SOW: two versions.
 

A simple idea, but will do all happy and the game will sell 2x more!!

SOW Locked version

SOW opened version

I want the 2 versions!

would this mean that SOW rooms in Hyperlobby would have to be listed as opened or locked? It's an interesting idea, but given all the clatter about mods maybe it's best to follow Oleg's plans for add-ons?
Flyby out

I gota go with Flyby on this. I like olegs plan. I was enthousastic about it when it was anounced. IMO that's the best way to do it. Let's not further devide the community on this....before we even see what Big O has planed.

and before the spello cops come out...yeah i didn't spell/type check again so freakn shoot me.

The problem with this is, the locked version would not stay locked forever. People will try to get in from day one of release, IL2 was a locked game, look where it is now. You have to look at the mind set of people who do these kind's of things. They are the same type who enjoy making a virus, or leaving a paper bag on fire, after ringing your door bell. Besides 1C can not be expected to release two versions, at this stage of the game

slipball,
not to call you out or anything, but that's quite a statement to make about modders. I've seen youtube videos of some of the mods, and am impressed by some of the efforts. It does not strike me, nor does it seem to necessarily follow that (all of) the modders are the worst types that you portray them to be. I don't want to think that that such a poisonous viewpoint could be true. I think you are voicing your opinion, but is it really so universally applicable to all modders?
I guess I'm just asking for a bit of civility, and pointing out that such broad sweeping statements are unfair to make, imo. No offense.
Flyby out

I never said "modders", I'm talking about the original people that hacked IL2...those same types will start to attempt to open SOW upon release, I do hope that they fail

rgrt
 

I stand corrected. You are not implicating modders. I've made an ass of myself by assuming... Can you mod without a hack job? I guess I thought the were interchangeable but I'm not sure now.
Flyby out

I thought that Oleg has already said that there would be, or could be, an online component with officially approved aircraft/maps/3rd party stuff, and a second component that would allow open modifications, and that the two types would not cross over.

Beats me. all i heard about was off line 3rd party mods using officaly supplied tools from Oleg/1C. So so little comming out in detail about it, and a few screenshots post from Big O...hard to say. seems to be a wait and see.

Why not have the best of both worlds? If the game is modular by design (think FSX but with more control by the developers on what gets included, because we need a common basis for online play) then enthusiasts will be able to create new planes and submit them to the dev team ready for FM/DM testing and tweaking, they will save them time and give us more aircraft. And nobody will have to hack anything if the tools are there for the job and the game engine supports an open architecture.

I really don't see any harm in that. In fact, it might mean a couple of years ahead of schedule arrival of your favotire theatres for all of you pacific and late war fans.

The challenge is to make an engine that can accurately compute flight models based on the aircraft's shape and design. Of course that's too much for our PCs to handle with all the bells and whistles of a modern sim and that's why most flight models use ready made tables and approximation. However, maybe a developing tool could do that...you design a plane load it into Oleg's wind tunnel software and it calculates the FM for you ready to be imported in the sim as a new flyable. For one, i would love to see clickable pits at some point and WWII era nav aids and blind bombing devices.

Flyby
You are missing the point that I tried to make. That is: That someone will eventually hack SOW.

And yes some of the mods are good, but that begs the question are some people using game tweaks in competition. That's why a closed game should remain that way:)

Original view on hackers, Blackdog.

Hackers do not crack a game because they want to mod it, but because they want to cheat. So if you have an open game for flying for fun and a closed one for competition, it's still a large motivation to crack the game in order to provide cheats for competitions.

Maybe for IL2 there was an additional motivation, as some people felt cheated by Oleg for some porked favourite aircraft. The outcome is the same: To give yourself a benefit, either against opponents or against the original thing.

And the comparrison to FSX? Well, I doubt there's much competition in FSX, so nobody is hurt by a pegasus passing by your cockpit. But in SOW?

I suppose if any tweaks affected enhanced FMs or DMs of any aircraft, those could be considered cheats, imo. But a tweak that allows 6dof that's available to everyone seems more like a mod. Perhaps therein lies a subtle difference: maybe if a mod is looked at as a general enhancement that (optimistically) the developer might have released (as a patch?) for general consumption, a hack might be looked upon as an enhancement (again) of specific FMs and DMs to benefit only a secret few. I know this is very general, so I'd tend to look at sound mods for specific aircraft as examples of mods. A Spit Mk 5 with a top speed of mach 1. 892 would be a definite hack job of an FM, and a "cheating" example. I guess the line is a very fine one depending on one's viewpoint. Some think any mod might be a hack-job. But is that a cheat? I think any mod that enhances the atmosphere of a game for everyone is fine by me. I don't see it as cheating (it's a level playing field). Obviously cheating is cheating, and all the term implies.
Yeah someone will hack SoW. It's the way of software. But if it's a mod rather than a cheat...well. You know.
Flyby out
PS no offense to anyone by my views. I personally hope SoW will be improved to the mutual benefit of the developer and the sim-er.

