDR/WIS merc from I.M.P. (paying a flat $3000 fee), but who crucially will never need to be paid, and from there he and Ira (my first "indigenous merc" who doesn't need to be paid) can act as my training cadre... something that I'm not sure is viable in vanilla JA2. (I admit to 'tweaking' the config files to make Dynamo and Shank actually viable as anything...)

Yeah, when creating the new player guards I'll create new ini files for them and setting them accordingly. There is a random option to make some variations in those inis, so they likely have small differences even if they are the same type.

The skills for the presets(player) are hard coded and you can't change them through their ini files. The parameters on the other hand aren't and you can change them freely.

The game engine will recognize a full inventory and will place the given objects on the ground if that happens, no need to worry about inventory space in those situations.

I've made some preset inventories that will be given depending on player class, there is no random element involved.


I have the ability to make a similar setting in this project, making mercs with high leadership and intelligence train the militia faster, and maybe also a little cheaper. I would have to adjust the merc salaries oc, and maybe some other stuff to make it balanced. But as I said before, this game offers a lot of variables to tweak the economics. It'll require a lot of testing, I hope you feel up for that:P

Now, regarding guns a-plenty...
 

You mean through the Variants option already in the Editor, or using the Probability option? (i.e. setting percentage chance that that item will appear when that variant is used.) That's cool, but I never did understand what Templates meant compared to the Variants.The thing is, I don't understand why said skills would be listed (without any line break) then... seems a waste of space in the INI file. I'm guessing that this is not the case for the NPCs and recruitable mercs though?

Also, I'm looking at the ITEMINFO (where weapons' display names and Info are kept... but what's "a SUM rifle"?), WEAPONINFO and WEAPONINFO_ALT (can't tell which is entirely yours, though I see that they have different weapon stats), but how much of the weapon attributes are editable by text editor? For example, I'm guessing that I can change the HK416's default magazine to a standard "M16" magazine instead of a "C-Mag (M16)," as well as allow a MP5A5 RIS to accept "Weaver Rail" (should be called Picatinny) optics?...

Personally, I think a great solution to the "redundancy" or "incorrect stats!" dilemma would be if the INIs can be tweaked enough that we can excise or restat weapons. :DGreat, glad to hear.Considering that you're not using the class system as default yet (though for that preset inventories makes sense), what's the case right now when not using classes?Hey, I'm already checking out and 'playtesting' your mod, though mainly the weapons. :P

**

I can sympathize with Ninjadan, as besides redundancy, "too many guns" results in screen clutter -- in JA2's "Bobby Ray's" (the in-game online store) using v1.13, last I played that mod, the first four pages of the Assault Rifles section were all Kalashnikov variants. :evil: On the other hand, I feel that R@S has already done at least a decent job of avoiding this in many cases while leaving plenty of visual variety for people that say, might want a MP7A1 over a TMP. There do seem to be limitations though, such as the vertical foregrips being treated as "separate weapons with non-removable bipods" due to the game engine, or the HK416 variants being fixed-stock weapons due to being imported from HLA.

I do feel though that at least according to the Editor stats, some of the weapon variants don't seem different enough... or rather, that you have stuff like "same inventory size, slightly faster Ready Time, but much worse Accuracy" for certain carbines... or situations like how the M4A1 becomes a "4-square" weapon when its stock is collapsed, yet it's a 5-square weapon when the stock is extended, even though the barrel is 5.5 inches shorter than the full-length M16's either way. (By the way, the "M16A1 late" is actually the M16A2 visually.) I noticed a similar issue with the shorter HK416 variants and the G36C/G36KE... except that the G36C and G36KE both become 3-square when folded.

I do have to find it oddly amusing though that if I fold the stock, I can fit a suppressed SMG or the HK53 into a guy's Ammo Pouch, but not a HK416 CQB... oddly amusing, considering that they're all collapsible-stock "subcompact" carbines, aka "subcarbines," or "short-barreled rifles" (SBRs); heck, I'm surprised that suppressors don't affect weapon size! (In JA2 you could suppress a MP7A1 while it was in the Machine Pistol Holster, but once removed it could no longer be put back in unless you removed the suppressor or had a larger container.)