Where are the new maps?
 

I just noticed v4.12 doesn't have any new maps..
Isn't about time we started to see some maps added to the mix? I don't see any discussion on this.

As it stands...http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...EZ/IL2Maps.jpg

Mods' list of maps...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...Z/HSFXmaps.jpg

I believe that the Solomons maps were added with 4.12

But I agree that there are a lot of very good modded maps out there which really expand the game. Obviously, some are better than others, but to my untrained eye some of them look really good.

Perhaps TD could do like they did with sound mods and allow users to create and add their own "unofficial" maps.

A serious discussion on maps would be welcomed. I've been thinking about and doing some reading on how to make maps... if I get far enough along then I will make sure that my maps are intended for an official TD release.

Although I'm not certain on the particulars... a lot of MOD maps are semi-finished and some authors never seem to want to make them available for official patch releases. Some do.

4.12 didn't include any new maps but 4.11 included all of the Solomons maps which are IMHO some of the best work I've seen for the Pacific.

I'd also like to see some of the MOD maps renamed in their releases... in some cases they have reused the original map naming (i.e. Okinawa, Ardennes, etc.) and then changed the map massively. This affects single player as it screws up campaigns not meant for the MOD maps and it really messes with the online world where stock and non-stock players are together.

I'm thinking of making a China themed map. Perhaps starting with a dogfight map to cut my teeth on it. Anyone have resources that could help me with that? I'm trying to decide on an area... and then try and get photos of airbases and the like.

Solomons were already here.

All that is necessary is that somebody provide map done according to specifications and with 100% original content. We will gladly accept and include into the game any such map.

China's a bit tricky since the parts where combat occurred were mostly heavily populated and there aren't as many East Asian objects (or specifically Chinese objects) as there might be.

Additionally, IL2 limits you to two different ground textures and parts of China were much more diverse in their terrain. For example, you can't have a mountain/hill terrain texture, plus a tea plantation texture, plus a woods texture, plus a rice paddy texture, all of which you might encounter within a small area of Central China.

To make things even more interesting, many parts of China are prone to floods and farmers flood their rice paddies at certain times of the year. This means that the water textures for the spring map would be very different from those of the autumn or winter maps.

Possibly a map of part of Formosa/Taiwan would work, since some combat took place over it (Japanese invasion in U.S. Carrier raids in 1944). But, the problem there is that the PRC would make trouble for UbiSoft about anything relating to the the Chinese Nationalists, so our Chinese overlords get to veto that one.

A less controversial and equally useful map would be Hong Kong. It would be easier than it looks, since the population and development in 1941 wasn't nearly what it is today. It saw aerial action during the Japanese invasion of 1941, and suffered numerous Allied air raids during the Japanese occupation.

A map of (roughly) the area around Hankow and Yochow would provide
a way to depict the fighting between the US 14th. Air Force and the Japanese Army Air Force during the 1944/45 Ichi-Go campaign. This was the last successful ground campaign prosecuted by the Japanese in WW2, and a great place to put the upcoming P40N to use.

I think the best area for a map would be the regions of Hunan and Hubei, maybe between Wuhan and Changsha. It could be used both for battles early in the war (Battle of Wuhan) and for later operations (Battles of Changsha, Operation Ichi Go).

There's a modded map by agracier which covers the area around Hankow.

Any map of central China would need to be fairly small to allow for the factors I mentioned.

Speaking of maps, how about a method of 'jumping' from one map to another in a single mission format? If you're taking off from the Kuban to patrol over Crimea for instance, from 'England' to Normandy, or from 'Rabaul' to Guadalcanal it would be quite useful. Some way of linking the maps together (and they wouldn't have to be adjacent to each other) with way of assigning fuel burned + altitude gained/lost and time gone on the cockpit clock in a single mission would be very cool.

cheers

horseback

That could work.

I've read some basic tutorials on how to set up a map in IL-2. I'm not exactly sure where I get the game related tools to do it.