I never mentioned hackers and two versions. All i'm saying is that a single version is enough, as long as it's a modular design that can easily be expanded in the future with new flyables, new aircraft subsystems and more realism in everything as the PC technology progresses and allows for more things to be handled by the CPU.

As for FSX, i clearly stated something about control by the dev team, but you got me thinking into a certain direction by talking about lack of competition. I think all of this issue has blown up in our faces because some IL2 fans either feel their favorite ride is porked and want to cheat, and some others care too much about their online stats. You want to know what the problem is with IL2 modifications? It's the fact that it's a competitive game, even if we suppose that somehow magically all cheaters disappeared.

Silent Hunter 3 had and might still have an enormous modding community that made the stock game about 10 times better and more realistic that it initially was. Why? Because it was mostly single player and its limited online functionality was on a coop basis.

But with IL2, there's too many stat babies around who polish their virtual records to see that we could have a positive outcome out of a negative initial incident. What's funnier is that most of these people are the same people who deny developments in functionality for certain aircraft while they pump a load of cash into peripherals, HOTAS, rudder pedals, TrackIRs, touchscreens, triple screen setups and countless other gadgets to ensure guess what? An unfair advantage over the enemy.

It's bad for someone to run a high res cockpit with easily readable gauges, removed forward bar and gyroscopic gunsight on a late war 190 (some marks had ascania sights, D9 late or Ta152, can't remember), but it's ok if i can track him with less than 1/10th the effort he makes because i pumped 150 euros into a TrackIR4 and another 400 Euros into a widescreen 2ms response time monitor? Isn't the playing field upset by our respective hardware and wallets? of course it is.

There is no level playing field in general because we all run different systems with different peripherals. The closest you can get to quantifying things like that is ensure that the playing field will be level when comparing identical simming PC setups, ie you have to test stuff in an office filled with 10-20 identical PCs.

So, that's why the best course of action is to
a) make the game easy to mod with officially supplied tools that create files recognizable by the sim instead of modifying files manually (ie hacking)
b) use this recognition ability to judge and either approve or dismiss new content on a company level and
c) use it to create efficient checksum routines that allow each server,online war or competition to enforce part of the list of 1c sanctioned mods for everyone in the particular online session.

If a server wants to run N. Africa campaigns and there are the tools to create maps, some people will create a map, others will create tropicalised variants of the aircraft involved, they'll submit it to 1c for tweaking and approval and voila, the company has a new theater for their sim that not only satisfies their high standards but they also didn't have to work for themselves.

I'm sure the game will be awesome when it ships just like IL2 was, but as technology advances we'll want more and more. If i were a software company i'd be delighted in having a bunch of enthusiasts creating content for free, content that enhances the longevity and sales of my products. So, instead of locking everything up and waiting for someone to hack everything and risk the emergence of cheats, i would give them the tools to create content that could be submitted back to me for approval and keep only the important stuff locked. This way, changes to the software can be made in a controlled, sanctioned environment.

The important stuff is the way the FM/DM is calculated, not if the B17 is flyable or not. As long as the B17 has an accurate FM/DM then yes, someone make it flyable please and include a cockpit too while you're at it, thank you very much.

I think Oleg realises all this and that's why he said numerous times that they'll take 3rd party communities into account. For example, clickable cockpits are not in their plans, but it will be possible for a modder to make them clickable.

Yes, Black Dog, you was perfect! +1!
With opened version, Will be another fun trying to do a contribuition for game, will be so good like fly, like do a artistic skin, a good sound file, mission, map, efect, a new smoke...
For IL-2 hope 4.09 give a revision in velocity planes, you know theres fix to do, and all players want a Oficial revision: Only 1C can give this for IL-2 community, so dont spend time with maps, skins for 4.09.
I hope 1C consider do a opened version ( loked FM/velocity/guns) , this way nobody will hack SOW and 1C will DOUBLE MONEY with a sigle game! Dont like $$? Listen your fans, post a question in AAA community, all will be happy! Say Yes 1C!

