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-   -   Tracers or not? (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=7861)

revi 06-08-2009 09:21 PM
Tracers or not?
 
I read that some American pilots stopped using tracer bullets. The advantage being that their hit perctage increased and likewise their kills. I wondered if in IL2 the tracers were actually modelled as a bullet that can make a hit or not? If not, is it possible to chose a loadout that does not have tracers?

virre89 06-08-2009 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revi (Post 79120)
I read that some American pilots stopped using tracer bullets. The advantage being that their hit perctage increased and likewise their kills. I wondered if in IL2 the tracers were actually modelled as a bullet that can make a hit or not? If not, is it possible to chose a loadout that does not have tracers?
Maybe some stopped using it but why would you? I mean seeing as there were hundreds of thousands of pilots i am sure there are cases of just about anything , but from a logical standpoint why stop using tracers.. only reason i can see is to avoid detection easier or just playing dumb hero.

Seeing as tracers are as deadly as any thing else it would be weird if they didn't make an impact/damage.

Igo kyu 06-09-2009 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virre89 (Post 79121)
Maybe some stopped using it but why would you? I mean seeing as there were hundreds of thousands of pilots i am sure there are cases of just about anything , but from a logical standpoint why stop using tracers.. only reason i can see is to avoid detection easier or just playing dumb hero.
The reason for stopping would be that the enemy tends to notice tracer going past, but might not notice non-tracer that didn't score a hit, which is your non-detection. Most shot down pilots didn't know the shooter was there until they were shot down, which implies that pilots who knew where their enemy was were generally not shot down, so not alerting enemy pilots was a big deal.

Quote:
Seeing as tracers are as deadly as any thing else it would be weird if they didn't make an impact/damage.
Sometimes, in IL*2 when offline and at reduced speed, it has seemed to me that the non-tracer rounds don't hit as often as the tracer rounds, indeed, it's not always clear that there are any non-tracer rounds (I'm pretty sure there are some, actually). Which might actually be sensible, if the muzzle flashes synch with the sound, and the sound is at full speed while the time is slowed, it could be that most of the sounds and flashes you percieve are actually not fired due to the time dilation.

revi 06-09-2009 08:45 PM
I've tried to find the article I read, but no luck. I'm sure there was mention about the velocity of the tracer bullets at impact range had something to do with decreased damage.
I am refering to the .50 browning.
No doubt the inability of enemy pilots to see the tracers would've helped keep the all important factor of surprise.
One more thing that I remember reading was that at the end of the loadout they used to have 5 tracer bullets in a row, this was to indicate to the pilot he had run out of ammo.
But also let the enemy know that too.
I think it would be interesting if we could disable tracer bullets in game, and have the upper hand on the AI.

flyingbullseye 06-09-2009 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revi (Post 79192)
I think it would be interesting if we could disable tracer bullets in game, and have the upper hand on the AI.

If the AI can see you through clouds and on the other side of a hill not having tracers won't make a difference.

Flyingbullseye

revi 06-09-2009 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingbullseye (Post 79195)
If the AI can see you through clouds and on the other side of a hill not having tracers won't make a difference.

Flyingbullseye
OK...yep thats a bummer too.

K_Freddie 06-09-2009 10:56 PM
I do remember that some allied aces opted for no tracers, for reasons already mentioned.

Adolph Galland seemingly escaped the attention of a few P51's by firing his guns while being chased. He fired his guns (for no reason at all !!) but he thinks that the tracer smoke and discarded shells hit his persuers a/c causing them to break off the chase, thinking there was an axis plane firing at them.

The shell 'streak' (long tracer line) is so unrealistic and a visual effect of film cameras that capture a frame image of 20mS, where the shell streaks by.
It should really be a point (shell image) and nothing else. The tracer smoke trailing behind the shell
:grin:

Igo kyu 06-09-2009 11:38 PM
The quote I remember is this:

Quote:
[The commanding officer] ordered the tracer ammo removed ... I'll never forget the spectacular results we got. Our kill rate went up from 50 to 100 per cent.
That is attributed to Colonel Charles W. King, USAF on page 10 of the book "FIGHTER COMBAT Tactics and Maneuvering" written by Robert L. Shaw. I'd like to know more about that particular quote.

IceFire 06-10-2009 01:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igo kyu (Post 79134)
The reason for stopping would be that the enemy tends to notice tracer going past, but might not notice non-tracer that didn't score a hit, which is your non-detection. Most shot down pilots didn't know the shooter was there until they were shot down, which implies that pilots who knew where their enemy was were generally not shot down, so not alerting enemy pilots was a big deal.


Sometimes, in IL*2 when offline and at reduced speed, it has seemed to me that the non-tracer rounds don't hit as often as the tracer rounds, indeed, it's not always clear that there are any non-tracer rounds (I'm pretty sure there are some, actually). Which might actually be sensible, if the muzzle flashes synch with the sound, and the sound is at full speed while the time is slowed, it could be that most of the sounds and flashes you percieve are actually not fired due to the time dilation.
A simple way to check this out is to fly along the water and spray a few seconds worth of shots into the water. You'll clearly see all of the bullets hit the water...tracers and other types of bullets alike.

