SOW Multiple sorties?
 

Not sure how to ask this, but what would be the scenario in SoW_BoB for a pilot to fly multiple sorties (during a mission/campaign)? The reason I ask is because some zealots here (not me!) may want to fly multiple sorties during one session. I wonder if that's do-able on line, as that would be the most fun (so I hear).Flyby out

Pilots in the Battle of Britain flew many multiple sorties. In combat flight sims I've flown multiple missions online in CFS and multiple missions off-line in BOB WOV. Its an immersion level sorrowly missed in the IL-2 series. I've never understood some of the negativety directed at the implementation of this realistic aspect of aerial combat.

Perhaps some virtual pilots do not have the patience or time to fly multiple sorties. I agree it would be most realistic. I'm sure some will have a different take on the subject. Yet there may be a group of pilots committed to experiencing the drain of multiple virtual combat sorties. Some guys like full-real efforts, or at least full difficulty within the sim. Maybe they will form a special room like a mini-campagin online. Within SoW, such a mini-campaign might represent a particular day in the Battle. Who know? Maybe a pilot gets shot down over the channel, and is rescued by his side, and gets back to his lines, but is finished for the day. Next day a new plane, and more sorties. All kept track in a fashion similar to the stats kept in existing online campaigns. A German pilot shot down over England is through for the mini-campaign (tough luck, but maybe realistic). Just thinking out load.
Flyby out

I don't have a problem with that. Its all about having Options to suit. Anyone can stop the mission or missions as they please. If I remember correctly, Oleg has stated that there will be some sort of Option for Rearming and Refueling. This should make it possible to continue the days actions in more immersive, connected, cohesive fashion. The option also opens the door for many more interesting scenerios for mission builders.

Chivas,
I hope there will be a refueling/re-arming feature in the sim. If so, then it will be a great time playing out the battle. ;)
Flyby out

Very important! this will change the On-Line International Competitions radically!!!

Also there should be flyable Boat planes for borh sides so one can resque downed pilot from the cold sea ...

Oleg should think of the game MAINLY in the lines of On-line Competitions because in the long run that's the only thing that will keap the title Alive like it did with IL2 series.

Not that I disagree on the rearm/refuel feature, Gaga, but IMO Oleg should think of the offliners first and foremost because an immersive campaign with great replayability value is what sells games, not the umpteenth "crazy feature" for the loud minority of the online dogfighters.:)

imho, the online component can exist with an immersive offline campaign. I would hope that the excellent IL2 campaign makers will fill the voids in both cases should Oleg take some unforseen direction. Thor, what is your definition of a "crazy feature" (surely not a rearm/refuel feature?), and what loud online minority are you talking about? I'm out of touch so clue me in. ;)
Flyby out

There are a number of things that can (and likely should) be added that many may not use at first. Consider this; remember when IL2 first came out and you'd go online and the high-fliers would be perched way up there at 3,000m? LMAO. These days more and more people are learning what a hard deck really is and how to use them properly. This has been the case for the last couple years, but it literally took a few years for that to really take hold.

As a result, there are aircraft that "seemed" mediocre at release that, these days, seem to be closer to accurate. Sure there have been some FM changes (amongst others) but the increased consistent use of energy-fighting tactics is likely a larger contributor to the success some rides have.

I make that analogy only to illustrate that a well-done combat flight sim caters to a wide variety of simmers and, the way I understand it, the initial release of BoB:SoW will be one aspect of air combat with most engagements centered around a small stable of aircraft meeting at relatively high altitudes compared to what most are used to. Adding diverse functions is something that (to me anyway) is a foregone conclusion and there will, no doubt, be options that can be turned on/off to make the experience better for those who wish to implement them.

Would this be the P47 elevator authority :rolleyes:

if I had my druthers, but in any case...
 

points well taken, T-Bolt. When all is said and done I'm sure Oleg's efforts will reward a wide range of simmers. Here's hoping anyway, if only for the good of Oleg making a profit so he can continue on to the next project. Meanwhile I'm going to self induce a coma until SoW-BoB is released. I guess that means I'll have to bribe the wife to bring me out of it when SoW is released! :D
Flyby out

Dearest Thor we have met these off-liners and they quit after couple of cruel encounters with the On-liners or even forget about the game all together.... It's my strong belief though that it's the On-line Competitions that kept and still do keep the core warm....

