P-51 Combat Tips and Tricks ( Dogfight Guide )
 

Been flying with the P-51 a lot lately and she's my favorite ride. VERY fast and the engine is VERY reliable. You can fly on full power settings ( even on WEP ) for a while without the coolant boiling

Just going to give some dog-fighting tips for budding p-51 flyers..its a good feeling seeing BF-109 fireballs flying across your canopy

1.) Stay fast! This aircraft easily reaches 300-350mph. Any slower than 180-200MPH your pretty much a "brick in the sky". You can easily outrun any plane "except" probably a jet from my experience

2.) Be gentle with her. You have to turn very gently with the p-51..she can't turn too tight like a 109 but you don't need to turn tight because you bleed off speed that way. The verticle is the best fight. If you absolutely need to turn with the P-51 in combat pull just enough on the stick until you hear the airframe rattling..also use combat flaps. But I would just advise you High-Yo-Yo onto your targets six if your chasing a bandit

2.) Use deflection shot! Unless your chasing a FW-190 or some other non-tight-turning plane...Don't worry too much about getting directly behind a bandit and shooting his 6, most of my kills in a p-51 come from deflection shot. Carefully time your deflection shots and make sure your fast..if you need to climb to a bandit make sure you have enough speed..if you don't stay at alt and gain speed.

3.) Use cloud cover! - If you have a bandit or even a gang of bandits chasing you, dive into the clouds and fly in the clouds a bit..also gain more speed. You will easily lose your pursuer(s) and even get the jump on him and end up on his six. Then you just take him down. The clouds keep you hidden and you can climb above..or dip below the clouds for a bit to see where your target is to set up



IF your Boom and Zooming with P-51 - I've had this plane reach 460mph close to 470mph coming out of a dive..the trick is to pull "very gently" on the stick, full flaps ( very quickly then raise flaps) and a little bit of elevator trim to come out of the dive. If you yank just slightly too hard on the stick the wings will break right off the P-51. A good sign to slow your speed down is when you hear the airframe rattling..that means it's close to breaking..so trim up and pull smoothly..Probably should cut the throttle as well. This is only in a dive..if your just flying straight in a P-51 at 450-470mph and you hear the rattling your fine..just trim and be very gentle with her.

An optional trick you can do to shake an enemy off if you have an enemy on you and your on the deck is to fly under bridges..I've literally been chased by bandits..flown under a bridge and he crashed trying to go under the bridge after me lol



P-51 against Fw-190
----------------------

Fw-190's are tricky..their fast, powerful guns..and even one or two shots from one will usually take out your controls or leak your fuel tank. A skilled FW-190 will be very high and very fast. He will try to pounce you. FW-190 has a ridiculous rate of roll which makes it tricky to shoot it down while your on his six.

If your about to get pounced ( B&Z ) by a faster a FW-190 there's a couple things you can do:

1.) If you have the Alt, just do a split-S..which is to go inverted and pull up 180 degrees..if the 190 doesn't zoom back up ( for example if he keeps diving or stays at alt, you can usually zoom up another 180degrees from your split-S and dive on his six.

2.)Another things you can do If your getting bounced, is to chop your throttle and high-g Barrel roll with a little bit of rudder...this should cause the B&Zer to overshoot you..now he should be zooming in front of you...now FIREWALL the throttle and if your fast enough you can chase him and shoot him while he's trying to zoom away. I've literally shot planes down like this. You can also do this with a P-47, but it's important to not bleed to much speed off in the barrel roll cause then you can't climb fast enough to get him in your sights


If an FW-190 tries to run from you. CHASE him...your faster than him and can turn with him

The P-51 and Fw-190 are two of the most powerful planes in the sky..especially at high alts. The trick is to remain fast! Tight-turning planes don't stand a chance even if their above you

If I find a Fw 190 high, I usually just firewall it and enter a gentle dive. The P-51's dive limit is higher, and it is faster over most altitudes, so you usually can get away by maintaining a near red line speed. If the Fw 190 follows, it will either break up or lose the altitude advantage, which means it's no longer a threat. If it doesn't follow, well, you're safe.

I also consider the P-51 the best prop driven fighter aircraft in game, in particular against the Japanese, where the somewhat limited firepower works a lot better than against the tougher German planes.

Been flying 109's since IL2 beta.
Ive never worried too much about mustangs. Their best advantage lies where it did in reality-sheer overwhelming numbers.