If I remember correctly that is the case. You'll be able to fly either a locked 1C produced/approved version or an unlocked version that allows mods. Can't say fairer than that to Oleg.

Indeed, seems like the best possible compromise.

+2
rgrt.
Flyby out

+3

That would be AwSim!

In a perfect world this would work, but if the locked version is used in competition, somebody will hack it. It's naive to think otherwise, it happens to all games:-P

So no difference...you say game will be hacked if Oleg allows independent modding or not.

You slipped up here a bit. ;)

Anyways, the Offline players will need the independent modding, and the Offline players are the customers who pay for the "free" online competition gameplay...

...unless the sim is Pay-To-Play on the publisher's server. I guess that would be 1C or UBI server?

As well, independent Online War fans who can create far more immersive online dynamic campaigns than the developer/publisher could make use of independent modding -- the unofficial FB/PF modding is growing in popularity with online players without being "killed" by cheating as predicted by the doomsday cult.

@lexx

when will it reach your brain that there are only buyers of a game and no offline - online separation!!!!
Your separatism is really disturbing!!
What in the world makes you think that online Gamers should pay more than the offliners for using that game???
When you have bought the Game the publisher gives a s**t what you are doing with it!(except cracking and copying of course)
Following updates are for all customers.
Sorry for my outburst but when i always read about online vs offline i couldn´t hold it anymore.

This is wrong.
Just read various online squadrons web sites, and you'll see how much onliners have stopped to play and the multiple complains about the difficulties to play online without creating a gazillion of different installs (with different mod choices).

FB/PF modding is growing in popularity on the general web sites, but certainly not in the online crowd.

I dont want "separatism", i will buy both, but mod comunity need a oficial place, not a wrong vision like years ago, i like online game and i like the freedom of creation, but without conflit, with a friendly software for people who like to produce new ideas and details, and 1C can receive free work and make "oficial" a mod creation, making a deal with "Credit Name", a big honnor for a Modder, isn't a good idea from game evolution?

;)Lot of stress on this site just recently , try and remember---- Its only a GAME....Cheers .Jafa.;)

robtek:: No apologiky required. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...leys/Heart.gif You merely have read incorrectly, as we see on this page, I am the greatest fan of Online play community. What you are reading into my poast is the classical Online gamer vs Online community conflict. True Online communities have the same goal as Offline players. The two are One.

See the first line of my SiG for the most famous example of Oleg crippling his own flight models for everybody in an attempt to prevent "cheating" on anonymous public servers which caused the old forum Trim Wars years ago.

When the sim is crippled in attempts to prevent online cheating in anonymous public servers at the expense of the Offline players and true online communities, then the game needs to be seperated into two versions:

(1) One sim version for Offline and for Online players who know how to build communities that are not hurt by cheats or exploits.

(2) Reduced-featured or "dumbed down" game version for anonymous public servers that requires a crippled simulation to prevent cheats or exploits among unkown and untrusted gaming members.

RAMA:: Actually, that poses a challenging question: If there is a large number of non-mod squads now having difficulty locating other non-mod squads to play with, is it because there is such a small number of non-mod squads left? The ultimate Xen koan.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...estionMark.gif

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...ileys/Wink.gif

But ya I see your point. It does take *work* and some focus to build a community around one mod install. This is another great example of Online play no longer being a mere simulation of the social interaction, but becoming the real social world.

Lexx

Oleg is sending you some friend's to social with http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ll/GetLexx.jpg

Wrong.The most popular server at hyperlobby is a modded 409 server.Of the two most popular online wars,one is modded,the other one is going to be modded.
I know a lot of squads.The vast majority now use the mods in one form or another.

Regarding SoW,unless Oleg has changed his mind,the ONLY way you will be able to fly planes like the Do17 is if a modder makes it flyable.

On Hyperlobby I see a pretty even split between modded and unmodded DF servers and coops. Spits vs. 109s and Zekes vs. Wildcats are unmodded and still immensely popular, as is Warclouds, which is unmodded I do believe.

Seems to me there are servers for every taste. I fly modded and unmodded and enjoy both equally. The switcher utility included in the unified installer makes either version a simple mouse click away.

Anyone having problems finding a game that suits their taste isn't looking very hard for one.

