Censorship and what to buy: 1C/Anton please help!!!
 

I am a long-time PC fan of the "IL-2" series and really look forward to playing "IL-2: Birds of Prey" on the Xbox 360 and therefore will buy the game, so that is not the problem.

I however have one question: which country version should I buy, which is the least censored?

At the moment I am staying abroad and working in the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) which has some of the most severe so-called “youth protection” censorship measures in the world when it comes to electronic entertainment (among other things). I will leave the FRG again when my work here is done.

I however can also have a friend from the Netherlands send me the Benelux (Dutch) version. The Benelux does not have censorship as severe as the FRG has. But if I wait for the Benelux (Dutch) version then I would have to wait for a few weeks before I receive a copy of "IL-2: Birds of Prey" and when I buy the FRG (West German) version I can go out and buy one copy today.

I have been touring the internet to find out if the FRG (West German) version of "IL-2: Birds of Prey" is censored and if it differs from the Benelux (Dutch) version, but I was not able to find any reliable information on this subject. I am not referring to the Austrian versions of games, which are usually less censored than the FRG (West German) ones, but are still more censored than the Benelux (Dutch) versions from what I have been able to find out.

Games that have been altered to comply to FRG so-called “youth protection” censorship for example include: HOI1, HOI2, HOI3, Rainbow six Vegas 2, BIA3, Fallout 3, COD4, COD5 etc. etc. etc. not to mention Xbox Live DLC that is blocked/altered and whole games that are unavailable such as GOW1, GOW2 etc. etc. etc.

So therefore I want to ask directly to 1C (Anton): does the FRG (West German) version of "IL-2: Birds of Prey" differ from the Benelux (Dutch) version sold in the Netherlands and if so, what exactly has been omitted/cut from the FRG (West German) version?

It may seem irrelevant, but I would like to play "IL-2: Birds of Prey" as close to what 1C is allowed to offer to its adult customers and don't feel the need as a 30+ year old to be further restricted in my electronic entertainment by complying to so-called “youth protection” FRG censorship measures, especially since I am not a FRG citizen and only staying in the FRG for the time being.

To be sure that there is no misunderstanding from a legal standpoint: non-FRG software versions may legally be owned in the FRG, but they may not be sold in the FRG by retailers. So I am not talking about breaking any laws here.

1C/Anton could you please supply some reliable information on the subject: What is the difference between the FRG (West German) and Benelux (Dutch) Xbox 360 versions of "IL-2: Birds of Prey", if any?

While I don't actually know if the German version of Il2 BoP differs from the versions supplied to the rest of the world, I see no reason why the content would be censored. Birds of Prey has no blood and no swastikas or other political material that might be deemed offensive enough to need removing, and it has an age rating of 12 over here, where the minimum age rating of the games you have listed as being censored is 15 and more in the case of games that are actually banned like GoW (18 rated).

Some terms used on the RAF radio to talk about germans... could hurt some german player perhaps.

I doubt the German language voice-over is like that :D

The UK game has an age rating of '7' so it will be safe to assume they are all the same at that there is no censorship. There are no Swastika's, blood and the enemy all bail out, there is nothing too censor.

Well it is not just symbols, blood and visuals in general. It takes on more serious forms, including "under the hood" items.

In HOI1, HOI2 and HOI3, a sort of strategic political/scientific/economic/military simulation, there is no blood at all and all symbols have already been self-censored out by the developer from day one, as is becoming the standard practice in the "free" world nowadays.

In HOI1, HOI2 and HOI3 have not only the tiny images of certain political, scientific and military leaders been self-censored out but even their names have been changed, omitted etc. etc. etc. For instance the then German President and Prime Minister has been renamed Armand Hiller, the then German Air Minister renamed Hans Gorink etc. etc. etc. HOI1-3 has specific game events that also have been altered for the FRG version, so a lot that is (self-)censored is not visual.

Only the developer knows for sure what he has had to take out of his game in order not to offend the sensitive censors. And therefore consequentially nowadays a lot of what goes out of a game becomes the result of pre-emptive developer Orwellian self-censorship.