I'll second that. A single mustang attacking a single 190 is a pain in the ass, but otherwise my team happily chews up all P51s it encounters. We usually enjoy it because it's a big and relatively soft target that doesn't turn very hard. They are very seldomly able to outrun us. They cannot outdive us, especially not the D9. They are a pain in the ass against 190A versions above 6000m. But then we always have a Dora in our mix in order to be able to catch just about anything at higher alts. Another P51 weakness is it bleeds lots of energy while boom-and-zooming, and of course when it turns hard.

S!

Kind of speaks volumes about the quality of the combat you usually see - the P-51 can outrun all contemporary German prop fighters and outdive them as well. If you catch them in a dive and a D-9 can catch them at higher altitude, I don't think you've seen a properly flown one.

It's funny though that it would seem that many folks share that impression, and then get grumpy when a couple of well flown P-51's kick their butts repeatedly, unexpectedly. The P-51 is a very capable plane, which not many pilots fully exploit. It certainly has a far worse reputation with both its pilots and its opponents than it deserves.

You are hereby kindly invited by JG27 to visit us on grij dedicado server and kick our ignorant FW190 butts.

Time: monday and tuesday, starting around 1800 GMT.
Server info: close range friendly icons (1000m), map icons, speedbar, otherwise fullreal.

We are 2-4 guys.

He will not show up! I'm sure of that!;)

Thanks for the invitation, but I'm not interested. I also don't consider you ignorant, if you think that's what I do.

I told he's not coming! Hi hi hi, just talking! :rolleyes:

@ OP: One thing I'd add it TRIM. Learn how to use it and trim for different speeds and flight regimes.


I'd take some of that. If only my fighter skills were as goos as shown in the video I did back in 2007. Back then, I was flying 5 times a week, now I fly once a week - bombers only. :)

Very few people know how to fly a Pony. Above all, it takes discipline and getting used to the weak .50s and how to get the most out of them. In particular, deflection shooting. This is one reason why I never enjoyed flying Fw190s - just to easy to kill something. Tons of ammo and pull the trigger ahead of the target and let it fly through the wall of led.

Lately I find myself enjoying a Tempest a lot, its firepower meets my current flying skills nicely. :cool:



By far the best fun I had with Ponies online was vs. Japanese fighters. If you know how to fly it, no one can touch you. One feels like God when flying a Pony vs. those planes.

I wish to know... are you guys talking about the P-51D? Can the other variants do something considerably better or worse than the D? Obviously D variants can use noseart (customized, of course), so it's a good enough reason for me to choose it over the others.

Mustang III is the fastest of the bunch, and no LW prop plane can catch it. Downside is that, like all non bubble top versions, it only has two pairs of .50 cals. So you really have to work for your kills. Thus I always took the D model whenever it was available.

How to best describe a mustang in few words:

• You can run away from any opponent, provided you have the room for diving away. If the situation is unfavorable for you that is.
• "Glass" engine (do not do headons unless there is no way out).
• In order to get the most out of it you need to master trimming, fire discipline (firing only when the target is in ideal convergence) and prop pitch for various aspects of flight.
• Never ever take more than 50% fuel (that alone will give you over 2h of flight at max power and RPM). Preferably take 30-35%. Lots of fuel = lots of extra weight. And this thing has insane range.
• Correct propeller pitch settings will make it accelerate like no other plane in a dive. Literary, you can dive as if someone put an afterburner on you. Just be vary of the powerful elevators, not to lose a wing.
• Best used for hit and run tactics against experienced pilots. Against those of a lesser skill you can stay and play with for a while. :)
• K-14 "ace maker" gunsight is interesting to use, but don't get overly used to it.

In combat vs. LW planes, you can out turn a 109 or 190 easily - but you have only one chance. Then you loose all your energy. So use this as defensive maneuver to get out of harms way and keep your speed up as much as you can.

Versus Japanese planes it is simply a dream plane to fight with. There is nothing that will even come close to your speed if you conserve your energy. Those .50 cals are at least twice as effective here.


This is definitely not a plane for rookies and those that lack patience. You need to get rid of a lot of bad habits and change your approach if you wish to be good with this plane.

It's similar to the FW190, but less rewarding. A good energy figher must be able to kill in one pass. The Tempest seems more popular and much more succesful compared to the P51. IMO 4 20mm canons would have been better for the P51. When I fly red I prefer to boom and zoom in Spits, they're great at that!