It sounds like a China map would be challenging... I can probably handle the technical if I can get some support on the history side of things because this theatre I have a bit of a blind spot in. I still think it'd be interesting and something not covered yet.

Hong Kong area would potentially be useful as well.

Kuban winter
 

If it came to the wishlist, I would say Kuban winter campaign map.


A China map should have a lot of potential for historical mission builders.

You've got Flying Tigers for one and the Nationalist forces were eventually flying B25s
and the industry moved just like in Russia, with Japanese bombers in pursuit.
Even after Japan surrendered the Russians just kept on moving in the north.
There's the Burma -China road.
I'm not absolutely sure, but B29s may have been based in China for a time.

Map building itself is still a mystery to me. I have looked it up, but never found out much at all.
That it could be accepted in the stock version, if it were 100% original, makes it even more interesting a subject. :)

I once talked with EJGr.Ost_Caspar about map making in Il-2. Maybe he can give you some good advice how to start such a project.

The China Air Task Force and the 14th AF were flying B-24s and I think later on B-29s against Japan. There was a LOT of guerrilla air combat in the CBI, it's been horribly neglected.

If someone is starting a new project, these are DT rules for Map Making (posted in SAS)Please any DT member confirm.







- map MUST NOT contain any mistakes, all roads and railroads MUST be passable
- rivers MUST have height of 0 (tarns are an exception)
- all bridges MUST be correctly placed and passable
- objects stitched together from other objects (franken objects) MUST NOT be present
- objects MUST be thematically correct (no churches from Slovakia in Africa)
- new 3D models MUST be in low-polygon standard with correct damage model. Summer AND winter textures MUST be included, even if map is a only summer one.
- new 3D models SHOULD be provided with 3DS Max source file and PSD/CDR textures
- new 3D models SHOULD be exported to msh (they may be exported by DT if creator does not have the tools to do so himself)
Only outputs from 3DS Max9 Maraz IL2 plugin version 0.6 OR Fatduck exporter script 2.52 are supported.
- 3D models provided in binary msh SHALL NOT be accepted.
- map MUST NOT use fototextures or anything under copyright.
- airfields MUST be fully functional without obstructions
- forests and trees MUST NOT intersect with roads or railroads
- FPS MUST be equal or higher as on Slovakia or Crimea
- map SHOULD be created by creator from start and MUST NOT be under any copyright
- creation of special objects as dams MUST be consulted with DT first
- map SHOULD be set in 1939-1945(46) on some WWII battlefield of interest

By the way, as there is a moddelling bible, it will be very usefull a similar guide to making a map. There are a lot of questions that I have regarding map making and how you solved them, especially in the Slovakia Map.
Who is the guy that can answer these questions?

Surprised by the display of familiarity of wartime Chinese geography. Refreshing.

I'd like to see a Hankow/Wuchang/Changsha scenario, but am a bit wary of it being the basis of a map in IL-2 since those cities were quite large and very heavily urbanized (by Chinese mid-20th century standards), though not so much for Wuchang, which was pretty much just a cross-river extension of Hankow. Could wreak havoc on frame rates.

Lol, no kidding.

The Curland Penninsula map is nearly riddled with mistakes, from missing bridges to parking nodes on the taxiways at some airfields. Still, it's one of the best maps in the game, and one of the few in the whole game that is truly at a 1:1 ratio.

Just remember that there's a massive amount of China and that most of the bits that were fought over were densely populated. That means either small maps if you want to include every village or the need to selectively "depopulate" the map if you want to cover a larger area.

Additionally, many China missions covered long distances, and IL2 doesn't do "strategic" maps very well.

Lots of action with the CAMCO and later the Chinese-American Composite Wing and the 14th Air Force. Add to that RAF and Commonwealth (RCAF, RIAF, RAAF, RNZAF) actions during the Japanese invasion of British territories in 1941-42 (Hong Kong and Burma).