In Rainbow Six Vegas 2 the FRG censors did not want to see an achievement for headshots and in BIA3 it was the kill camera that had to go among other things. And who knows what else was taken out in the four months it took to specially make the FRG versions of those two games? In the Fallout 3 Japan version the atomic bomb explosion had to be taken out among other things.

And those are just the examples that I know of. Practically all countries have these shadowy "youth protection" sensorship units by the way, even the USA so it is not just the FRG that does this to be fair.

Maybe in the FRG version all then-German plane markings have been taken out (meaning the German wing and hull beam crosses, unit markings, aircraft numbers etc.), references to or names of well known historical then-German Luftwaffe pilots/personnel removed or maybe on-line German plane performance altered to prevent censor unwanted on-line German virtual-kill-ratios, who knows for sure except 1C?

But before paying 120 Euro's for two "IL-2:BOP" copies, I would like to be able to choose the country specific version that offers me the most realistic/historical experience of the excellent IL-2 simulator! And for that I need help!

I can't help, only commiserate...after living in England I can safely say Australia is "pro-active" in "protection"...e.g. games are censored to buggery and they're trying to ban energy drinks ffs:rolleyes:
Your English is better than alot of Brits! Stick with UK as I've never really encountered any censorship issues there...
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Thanks! Sad to hear Australia is drifting in the same censorship direction. I´ll keep the UK version in mind instead of the Dutch version then.

I really would like to buy my copies today, but I don´t want to run the risk of buying a neutered FRG version. I hope 1C will say something on the subject, but it being Friday and all means that they probably won´t answer until Monday, if at all.

No quite the contrary actually. The FRG censors don't mind any derogatory or defaming remarks concerning Germans and/or Germany in games in general. There is no FRG censorship national pride to hurt, no worries there!

I thought the only censored thing in all versions was the swastika? I can understand that,but i sure hope nothing else has been cut?

I'm from Holland and i reckon i'll get whatever they have in store (sometimes the stores i go to have US and or UK versions prior to Benelux versions) But now i'm a little confused..is the Benelux version more censored than the UK version?

I can´t say if the UK version is censored more or less than the Benelux version. Only the developer knows for sure.

There can be many different country versions of a game look at Fifa for example. I don´t know if what is on the DVD is really different though for the different country versions. Just the setting of software settings (switches/indicators/flags) would make more sense per country version, allowing DVD game content to be accessible or not. The same way that extra DLC items are sometimes already on a game DVD but only accessible after a switch has been set.

The USA and Japan use NTSC TV system DVD´s. In Europe (including UK) it is the PAL TV system. So I doubt that you will be able to buy a console USA NTSC version in a Dutch store because a European market PAL TV would generally not support NTSC. For a PC game of course this NTSC issue would not be applicable.

Next to that there are different ways the censorship is being handled for consoles specifically. There could be different DVD versions per country, with content cut or altered per country version. This would require extra work for the developer with many DVD images and software versions. A different approach could be one single game DVD for all countries but with content turned `on` or `off` depending on the current IP address or the country code of you console, meaning the country you are currently playing the game in. This - according to some - is the direction developers are going to take in the future, which I really don´t hope!

That would really be bad news, because that means that the accessible game content on your game DVD would change depending on where you are playing it (IP address or console country code). For instance GOW1 and GOW2 are not allowed to be sold in the FRG. And the COD5 DLC´s are censored - ostensibly ´for the youth only´- in the FRG, even if you have bought and paid for them when your console was in the NL or when you played on a Dutch game console. For instance at the moment USA armed forces personnel that have bought COD5 console DLC in the USA cannot re-download this DLC at a base in the FRG, even though they have already paid for it!

A developer could also be instructed by Microsoft to not allow a console game DVD or some DLC to be played in country X if that game/DLC is censored in country X. The EU commission could instruct Microsoft and Sony to operate this way. That would mean that your GOW1/2 game console DVD would function when you have a Dutch game console or when you are when you are in the NL (IP address), but it would then not function in the FRG. And the same would then apply to your DLC.

In that case it really would not matter in what country you buy your console game DVD.

At the moment, thankfully, to my knowledge this is not implemented and hopefully it never will be.

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In Dutch - Of er verschillen zijn tussen de Benelux versie en de VK (UK) versie is mij niet bekend, dat is nou juist het probleem.