Therefore I feel I must insist on the issue that whatever affects and concerns On-line Competitions should be 1st priority for this Upcoming title to make any sense at all and to make the transition fast & easy.

Really I don't want to wait for couple of years before SOW based On-line Competitions will be available... Also I don't want to have the same situation as with IL2 where we couldn't have all the gear (A/C etc ...) we needed for such use.

What I mean mentioning "all the gear" we need is for example the fact, that Oleg overlooked for 8 years! to arm the Luftwaffe with the Me210 and the 410 and a multitude of other goodies giving a clear advantage to the Red side in all On-line competitions since VEF1 & on!!!!!!!!

the same moment the Reds though quite late actually could fly their PE2s...

Best regards

This topic is getting ever more interersting. Guess I'll have to put that coma on hold. ;)

I totally disagree.

With the obvious exception of my squad who I met online, virtually no-one I know that plays IL2 ever plays online.

Further evidence of this can be found by looking at downloads. The largest download at Mission 4 Today is IL2 joy control with 23325 downloads. Taking into account this is an unusual utility on just one download site this suggests a community of one or two hundred thousands players.

There are simply nothing like one or two hundred thousand players online. There are several thousand at best.


What the online players are good at however is whining :) Though few in numbers they are very vocal and very obvious in the forums.

Thanks mate...I try. ;)

Really though, trying to say one type of play is more important than the other is just people trying to embellish their favorite style of play IMO.

I play online...period. But, my perferences don't have any impact on what Oleg has designed BoB to ultimately be. Sure, I'd like for him to include a resident server-finder proggy and an easy, intuitive mission builder but that shouldn't proclude additional items like better AI commands, Tea-table scrambles from the tarmac and a detailed single-player campaign mode...that I would never use.

I agree but lets not cancel it as an option for those that do. I'd like to fly a squad night where I can take off and land to refuel and rearm multiple times.

by the power invested in me...
 

I hereby order Oleg to make sure that those virtual pilots who want to sortie several times within a session (online or offline) be allowed to do! So mote it be! (well, here's hoping anyway) ;) It would be waaaaaaaaayyyy cool :cool:
Flyby out

gaga:: A focus on "online competition" requires Pay-To-Play to make up for loss of interest among offliner paying customers who are looking for a more serious miltary simulation, rather than an arcade "Joystick Competition" type of game.

Worse, Oleg's original focus on anonymous public server play killed this sim from being a larger success, as Oleg made the mistake of crippling FB/PF in attempts to "save" anonymous public server gamers from each other and their forum accusations of cheating -- leaving the paying customers to go elsewhere...until...

...The mods. Many offlines are now returning with the recent availablity of mods, and are having to upgrade their sims and purchase newer versions. That's good business.

Good to see you again Chivas...in a RR thread!

Offliners also would enjoy Refuel and Rearm.

Extended fun missions can be made where the player can take off and join friendly intercept forces defending airfield of carrier.

Nothing would be more immersive in the sim than sitting on an airfield, or better carrier deck, waiting for Refuel before another attack may get through, and seeing puffs of friendly AAA high in the distant sky. Can you get refueled enough to get off the ground before you are sitting on burning airfield or sinking carrier?

A further challenge is deciding *when* to land. Assuming you have ammo remaining, do you have enough fuel to continue defensive sweep with other AI planes, or should you land now and wait for a slow refueling that will allow a more effective defensive sweep but could put you in a vulnerable position if enemy bombers get throught to your airfield or carrier. A good game requires the player to make strategic choices.