Actually, this wasn't a Soviet invasions so much as the continuance (or rather, the end game) of the Chinese Civil War which led to victory by the Communists under Mao Zedong. There was a certain amount of aerial action during the post-WW2 conflict which doesn't get a whole lot of attention in the West. Sadly, this conflict probably officially off-limits for a number of reasons.

The 20th Air Force was briefly based in China and flew the first B-29 raids from Chinese bases. But, due to logistics they didn't fly too many raids from there before they transferred to the Marianas in 1945.[/QUOTE]

I'll definitely get in touch with him. Thanks!

Wondering if I might start really small first and then try something more ambitious after.

The Russian moves in the north that I referred to were the ones made for several days after Japan had formally surrendered.
I don't know what was behind that, if they were just on a roll or never were told it was over.

But it's a matter of pick your battles and map that region.
Very much what IL2 maps are now.
The original IL2 did come with a warning not to use the Berlin map online
because of the high number of buildings.
I know of one server that went down the moment the first bombs were dropped on Berlin.

We use Berlin regularly on Battlefields1. The capabilities of both servers and players has improved over the years so that many maps are now workable online. And... there are others that still aren't...

That will make Berlin a nice benchmark.
If it works okay online now, then that many buildings overall on a map is sure to be safe.

This might help:

KevinP Tutorial: http://www.gamefront.com/files/20333...utorial_v4_rar
Publication and Discussion: http://allaircraftsimulations.com/fo...p?f=70&t=14643

Map Editing Tools: http://ultrapack.il2war.com/index.php?topic=2630.0

Good going!
Artist

I agree. We had problems on the old server. Changed the server the Berlin map works flawlessly even with formations of AI bombers. Have FPS problems only those who use really old machines.

I just can't believe that no one has offered one that meets the specs after all of this time. Where are all you map makers?

No idea... I see a lot of WIP on SAS. Some of that stuff must get finished, not be under any other external copyrights, etc.

I'm really looking forward to that huge New Guinea map by the Team Pacific

I find that hard to believe, since there are so many excellent mapmakers on SAS and literally dozens of completed modded maps.

While I don't want to start an argument or waste TD members time, I'd be interested in their analysis of why certain modded maps don't make the grade. If nothing else, it would be instructive to new mapmakers as to what they need to do.

I'm also wondering if TD isn't being a bit sensitive over what constitutes copyright. At least in the U.S., you can claim that it is an original work of art if you modify a someone else's work in a significant fashion. For example, taking a copyrighted Google Earth image, cropping it, editing it to make it consistent with 1940s era terrain and otherwise manipulating the image in a photo editing program ought to be good enough to make it an "original work of art."

Sure, you're right of course, this is a sustainable position once you're in court - but this is not an option for TD. Having no lawyers, assets, and money for defending, it will never get there. Overcautiousness is a sheer necessity here.

Valid point. And, they might also be contractually bound to follow certain procedures per their agreement with 1C.

Part of it might be that none of those map makers have ever bothered to see if they might get their stuff in an official patch. Or how much work it would be to get one ready... perhaps a couple of quick changes and it's all good to go.

I think the copyright issue point has already been made but to reiterate.. an overabundance of caution is extremely important here.

Finally someone has said that out loud. Of course they don't care. Why would they? For all I can see, there's no thrill out there in being included in anything 'official' :)

Or they haven't considered it is my point as well.

There are a variety of reasons why... I'm hoping someone who maybe connects with these guys more regularly might point them in the direction.

Actually, I don't see much point in dragging maps that had been released as mods into DT's patches. What for? I'd rather see DT include new stuff in their patches, like the New Guinea map I had mentioned before.
If you want mod maps, you can install HSFX, for example, and simply enjoy them. Then you can add a dozen or so other maps (or re-textures of older ones) not originally included in a given mod pack of your choice. It's easy. Then you can use unlocked FMB to customize your favorite maps, re-populate them with objects and/or re-texture them. It's fun. Much more than compiling wish lists, pleading,arguing and waiting. Be free. Have fun. It's a game :)

That is a great idea, though I'm not sure that there are a lot of maps that would be usable in that way in the stock game. I wonder how difficult a feature like that would be to retrofit into the game? I doubt it would be a cakewalk.