The modded one isn't a good example... since the parser problems give it a small attendence.
For the other one... well... as you said... it is going to be modded one day... maybe... ;)

I agree (I also know a lot of squads)... but the vast majority has lost a lot of active pilots, and among the remaining pilots, a lot do whine on their squad forums about how difficult it is to have an install for each server/online war/coop/etc...

If you really know a lot of squad... you also know I'm not wrong... you just don't want to admit it... ;)

As long there is a centralized authority to control, accept and authorize the mod (as it was in IL2 before the hack), I don't see any problem...

They just opened a new full-switch, mods friendly server called Warbirdsof prey. It supports 6Dof and AI as flyables. The best thing is they are using a mix of Bomber Night maps. Worth getting in quick, before they swap to the standard late war generics.

Warclouds is apparently now 409b1.
I assume they are not using the 409b1 dedicated server,because thats a mod,and apparently they are anti mod! :)

That is correct, he did say it and not once. Big question is, whether it happens in initial release or not.

TY Ivan.

:)

You don't need so many installs, you just need a single install and a version swithcer, as long as you know how to disable certain mods from loading, it's not that hard. You just rename the mod folders according to instructions, you can even make batch files that do this automatically and name them "online war 1", "online war 2" and so on.

I don't know if it's easy or hard... and that's not the point...
The point is that it is anoying and boring enough (and not only "switching", but also retrieving and managing the gazillion mod files) for a lot of former active online pilots so they stopped playing online.

That's a factual observation after reading many squad forums.

Indeed that's why I gave up online flying, too much chaos it seems. :(

Still having occasional fun with my unmodded 4.09b offline...though pretty infrequently it seems.

this is all too crazy. multiple installs, switchers, ect. I guess I'd rather keep it simple, and not mod. When I return to flying status I hope there will be rooms that just fly un-modded '46. I've seen that some of the mods look and sound terrific, but I'll pass.
Flyby out

+1...divided we fall

-1

Those who are too demotivated to take a detailed interest in the game they supposedly to love should retreat back to the couch. They can hardly blame other fans of the series for being proactive and moving forward; putting in the time to ensure that they have a setup that is flexible and compatible with every mode of play. It is not difficult to do. You just have to apply yourself a little. And to be honest, I like it much better this way. I had almost completely outgrown the Il-2 series before the opportunity for third party development came along. The added scope that the mods have given the game have won me back. They just require that you take an interest beyond the Next and Refly button.

to each his own flavor...
 

I don't count myself as one who blames anyone for anything with regards to IL2 mods. I've stated pretty much that I like some of the mods I've seen: 6d0f, sound mods etc on youtube. In fact I enjoyed watching them. I also agree with you that those who are too demotivated to take a detailed interest in the game should retreat to the couch. I am not confusing that position with one in which people don't want to fly with mods. I see two separate choices. To each hos own flavor, eh? I'm sure you agree, Feathered_IV.
IL2 is, in all it's presentations a great sim. There is nothing wrong with flying what suits you.
Who knows what lies ahead for IL2? As long as fans still fly it, that's what really matters, imo. I may change my mind about using mods by the time I return to flight status. I know I'd enjoy some of them, especially the 6dof mod as I own TIR-3 with Vector expansion. Perhaps my taste buds will change by then. But don't be judgemental of those who fly to the beat of a different feather. ;)
Flyby out

With the exception of the French an Russian mod communities, the majority are using the AAA Unified installer. It's easy, it works, and it creates a de-facto standard. And as I said, if you want to fly standard 4.08, it is one mouse click away.

Again this "We modders are the real fans and you aren't" cr@p. :mad: Can't you stuff that nonsense where the stars don't shine and just let those who have no love for the macks play the game unaltered and without lashing out at them at least once a week? :roll:

Jeez, is it really that hard to accept that not everyone wants what AAA patches together? :roll:

and both flavors are represented on HL, at least? If so then all is well for those who want it both ways. Can't ask for more than that.
Flyby out
PS: I agree with Thor. I think life is too short to be hating on someone who doesn't like what someone else likes. I don't think either camp means to sound elite-ist. Being that the subject matter is a sim (after all), who wants to be the only one upset over divergent views about how it's played? Must I invoke Rodney King?

Well said.

Agreed, people that like the mods will use them, people that don't, won't. Pretty simple.
The mods are NOT going to go away no matter what anyone says so it is pointless to continue bashing each other.

Let's all just enjoy this sim for as long as possible; the choice of how you enjoy it being completely your own.