De VSA versie is NTSC en die kunnen wij niet op onze PAL systemen afspelen. De Benelux versie herken je zo, daar staat zowel tekst in het NL als in het FR op de achterzijde, voor NL, Vlaanderen en Wallonië dus. Het VK (UK) heeft zijn eigen versie, net als de BRD. Oostenrijk heeft volgens mij tezamen met Zwitserland ook weer een eigen versie. Niemand publiceert wat per land gecensureerd wordt, vandaar mijn vraag aan de ontwikkelaar. Hier in de BRD is het echt een probleem. Mensen kopen daarom nu bij voorkeur over de grens om die reden. Waanzin!

Bijna elk land heeft een zogenaamde `jeugdkeuring´ en die bepalen wat wel en niet `in de winkel` voor verkoop mag liggen en waarvoor reclame gemaakt mag worden. Volwassenen mogen zogenaamd wel altijd alles kopen, maar als het product niet in de winkel mag liggen en er ook geen reclame voor gemaakt mag worden weet je niet dat het bestaat en zal je het als volwassene dan ook niet kopen. Officieel heeft dit geen censuur, maar officieus en praktisch bezien is het wel degelijk censuur die zowel voor de jeugd als voor volwassenen geldt.

Het hakenkruis is in NL overigens niet verboden, in COD5 Benelux is het dan ook niet gecensureerd bijvoorbeeld.

Wat vervelender is zijn eventuele subtiele `onder de motorkap` wijzigingen. Deze zijn veel moeilijker waar te nemen dan visuele zaken en grijpen op spel functionaliteit en werking in, zoals in het nieuwe PC spel HOI3 bijvoorbeeld.

For all the censorship and general banning of stuff going on in Germany, it's no suprise you guys still have problems with Neonazi groups - the censorship and banning actually helps them blend in with society.

Sucks that it extends to games too.

We shouldn't whitewash history unless we want to repeat it. Hopefully the German version of the game is the same as the others.

it's probably the same version, just with german voice-overs on EVERYTHING.

I asked anton why all swastikas have been removed from the game, and he said it was because of censorship rules, not just in germany...

Although I understand he doesn't want to offend evryone, I still tink it's bullcrap the rest of the world has to play this game without swastikas just because of the germans, while other games like call of duty have lots o' swastika's...

@ Widar:

uhh...ever heard of region free ps3 games? I have imported atleast 3 games from Renchi,based in Hong Kong and got asian/chinese versions of some games that never got a western release (yet)These are Aquanaut's Holiday,Hakuna Matata/Afrika and Demon's Souls.
I also have the US version a couple of games can't even remember wich, i believe Fight Night 4 amongst others. I have a European PS3 (bought in a dutch store) They all play without any problems what so ever. ALL ps3 games are region free and will play on ANY PS3...Blu ray and dvd on the other hand are region locked. I don't know about the 'locked content' thing you speak of,but i guess ignorance is bliss in that case!!! I think that UK and Benelux versions will probably be the same...the only country in europe that 's notorious for censorship is Germany..I'll take my chances with any version i run into in the dutch gamestores.

Thanks,though for your very detailed and elaborated post,Translated and all!! :grin: very nice! I appreciate it! You from Holland too,or did you use a google translator?

In Dutch: Alle ps3 spellen zijn regio vrij.Ik heb minstens drie titels geimporteerd uit Hong Kong en heb een aantal US versies gekocht in mijn vaste gamewinkeltje!. Ze spelen zonder enkel probleem op mijn europese ps3 (gekocht in Nederland).Dus om kort te gaan: ELK spel speelt op willekeurig WELKE ps3. Blu-ray en DVD zijn wel regio locked.Dat van de 'locked content per regio hoor ik nu eigenlijk voor het eerst,maar in dat geval: wat niet weet,wat niet deert,toch? Eigenlijk denk ik dat de UK versie en de Benelux versie wel het zelfde zullen zijn,volgens mij is Duitsland zo ongeveer het enige land in Europa dat zo debiel doet over censuur. Ik waag het er op als ik mijn schijfje morgen ga halen bij de lokale game boer! Kom je toevallig ook uit nederland of heb je er een vertaler overheen gegooid? Hoe dan ook:

Bedankt voor je gedetailleerde en uitgebreide mail,vertaald en al! Dat waardeer ik zeer!:-D

^Whoops..never mind! I just reread your topic (first post) and saw you where talking about xbox 360 version..my bad! The ps3 however can and will play all versions of all games on any ps3 system.