I am so sick and tired of the online-offline debate. If everyone has not noticed games are changing. When Il2 came out most people were lucky if they had 56k modems (dial-up-connections).
The only way to make a sim was offline with a few dogfight maps for online stuff.
The world has changed and broadband is here.
I am sure the offline experience is going to be awesome. But in the same breath one has to realise that new player (not us old farts) will be attracted to the genre only if it is a very good online experience.
Rise of Flight has realised this and my guess is so has Oleg.
Lets face it, for sales of SOW to rival Il2 sales Oleg has to cater for the growing online community.
Those without internet are fast becoming the minority. Now before some moron throws a book of stats they just googled at me showing how important offline play is lets look at game consoles (yes I hate them).
But even they have embraced a fast growing online community. Hardly any latest generation consoles do not basically require online connectivity to get the best experience.
For me online play needs – good coms.
To be able to land, rearm and refuel.
Moving ground items such as ships etc and a refined program such as SEOW to handle the other elements, land sea and air in co-ops and maybe and increase in mission times.
Dogfight maps with moving items and multi seats in planes even on dogfight maps.

For offline play it needs a gripping story-line, dynamic and historical campaigns and the ability to make a difference.

I firmly believe we will get most of what we want and as later incarnations of the engine are released it will just get better.

Well put!

Thank You gaga!

Bobb:: Those other online games, some possibly Pay-To-Play, are not the same thing, especially the consoles.

Sales of Oleg's very own IL2, as well as Thirdwire sims, have proven that Online can be safely ignored. Rowan's BoB2 also ignores online play, but that game suffers from a very problematic lomac-esque early releace and a difficult game engine to work with, so its not so successful relative to the costs.

Not that I'm against Online play, in fact I encourage it as it can attract many of a vast number of satisfied Offline play customers into -- potentially -- far more dynamic gameplay. Dis-satisifed Offline play customers abandon the sim and go elsewhere, leaving less resources for supporting "free" Online gameplay.

Meaning, you cater to the paying customers first -- the Offline players, unless you go solely Pay-To-Play, which is what Oleg has said he would like to do ultimately.

That's why the "debate" is more important than ever, so The Sims developers figure out why their attempt at focusing on "free" Online play has failed both themselves and their paying customers miserably.

Please do not misunderstand this, but just how sure are you that their will be a DVD release of the game :(
It is far cheaper for a distributer to release games in a "Download Only format"
And then at a later stage sell a DVD with two or three of the expansions include...


Just kidding, lets hope that never happens or else there would be no offline players would there?

Lets look at one of the most successful online games of all time WOW (I hate it) Over 10 million players, paying monthly subscriptions plus buying the original games at normal game prices...

Give SOW an air, ground and sea arm (a really vastly improved WW2online) and you could have something similair...
How far is that away, well some-developer somewhere is looking for the next big thing... My point is Offline is great, I play it, so is online I play it too.
But lets not get caught in the IL2 sold so-many copies because it was an offline experience. IL2 sold so many copies because it was a great product way ahead of its time. Offering users something they had never before experienced.
I expect nothing less from SOW, and if that is online or offline I will be happy either way.

Bobb, Thirdwire sims are download only, and essentially Offline play only. Online players claim its a "failure" but that's normal gaming forum behavior. Its a successful small business, although will remain small unless some things change ... open the sim to independent campaign generators like Lowengrin makes, making both sides flyable, etc...there's some deep issues holding the sim back there.

Yes, Pay-To-Play.

Yes, Pay-To-Play.


Mee Too. Oleg was my first WW2 sim, I ran out and bought it as soon as I saw flayable MiG-3 and I-16, my two fave WW2 planes, but like most Offline players, I fairly quickly got bored with it (got into StrikeFighters instead), and so FB/PF Online play stagnated from lack of funds to develop it, from lack of long lasting Offline player interest. How do I know this? FB Online War creator rnzoli told us that online play had stagnated .... but, this was last year before the mods which has given re-birth to the sim...both online and offline players alike I think.

Quite wrong...
Just compare HL standard attendance last year and now...

Mods generate a lot of activity on forums... but as expected, online greatly suffered from the variety of choice. Today, with the mods, there's not ONE possible game install, but myriads... so most of the onliners are restricted to squad play (groups with same or alike install...)
... just like we forecasted before the mods fashion... ;)

is that to say...
 

mods like the sound mods or the TrackIR mod make for incompatibility issues in online play, and so restrict participation to those who have them? Are there any mods that are compatible with the stock installation?
Flyby out

actually I really just want to know if any mod is compatible with a stock install, or does any mod require a seperate game install folder?