Maps that just cover a limited area and don't "scroll" as you fly are the trade-off you make for having actual populated towns, trees and woods. It worked well when IL2 was a low-altitude, tactical "mud moving" sim, not so well now that there are player flyable strategic bombers planes.

I think that it would be a lot of work to allow jumps to new maps, especially if you have missions where planes are scattered across two or more maps. Online it would be a nightmare, especially if people on different maps couldn't interact with each other. Also, how do you handle sighting across two different maps? And, what happens when you have people fighting at the conjunction of four different maps!

About the only way it could possibly work is to rework the existing maps in the game so that they are all standardized "tiles" designed to allow smooth transition from one map to the next. Then, you'd have to rework the game engine so that it could keep track of everything happening on or above each tile. For online, you'd need to make it so that the server could handle dozens of combats over each tile!

I think it could be done with the computer power available these days, but it would be a whole new sim. I sure don't think that it would be fair to ask TD to do that.

I have a WIP map of the Kweilin-Changsha region of China on SAS.
TD has strict requirements for maps and that's why it's harder to do them for TD. Example is all rivers at zero altitude is very difficult to do in mountainous maps where elevation is significant from one side of the map to the other.

Also, not getting textures from Google earth (or other places) puts a damper on map building for TD.... how else can good decent real-life looking textures be made??

That's also just WRONG! Rivers flow downhill for a reason! Of course, TD does say that there can be exceptions for tarns and the like, so it makes sense that a river flowing through the mountains could be above zero altitude.

Is there any particular reason why rivers all have to be at zero altitude?

Satellite and aerial pictures released by various governments are inherently copyright free. They're just not as readily available as Google Earth images.

And, as I said in my earlier thread, arguably cropping, tiling, retinting and photoshopping an existing photograph turns it into an original work of art.

The game engine renders properly only water at zero altitude.
Even on high altitude lakes you can see that the shadows are wrong (for example Slovakia).

Here is something for you all to do during the summer. Make a list of best MOD maps and suggest them here. Imagine that only top 2 on the list will make it into official patch. So argue among yourselves why your favorite ones should be on top. Bear in mind that they should satisfy conditions posted in this thread before. Of course, some deviations are possible (I don't see a reason for winter version of objects on Pacific maps).

Ok Caspar.

Top of my List would be Maraz Central Med Map - the scope for Malta and North African theatre action from 1940 all the way to 1943 is too good an opportunity to miss; where else are we gonna use that lovely MkIII Wimpey? ;)

Second place would be a Cross Channel map. and I'm thinking GilB57s Western Front Map would be the most excellent choice - scope for the heavy bomber boys and fills a gap between the Normandy maps (D-Day) and NW Europe - lets face it, the stock Ardennes map, whilst a useful filler over the years is an undersized and ageing entity; the 1:1 scale of GilB57s lovely map really puts it in the shade.

Also would like a winter version of the Norway map; given the majority of anti-shipping action took part during the autumn and winter of 1944-45 it seems a shame we don't have the opportunity to skim between snow capped Nordic peaks as we dodge the Kreigsmarine flak gunners!

As much as I like to have new maps in the game, but maybe TD should first concentrate on adding new textures for the old maps. The textures of the Pacific maps are the worst in my opinion, some of them have completely wrong textures, like Chichi Jima or Okinawa.

New textures can make an enormous difference, just look at the retextures Cyberolas has done for the stock maps.

Map retextures can also be an opportunity to add winter versions of existing maps (Norway, Berlin, Kuban, etc.)

Glad to have you here CzechTexan. I've seen some of your stuff and it looks good!

Google Earth is of course copyrighted. We may be able to make use of government aerial photo archives that are in the public domain to help in making new textures. Some photoshop work to make them more than just a black and white overview could be used to make some great stuff.