Before this post sidetracks into a `lets bash the German common man` for 1945 censorship laws which the German common man really has no way of changing or influencing, I must set something straight.

This post is just about a question to 1C/Anton about the difference between the Benelux and the FRG BOP version in terms of censorship that is all. I just want to know what I buy before I buy it. I just bought HOI3 and the FRG version has been thoroughly self-censored by the game developer to avoid official censorship and I want to avoid this with BOP should that also be the case.

So let´s not change this post into blaming a people for a government and the laws they have to live under and then state that that people is the cause for worldwide game censorship. People get born in a country and from day one they must obey laws they never drew up themselves and pay lifelong taxes on account of huge government debts they themselves had no part in making and that they will never be able to pay off. Let´s not blame the common man or a people for any of it.

The removing of symbols, names and other items in games worldwide generally has nothing to do with `youth health protection` censorship in the FRG specifically.

In the USA there is also a `youth health protection` scheme. The director of Battlefront games in the USA explained on his website forum a few years ago why he took certain symbols, names and other items out of his USA only release Combat Mission game because of the ´youth health protection´ measures in the USA. The fact is that under the guise, pretext or whatever you want to call it of rubber paragraph´youth health protection´, the censor can say that a game, book, cd or whatever is dangerous to the health of a child. Then that product may not be publicly advertised and not sold in public places (stores and the like). Which in effect means bankruptcy for a small or medium size game developer.

No game developer wants this to happen to his product obviously. So game developers censor themselves and leave stuff out of their game in advance to avoid getting hit by the `youth health protection´ censors worldwide. Some game developers are more brave than others in this respect or are almost immune to censorship like COD and GTA because of the big money and influence behind them.

Bedankt voor je antwoord. Ik ben ook een kaaskop! Vertalen via Google zou nooit goed gaan, dat levert hele vreemde teksten op, dus alles zelf geschreven.

Dat van die PS3 regio vrije spelversies e.d. wist ik niet. Ik heb nl. geen PS3. Kennelijk hebben ze dat bij de PS3 wel mooi geregeld, zo ik begrijp beter dan bij de Xbox 360. Zo leer ik elke dag weer iets nieuws!

Ik hoop dat die lui van 1C antwoord geven op mijn vraag, maar ik denk het niet. Jammer want dan moet ik hem maar op laten sturen uit NL en kan ik weer meer dan een week wachten op BOP...

Ik vond het zelf ook een aangename verrassing hoor toen ik hoorde van de regiovrije games. het is wel prettig moet ik zeggen,want er zijn wel wat japanse pareltjes te scoren via import die nooit of nauwelijks een europese release krijgen.

On topic: Ik zou als ik jou was beter een weekje wachten en zeker weten dat je een goede (relatief ongecensureerde) versie van Bop krijgt,dan dat je later spijt hebt van je duitse versie..(ik heb wel es gehoord dat sommige duitse versies van games GROEN bloed hebben,ipv rood? kom op,zeg. dat is toch gewoon sneu? )magoed, ik begrijp je dilemma,want ik zou er ook wat voor over hebben om Bop NU in mijn gretige klauwtjes te hebben! :-P

Ook nog maar even in engels zodat andere mensen ons ook begrijpen :-P (verkorte versie)

English: If i where you i'd wait a week and get UK or benelux version (that would have 'less'censorship,if there is any difference in the first place). I feel your pain though,because i'd give My Kingdom for a horse..errr copy of IL-2 Bop NOW!!!!

If you have an HD TV the PAL / NTSC issue won't affect you. HD resolutions (both interlaced and progressive) are standard worldwide. Obviously they can also display lower resolutions such as NTSC (480) and PAL (576). :wink:

RIGHT ON ! I couldn't agree more ! History is History.
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I actually meant the german government instead of the people, my choice of words was a bit unfortunate...