Rama:: Fantastic news, which I also forcasted in hopes this would happen. Squads are the way to prevent "cheating" without helplessly depending on the developer crippling the sim for the Offline players who pay for "free" online gameplay.

...unless you go Pay-To-Play.

...or Oleg focuses first on the Offline players who, if they are kept interested in the sim, can provide funding for "free" and "cheat free" private and anonymous public server gameplay which is what I hope Oleg does in the future, and I already know you agree (rather than pay monthly fees to ubi).

The only problem is Newbies who try online before joining a private squad (or not desiring to). Sadly, the anonymous public server segment had the last 7 years to join the Offline players and private server Online players in their requesting Oleg for *official* modding ability which might have been able to prevent any current "issues" with Hyperlobby, instead of the hack modding of today. But the vocal self-appointed anonymous public server "leadership" refused to offer support. Opportunity lost. Maybe its not too late for BoB And Beyond http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/icons/icon14.gif

Stress less, im sure SoW will be just as friendly to both on and offline players just as il-2 is.

If the forums are anything to go by, BOTH communities form a significant proportion of the game. To ignore either would be like cutting your already niche market in half.

Pay to play only becomes an issue when the company is running the game servers, it really has no place in this discussion.

Personally i think the single most important aspect in keeping a game running for a long time is community. Nothing will keep me coming back to a game 2 years after playing it like a good bunch of people waiting to greet you when you log in. Simple in-game tools like friends lists, integrated VOIP and squads can give this aspect a big boost.

For YOU... not for me and lot's of others.
For me it was the end of IL2 (I did play exclusivelly online).
I haven't flown virtually since February (hopefully, I have other hobbies, and RoF did take a lot of my time too)

This is an old and dated conception of online play.
When you tested online wars (with thousands of participants), missions and campaigns restricted to your squad attendance becomes tasteless.

No you don't know....
I'm not a-priori against Pay-to-play if the online war system is interesting enough

Instead of *requesting*, they should have *participated* to *official* modding.... which was not only a possible way, but a way used by many players, including myself (I have worked on some of the late maps, Norway, Burma, Online Italia, Bessarabia, Desert map).
... but well... history is written... we can't change the past...

I agree that the doors to "Official" modding could have been more open, better indicated and better documented... but still they were open...

Even if I didn't participated to the "after-hack" mod fashion, I went from time to time reading the mod forums (by curiosity)... and what I've seen (which I also forecasted), is that modders don't want *official* modding, they don't want common rules and quality control.... they want to be *free* to do whatever they like (including modifying FM and DM).
Yes, many of them to have talent and put a lot of efforts in they work... efforts that they would most probably have not done in if there was a quality check sanction (not that they would not be able to reach the quality standards... but the only fear not to be able to reach them would stop them to just try).

With SoW:BoB, it will reach the same way.... whatever the official modding capabilities.
Modders (some of them at least) will be unsatisfied, will ask for more opening of the modding capabilities, will rand on forums that the game miss that and that and that FM, DM, etc... could be better (which is allways true... but doesn't justify to change them in a big modding mess).
And some day along SoW game life, one will hack the code... modders will find with the hack the freedom they allways hoped for.... and online play will die...
So if pay-to-play is the only way to escape this fate.... I'm all for it...

This thread about "multiple sorties" is so hijacked now that I barely recognize it. Even I strayed by asking about mods. :( What the hell mods have to do with multiple sorties is not something I'm even interersted in. If Oleg has a pathway for official mods for SOW I'll be interested in those. I'm not really interersted in having multiple installs and exe switchers. I'll assume sound mods screw things up similar to other mods porking an original install for online play purposes. Just means I'd have to decide: mods, or pure Oleg.
Now back to our program about multiple sorties. Someone please start a seperate thread about this modding issue, please.
thanks you,
Flyby out

99 Done!

Time to refuel and/or rearm...?

Configurable refit times could allow each Offline player or server, for all players on that server, to set refuel and rearm times anywhere between zero (instant refuel) to historical averages if known, or assumed if not known. Obviously there would be no upper limit to the configurable time if there is no data for this.