Here's where it would be useful to have some teamwork. I know there are artists who are very good at making repeating textures. If we can combine their efforts with map makers then we can really get something going here.

The river thing is a pain. You can see why it doesn't work quite properly on maps like Slovakia and Burma... engine limitation and a usability issue when you're flying near such water. I'm wondering if TD would be amenable to exceptions in certain circumstances.

Massachusetts, where I live, provides its aerial photography for free for anyone to download. Not surprisingly, Google uses this imagery (that my state taxes helped pay for) for Maps and Earth. Doesn't stop Google from slapping their copyright on the imagery that they didn't produce or pay for. No slam on Google necessarily, I love Google Maps and Earth, I use them all the time for work. But, I think it's a bit of a stretch that they get to claim rights to my screengrab from their free viewer programs of imagery that they do not own or produce. F'n lawyers!

Cloyd

So, this means that we just need to find the materials that Google Maps has ripped off.

Paradoxically, a Google Search on "Copyright free Satellite Images" pays good dividends, at least if you're willing to dig. Look for images taken by government-owned satellites such as Landsat or IKONOS.

Here's one decent source that I found.

http://earthexplorer.usgs.gov/

Even better, this site lets you search images by year (good for getting older maps which show certain parts of the world before massive development) and even by month!

Here's another royalty free source, with open license:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/

And another:

http://landsatlook.usgs.gov/

There are probably others.

Two mods maps that really look like Stock maps are Donbass and BOM (Battle of Moscow) found at SAS1946.com

Donbass and Battle of Moscow both look fantastic. I think there are some custom objects there that need some looking into... I think AviaSkins has done stuff with Team Daidalos before. Anyone connect with them regularly?

I agree. If it's possible to get the new B.O.Moscow and Donbass maps with their textures into IL2 then I'd like to also see those textures replace the ancient stock textures. At least then all the east front maps would look similar.

Actually, the biggest eyesore, in my opinion, is the old city textures...I can live with the other fields textures. Stock Cities need to be replaced with B.O.Moscow and Donbass city textures. That is not a hard thing to do and they are actually very similar in layout.'

MIXX's Khalkin Gol and ZaPolare' (Murmansk) maps are also very good maps. I'm not sure if they meet requirements but they are much better than the stock maps of those regions. I have never made missions for the stock Khalking Gol map but I would love to use Mixx's map.

The right area of this map would be a very nice addition. I've seen a similar version in HSFX modded squad events. Perhaps a banned subject of conversation like the Channel map, sorry if that is the case.

http://www.history.army.mil/brochure...06-07(map).jpg


Also, I wish the Truk Lagoon (LS) map in HSFX would be added. That map is a great template for some very fun battles that don't involve flying 50 minutes to reach a target.

+1

Maps of most parts of North Africa are perfect for IL2, since they have relatively small cities, low population density between towns and lots of empty open spaces.

They're also somewhat "realistic" because if you fly south off the map, you end up over barren desert, and if you fly north off the map, you end up over trackless ocean.

The only problem is that even a small part of the map you've scanned would require a massive number of maps. Even a map of the coast from Alexandria to Tobruk would be a huge undertaking unless it was very narrow and just took in the terrain from coastal waters to the beginning of the escarpment. It would be more reasonable to have a map which covered the area from west of El Alamein to Alexandria, then another map from El Alamein to Tobruk, then another from Tobruk to Benghazi.

But, that said, Agracier has done a number of nice looking maps of the areas you're asking for, although I'm not sure if anyone has done maps of the areas I've mentioned.

Since CloD is dead, I don't see any reason for the ban on previously embargoed material. I'm assuming that the appearance of the Wellington, as well as the presence of "Middle Eastern" and Mediterranean objects in 4.13 is an indication that this is indeed the case.

Truk is a fun map and a historically quite useful one (as is Rabaul), but I'm not sure who originally developed them. There have been multiple people making improvements on the map over the years, which complicates things considerably.