Same here, tempest is my favorite res ride.
Otherwise 109 only. Takes a special type of masochist to keep flying the 190 lol!

Fw-190 does not kill, it annihilates in one pass. Mustang on other side, cripples.

Tempests weaponry is second only to 190. But if you do hit in the convergence sweet spot that 190 will turn to dust the same way as most 190 targets do. Not the case with P-51. You will at best deprive your target of a wing and more often set it on fire.

That is why victories with P-51 are so much more rewarding, to me at least.

I not so long ago scored 15 kills in one 45 minute online sortie. I don't think I ever came close to this in a 109. In fact, would doubt a 109 can do that. The 190 certainly is more than a plane for special type masochists, it's a killer. :) (Meaning: The 190 can exploit favourable circumstance like in my sortie to an extent the 109 can't, imho.)

I dislike the Tempest for lack of high altitude performance, otherwise it's a great plane, too. The decent firepower certainly helps, but somehow I find myself in trouble more often when flying a Tempest than when flying a P-51. Might be because the Tempest is more often opposed by late war opposition, while the P-51 sometimes has easy times against early 1944 opposition.

I find the 4x.50 sufficient against anything but 190ies, and 6 guns don't make much of a difference here. I tend to fly the B&C models more often than the D, and if the 25lb Mustang III is available, I'll pick it every time. Being able to disengage at will and getting out of a tight spot is very important to me, and no plane does that as well as the 25lb Mustang.

I've taken 6 mustangs in 20 minutes on spits v 109's back when I was flying with a squad. Pretty easy when you get em low.
It's all about knowing your machine and exploiting what it does best. Applies to every plane.

I've never understood how yall can fly the 190. Just a dreadful machine! In a 109 I fear no other plane, but in a 190 spits scare the piss out of me.

P-51 does "not" bleed off a lot of energy in BnZ. It's one of the best BnZ planes I've ever fought with. You can bounce a bandit at 350mph-450mph, and zoom up thousands of feet back above your target.

This! I've outran plenty of Fw-190's and BF-109's with no problem. P-51 is VERY fast..especially when properly trimmed

Don't know much about outdiving german planes..I never dive right in front of a bandit..especially with a Fw-190 on my tail cause just a couple of shots from it's guns and hurt you bad. I usually split-S..or try to initiate some kind of vertical rolling scissors....or chop throttle and let them pass me. They usually zoom back up though



Good post. Yea just today I reach about 460mph in a dive..and when i came out of the dive i was able to maintain a speed of about 480mph

Also, you don't have to always hit-and run or BnZ a bandit with P-51. It's really fast you can really make a pass on a bandit that is the same alt as you and if he turns you just zoom up and roll over on him. Basically a boom-and-zoom without the diving part

.50 cals don't do much when shooting a bandits six. Deflection shots usually take out bandits engine or set it on fire most of the time. It's like a rainfall of bullets and the LW plane fly right through it lol..getting bullets sprayed all over from head to tail



P-51 is definitely for skilled pilots..Fw-190's are too for that matter.

Spits are easy meet vs. 190s. Once you learn to appreciate speed that is. There is no running away when in a spitfire, with 190 and P-51 you can more often than not disengage if the situation is unfavorable.


Exactly what I am saying. My record with P-51 is 6 victories in one sortie, IIRC.


Seconded. Some of the best defensive maneuvers I learned from 190 drivers. :)

Just saw your p-51 mustang compilation video Thor. wow..the was beautiful. A work of art. Very nice flying

The pilot makes a bigger difference than the plane.

"Plane X is better than plane Y" is an error in thinking. These planes don't fly themselves and it's not what you meet online but who that really matters.

Next most important is the situation. Then comes the plane.

So many kills in so many minutes.... do you count the mudhens? Then stop. Mudhens don't count.

You can come and do this right next to my D9'44, and the pony will be second, especially after several passes. And for the vast majority of times you need several passes in the mustang, loosing lots of E with each pass. The poor one-pass-one-kill capability means most P51 drivers repeat their BnZ attack, and the poor power-to-weight ratio and relatively high wing loading means they bleed lots of E with each pass.