Is this Correct Thinking?

I think configurable refit times might run into a problem if, for example, a Spit returns and refuels while a 109 is still rtb to refit. The Spit would have an unnaturally quicker turn-around time because it already has the benefit of fighting over it's homeland whereas the Emile has to cross the channel first. How best to make ithistorically fair?
Flyby out

noo...Refit time as in how long you have to wait on the ground or carrier deck. Some players or servers may want instant refuel, some could tolerate the whole "realistic" wait time, others may want something in between as compromise. Extended missions or online wars could be designed around this.

I don't think historical accuracy and fairness are compatible, in this case.

As I understand, the RAF turned around fighters in under a quarter of an hour, but they used a different set of pilots for the second sortie, while the first group of pilots had breakfast, or lunch, or maybe a quick nap. This is why personal aircraft were rare, even later in the war. A pilot flying multiple sorties in a day was probably normal, but they wouldn't usually have been consecutive.

well whichever way this issue sorts itself out will be fine by me. I don't really know what implementation Oleg has planned, but I'll be cool with it. Lexx and Igo, thanks for your input. Let the battle begin! Well...someday anyway. ;)
Flyby out

The most important thing IMHO is having a reason to taxi to a refueling and rearming area, instead of the aircraft just disappearing on the runway. The time of the tournaround should be adjustable to suit the off-line player and On-line server.

that sounds reasonable, but remember that at some point you'll want to go pee (water the horse, take a whiz, drain the lizard, etc) so if you make the refit time too short you'll need a piddle-pack. :D
Flyby out

Just don't drink any beverages within 8 hours of mission start.

Bah I have to think of everything.

LOL!! does this mean piddle packs aren't modeled? :D
Flyby out

Well regarding On line focus or not, not paying atebntion to on line play is like having a cable company withoout HD. Yes most people won´t use it, but if you dont have it, you will never be able to compete.

Toaday even consoles ofer on line gaming and it is the reason they are making money.
Soon everything will be on line, Phones allready are, radios , TV will follow in the near future.. and you propose that an enterteinment developer can afford to ignore on line play? Ludircrous at best. specially if SoW series are intended to last for as long as Il-2...

Now regarding MODs, with out them the HL numbers would be close to 0...
On line wars work perfectlly, and the onlly serious one is doing fine, (I mean ADW).. every other war died becouse of the players not the cheating.. you don´t need moded cheats to "game the game"...

I think Oleg is doing the right thing making SOW an on line engine that of course can be run off line too. On line is the future, wether we like it or not.

I think we all know that the future of online whatever is secure. People want to be brought together for whatever (sinister) purposes. My purpose/dream is to ambush the unsuspecting troll flying along all fat, dumb and happy. I prefer to do it in a WW2 combat flight sim (but I've been enthralled by air modern combat sims too).
My whole issue in this thread has to do with (pretty much ***cough-soley-cough***) with discussing how multiple sorties might be played out in SoW-BoB. ;) For my personal perference online combat is a given. I do respect anyone who prefers offline play. In these hard economic times offline play may be what the budget calls for.
But we're all friends here. Right? So which one glides better after it runs out of fuel: the Emil, or the Spit_Mk1? :D Whoops! gotta go pee!
Flyby out!!

99:: mmm, I dunno.

Think about it...as long as the weekly or monthly cost is not much more than going to a movie, online play offers ALOT more entertainment time with others if people are out of work say.

There are successful pure offline games where online is not needed. There are successful pure online games where offline is not needed. I'd say offline takes more programming and/or openness to modding -- Lowengrin's independent dynamic campaign modding has saved FB for many of Oleg's offline play customers. Online requires the internet connection, and of course offers the potential of human player vs blue side player ( :eek: ).

S~ Lexx,
Just to say it, I preferred online flying. To me, offline flying has it's time and place, but there's nothing like going up against other breathers online. Can't recall too many bad experiences online; certainly nothing to make me want to give it up. Heck I was flying with the D13_TH while on dialup! Great bunch, btw. One day when I (finally) get a new system I will return to online aerial combat, You betcha! ;)
Flyby out