Also you can enable Arcade=1 in the config.ini file and examine up close each impact and where it hit with what sorts of effects (explosive or AP) each bullet had.

Something else you can try is fly a Yak or La-5/7 equipped with the ShVAK 20mm cannon. There is only one or two tracers per several bullets. It takes a while before another tracer comes out.

334th_Rakkasan 06-10-2009 02:54 PM
Speaking as a former Infantryman for five and a half years, the most realistic tracer effects come from the Russian MG's. Allthough they are too bright in the daytime. They also look to "bloby", the rounds phosphorus trail should look longer, more like a streak than a blob.

Some of the "modded" tracer effects I have seen are laughable. Looking like old captures from WWII gun cam footage. For the reasons many others have mentioned, camera shake etc.. Tracers do not look like white corcksrews sailing through the air.
Sorry to go off topic, I agree that the primary reason not to use tracers is to keep the enemy from knowing you are shooting at him. I can't quote anything I have read regarding the topic, yet I have read (or heard on documentaries) many American Aces prefering not to use tracers.

Thunderbolt56 06-10-2009 04:36 PM
If a tracer round struck its target it had the kinetic energy to still do damage, but it was NOT an AP or API round and because of the burning phosphorous was known to be slightly less accurate.

In addition to the stealth factor as already mentioned and the fact that air combat was still in its formative stages in the 1940's there was still considerable experimentation going on. There have been many accounts of pilots directing their armourors to load strictly AP/API in something similar to a 4:1 ratio (Gabreski specifically) and doing away with tracer completely.

There's also the overriding factor of "perception" which has proven many times to be inaccurate.

IceFire 06-10-2009 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt56 (Post 79273)
If a tracer round struck its target it had the kinetic energy to still do damage, but it was NOT an AP or API round and because of the burning phosphorous was known to be slightly less accurate.

In addition to the stealth factor as already mentioned and the fact that air combat was still in its formative stages in the 1940's there was still considerable experimentation going on. There have been many accounts of pilots directing their armourors to load strictly AP/API in something similar to a 4:1 ratio (Gabreski specifically) and doing away with tracer completely.

There's also the overriding factor of "perception" which has proven many times to be inaccurate.
Aren't most WWII tracer rounds combined with something else? For instance the tracer round in the IL-2 belting is APIT. So its everything except explosive. Is there a finer detail that I'm missing?

Zorin 06-11-2009 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceFire (Post 79305)
Aren't most WWII tracer rounds combined with something else? For instance the tracer round in the IL-2 belting is APIT. So its everything except explosive. Is there a finer detail that I'm missing?
No, you are not. They are always combined with something else. For example, the German 20mm caliber supported tracers on all types except for the Mienengeschosse. The 13mm on all types and the 7,92mm on the SmK (regular AP).

choctaw111 06-18-2009 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorin (Post 79328)
No, you are not. They are always combined with something else. For example, the German 20mm caliber supported tracers on all types except for the Mienengeschosse. The 13mm on all types and the 7,92mm on the SmK (regular AP).
I have a book that shows many types of ammunition used in aerial warfare during the First and Second World Wars. The one thing that really got my attention is the German Mine Shell with a tracer. I never knew these existed until I saw the German info about it. I didn't see the 20mm, but the 30mm Mine Shells with tracers did exist.

Thunderbolt56 06-18-2009 12:20 PM
Perhaps I stand corrected IceFire. It was certainly my understanding though it appears I'll need to implament a paradigm shift and read further.

wannabetheace 06-19-2009 02:23 AM
I also don't feel right for tracers of IL2
 
It seems that physics of the tracer is not accurate as I expected. Shooting is the most important part in the game that give you the joy and excitemtent though the game itself is the best in almost all respects. And I always have kind of ill feeling to tracer of IL2. I hope it would be much improved in BOB. The speed of the bulled should reduce as it goes further. But it seems like it have constant speed. Maybe I'm wrong I just feel that way though.

choctaw111 06-19-2009 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabetheace (Post 79947)
It seems that physics of the tracer is not accurate as I expected. Shooting is the most important part in the game that give you the joy and excitemtent though the game itself is the best in almost all respects. And I always have kind of ill feeling to tracer of IL2. I hope it would be much improved in BOB. The speed of the bulled should reduce as it goes further. But it seems like it have constant speed. Maybe I'm wrong I just feel that way though.
The bullets in Il2 do slow down as they go further. I have tested this many times as I believe that the ballistics in a combat flight sim is paramount.
The simplest way to see this for yourself in Il2 is go to external view and zoom out far enough away that you can see the entire flight time of the tracers from the side view. This works best if you are sitting on a runway but can be done flying as well. Fire your guns and you will see the spacing between the tracers get closer and closer as they fly farther. This can only mean that the bullets are slowing down as they fly.


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