Ahh and so I learn something new every day! Thanks for the info.

I don't know if a European country code Xbox 360 can play an NTSC DVD though, it should not be a problem probably, but I don't know for sure.

That's ok no problem, just wanted to prevent this thread from turning into a people bashing event.

Nice signature image.

Well you are probably right, especially since there is no response from 1C or Anton Y. on my question. So the safe choice would be to wait for the Benelux version for a week or two. Just hope that the upcoming BOP German cockpit DLC is not censored here also...

Anyway, yes some games have green blood in the FRG. I watched Left 4 Dead being played here recently and there was green blood in that game. I don't know if that is also in the Benelux version because I never saw/played that game in the Benelux.

UPDATE on IL-2 BOP censorship in the FRG: At least one BOP part has been censored as far as I have been able to find out. The historically correct name of the President and Chancellor of Germany during WWII has been censored, I will call him "Armand Hiller" like Paradox Software did in HOI1-3 in order not to offend the sensitive FRG censors in what the administration in Germany calls "the most free German state in history". It seems that somewhere in IL-2 BOP the historically correct name of "Armand Hiller" is spoken or shown and where that is the case that name has been left blank or has been omitted/removed.

Makes one wonder what else has been censored in the IL-2 BOP FRG version.

Just order the UK version. It's a safe bet for getting a game that is as uncensored as can be and usually it's out earlier. Furthermore I don't think there is a Benelux version, it should be the one that Anton referred to as the 'EU' version in one of his posts and that's the one that Germany gets.

I really cannot see how mentioning Hitler in a historically accurate context can be against the law (even in Germany), but I gave up trying to understand it...

I am definitely not buying the FRG version. Who knows what else 1C was forced to censor in the FRG? I am glad that 1C left "the name" blank, to let the people know that something is being censored instead of making a special FRG version to accomodate the FRG censors in which the FRG censorship would have remained hidden.

To answer your question, the FRG censors actually do not really follow the law at all. I read the legal paragraph on which the FRG censors base their censoring and a prohibition of mentioning that or any other name is not actually in the constitution of the FRG. What they use for censoring is a legal paragraph that they bend and twist in any way they want to, so that in effect the FRG censors can censor whatever they feel like actually.

So now I am going to exercise some patience and wait for about two weeks until I can enjoy a clean healthy non-FRG version of IL-2 BOP. I just hope that they NEVER implement instant in-game content blocking via the Xbox 360 country code or IP addressess.

Hopefully the upcoming IL-2:BOP DLC (incl. German aircraft cockpits) will not be censored in the FRG as well, like for instance the GOW and COD5:WAW DLC's. But there is a way around that also, next time I'm abroad I just download all "forbidden" DLC's. It still is a major nuisance though.

Interestingly the (large) retailers I spoke to about all this said that game sales in the FRG are really being hurt by this FRG censorship because Germans now just buy the FRG-censored games abroad or via the internet. The best answer game developers could probably give to FRG censors would be to just stop releasing censored games in the FRG at all and let the people buy non-FRG censored games abroad or via the internet.

Anyway, I really look forward to playing IL-2 BOP when the time comes! Ahhh, the virtues of patience...

Just order it at Amazon.co.uk. It's on stock and will ship the same day. It's the FRG/EU version that is delayed.

Will do!

So,there's a version in wich Hitler's name is faded out,and one where it is mentioned?
I got the game,but i don't know wich version it is. The text on the back is only in english,but it mentions eu.playstation.com. It also says the game will quickstart in (illustrated with flags): english (there's two union jack's???) and then i think finnish,swedish,norwegian and portuguese.
These are also the languages featuring in the manual...

any way of knowing wich version i have?

That's the UK version that I have as well. You may stop worrying now :grin:

I,ve got the German Version (USK) of the game. I can confirm that in the German (USK)-version the name of Hitler is faded out. But this is the only thing. On the same DVD is also the English "uncut" Version.You only must set your Systemlanguage to English. I can only say that for the PS3 version of the game.

Many Thanks! Although if the only omission is Hitlers name,i wouldn't mind at all in the first place,sure it's kind of strange to ban the most important historical figure of WW2 in a WW2 game..but that's an entirely different matter ofcourse....