109 elevator trim
 

I am not a 109 jockey, nor am I anti-Luftwaffe, I seek maximum accuracy for this sim/game. If you answer this please do so with history in mind, not how your stats would be affected in game. Thanks.

My questions are about how elevator trim is used in game compared to real life.

1. How is it operated in a real 109?
2. Was it possible to apply it in combat, easily or normally?
3. What effect did this have?

I've heard that some 109 guys are using it to gain lead and can initially stay with even the Spitfire for 1/2 turn as it breaks for get off a few shots, I have certainly experienced this myself. I don't think we will know if this is true for real life, I would be surprised or I would have read about it.

Of course it could be flap they are using and the same applies - I struggle to see how a pilot could make a combat turn at G whilst turning a big wooden wheel in the cockpit.

I would like to see the 109 trim or flap modeled in such a way that if it wasn't used in real life then it should be very hard to apply in game to gain advantage.

There's a bug raised against flaps in the bugtracker here:
http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/28

Afaik the turn-dominance of the spitfire was in the sustained turn, so it might be according to reality that the 109 can stay behind in the beginning.

Iirc, it was the same with the 190 turning behind a better turning fighter.

In a 109 you might set a bit of nose up trim before the fight and correct that with the stick lightly forward, but that causes a drag penalty, costing you speed and energy.

The same with the use of flaps, which might give a slight increase in turning performance, but reduces again speed and energy so you loose more than you gain!

So, any pilot using this "advantage" throws away the advantages of his ride for a very fleeting increase, and if that one chance solution doesn't work he is out of luck.

One might also take in account, that because of the sensitive elevator of the spit the initial turn might not be as hard as it could be out of the fear of a stall.

The trim and the flaps in the 109 are reacting so slow in game (turning the wheels and its difficulties is simulated and it doesn't work with a axis!) that this "bug" is pure fantasy in my eyes.

r/l 109 flap/trimming operation:-
11.7" dia wheel with 5 3/4 turns between full up and down ( ~+3.4- -8.4 deg movement of tailplane)

RAE report on a captured 109e notes excellent placement and ease of operation. Also noted is the ease of using both with one hand to counter the nose down effect of flaps on aircraft trim (~10 deg nose down at full flap)- taken from 109 pilots notes by Crecy.
I'd also point out that a big wheel has more 'leverage' than a small wheel- but i haven't seen any force measurements for this

Can't recall anything on use of trim/flaps in combat as such but there are quotes of using trim (carefully ) to pull out of high speed dives iirc.

You can have trim on a wheel but not flaps Robtek.

But the use of trim to pull out of high speed dives is set before the dive isn't it... Osprey thinks poeple are using them in combat.

Ive never heard of anyone doing this. Like Robtek said. You could trim nose up and gain a minute advantage in the iniatial moment of the first turn but it still wont let you hang in a prolonged turn with a spitfire... The trim is so rough and over responsive If you where using it in combat it would throw your aim off.

Why dont you test it out for yourself? You will see how obsurd an idea it is.

"Trim-trick" was indeed used sometimes by some ace pilots in real life (Finnish ace K. Karhila was one of them). But like 5./JG27.Farber said, in game trim is too rough to use in combat situation, at least for me.

Unfortunaetly I never had the chance to fly a real WWII fighter. No idea how the elevator trim is used in game compared to WWII real life fighters.

I'm convinced that the BF109E-elevator-trim is very close to reality. The quoted bug afaik is a "1c forum myth".

I'm sure, it was. But I'm not sure wether a good BF109 pilot changed speed / energy against a better turn rate.


The trim-wheel allows me to move the aircraft control surfaces in small increments and hold that setting. A properly trimmed aircraft is much easier to fly, nothing more or less. A properly trimmed BF109 will be faster and / or safer.

Trimming the elevator allows me to maintain altitude or control climb or decent rate. It is not ment to gain advantage over a better turning fighter, for example the Spitfire.

If I do not want to climb I adjust elevator trim by causing the nose to go level or at a slight nose down angle of attack will allow me to gain airspeed as fast as possible.

If I do not adjust elevator trim and push the nose down by forcing my stick forwards my plane will increase speed but at a slower rate and control pressure may become excessive at high speeds and I will not achieve the maximum airspeed potential of my aircraft.

To increase turn rate and decrease turn radius, I use the flaps. Using flaps at the right time in the right situation can get me the lead I need to get a shot at the enemy or allow me to evade an enemy's gun fire.

Happy flying

Varrattu

I did not find a reference in my quick search for the trim in combat but I did found this:

Knowing this, it must've been possible to apply it in combat while controlling the plane with the other hand.

EDIT:

There you go, it was used frequently according to this fighter pilot!

For a DIYS-Flap-setting-indicator on Bf109 please have look:

http://forum.sturmovik.de/index.php/topic,835.0.html

Translation:

http://translate.google.de/translate...c%2C835.0.html

Happy landings

Varrattu

Sorry to turn the table around Osprey but I am getting curious to understand the difference between a Bf109 Elevator trim vs. a Spitfire Elevator trim

ehem, sorry I forgot. I rephrase:
the difference between a Bf109 Elevator trim vs. a Huricane Elevator trim ;)

WTF?
You really believe that you are getting your precious part kicked just because somebody is using the elevator trim to gain an advantage over you!?

C'mon man, you must be a terrible noob (which I know you are not) to lose a fight because of this!

I will tell you what the difference is:
Elevator trim has a very smooth axis progressive movement which most cheap joystics do not!

So, if one has a "cheap" joystick ("cheap" means inferior construction materials NOT buying price) and it has "spikes", elevator movements are going to be crap and he is bound to fly lousy and bleed all energy while doing corrections.

Likewise, if one has a good joystick but have done the trimming incorrectly and does not fly with smooth subtle movements his elevator movements are going to be crap and he is bound to fly lousy and bleed all energy while doing corrections.

For this reason a "lot of people" (actually very few people, mostly people from Russia who understand about things and are not preparedto pay the 200-400USD ridiculous prices of good joysticks sold in the Western market) mod their joysticks themselves and fix the technical part this way.

Other people with less understanding (e.g. myself) just keep using their MS Sidewinder2 FFB joystics (and bin the Warthogs...) :D

Summarizing:
If one's joystick axis pots are crap,
if one does not know how to setup the axis movement in the game,
if one does not know how to handle the joystick in order to ensure a nice smooth flying
then he better use the elevator trim....

...or just learn to fly :D :D :D :D :D


~S~

I believe the issue is the speed of response of the trim control, especially on the 109. The RAF fighters have got the same problem in the sim, but the elevator trim was much easier to operate in real life.

It was indeed possible to operate the Emils trim wheel in combat and many pilots did it, obviously, it was normal part of flying and fighting, but:

The point is that the wheel in the sim is nothing like the real thing. The design of the 2 wheels stuck together was to turn them both in order to compensate for the nose-down tendency of the aircraft with the landing flaps being deployed. (This is also a bug in the sim as with 'octopus effect' switched on, you can't operate one while the other is being used). Pilot was turning both wheels with his left hand simultanously.

With elevator trim assigned to an joystick axis, you will be able to get full effect of the trim within split of a second whereby it took much longer in real life and the response was nowhere as swift. Give it a shot, you'll see. With this 'exploit', the 109 is way too manoeverable and you're actually winning turnfights with Hurricanes and you'll be able to hit Spitfires breaking hard while diving on them full speed. I fly all planes in game and I find this a severe issue, just like these nose ups with flaps down and other sci-fi physics.