Pony drivers underestimating the D9's diving power are in for a big surprise. I regularly reach 870kph in the D9, the redline being 900kph. Here's a trick we often play on P51s: I'll let one of my A9-flying squadmates move away from the diving pony's 6 o'clock, say to the 5 or 7 o'clock, so the pony driver can see him, and see that the FW is not gaining on him...all while i creep up on his ass unseen and blast him to bits in the D9. Especially the initial dive acceleration is much poorer in the P51 compared to the A9 and D9, power-to-weight ratio being the issue.

Back when I was flying P-51 on a regular basis ( v4.08 ) I would always rate the planes in the following way: D9 > Tempest > P51. D9 to me, was by far the best plane in the game. I recon it still is. That is the only opponent I truly feared when flying Ponies.

The tactic you describe here is something I encountered lately all three times I tried flying a fighter. It seems all 190 pilots nowadays fly in pairs and do this very thing. One of the reasons I will pick up a Tempest over Mustang when flying online.


Thank you. :)

If you take a look at the performance of the 44'D-9 and P-51D and give the planes the same amount of fuel, you'll find that the P-51 has a very similar power loading and a lower wingloading than the Fw 190. It bleeds about the same energy as a Fw in a turn. It really depends on the altitude you're fighting at, the Fw's best altitudes being down low and between 4000 and 6000m, but between 1000m and 4000m, the P-51 is much better performing.
Weight with 500kg fuel: D-9: 4270, P-51D: 4420
maximum power output: D-9: 1750, P-51D: 1720
wing area: D-9: 18.6, P-51D: 21.4

But the main advantage, and the most important advantage to me, is the speed advantage the P-51D maintains at nearly all altitudes. It allows the pilot to engage and disengage at will. It helps to maintain high speeds after a dive, and thereafter, a better zoom climb. Not that a zoom climb with someone on your tail is a good idea, ever.

I've attached Il-2 compare data for a 44'D-9 and P-51D, both with 500kg fuel. Illustrates my points nicely (blue Fw 190, red P-51).

This is for the current version of the game? IIRC '44 D-9 was a better performer in previous versions...

I agree that P-51 holds speed like no other plane. Once you get it there, that is.


EDIT: Still, this coincides with my experience in dueling with 190s.

Yes, this is the current version.

The P51 and FW190 are fairly evenly matched when in good hands... which comes to the point - all pilots being the same, it's the plane that makes the difference.

I had a low, slow and twisting online DF with a P51B (or C), which went on for a minute or so. We were both taking pot shots, but he never really hurt me, but a few glancing shots of 4 cannons and 2 mg's were taking it's toll.
He eventually lost control and ... bought the farm.

:)

I agree.

Yea Fw-190 is the only plane I'm really worried about when flying a P-51 lol.

And relative pilot quality. By 1944, except for a steadily diminishing band of Experten, most Luftwaffe fighter pilots were kids fresh from training with very few flying hours or bomber pilots hastily retrained to fly fighters. I'd count the former as Rookie level AI and the latter as Average or maybe Veteran.

By contrast, while most USAAF pilots were relatively green, they had enough basic flight and fighter training to count as being Average quality, and many of them stayed alive long enough to become Veterans.

In real life the P-51 was an excellent aircraft, just like it is in game. When the P-51 was introduced in the first half of 1944, the Luftwaffes top fighters were 1.42 ata Fw 190A and none methanol Bf 109G, mostly equipped with gunpuds. This meant the P-51 had many performance advantages, in particular at high altitudes, where it could fly circles around the German opposition, but also at lower altitudes where it still had climb, dive and speed advantages. And, compared to previous US escort fighters, it manoeuvred well, being competitive with whatever the Luftwaffe had.

Early on, the bomber escorts rarely had a numerical advantage, often the Luftwaffe had it and the P-51 was still successful under these conditions.

However, the tactical situation needs to be taken into account and here it is important that the escort fighters often held the initiative, because the Luftwaffe fighters focussed on the bombers. That's far more important than any numerical odds and something the P-51 did benefit from.

To reduce the combat success of the aircraft to numbers and relative pilot skills, is very superficial, to say the least.

In fairness to the P-51 we're also forgetting one of its major strengths - range. The fact that the P-51 could escort bombers to and from targets deep in central Europe from bases in England or Southern Italy was unprecedented and the Germans had no comparable long-ranged fighter.

In the Pacific, while some Japanese fighters had better range than the Mustang, they didn't have the same armor.

My earlier point wasn't to dismiss the P-51 as a great fighter plane. It certainly was! But, the Luftwaffe of 1944 wasn't the Luftwaffe of 1940 or even 1942, which made it even easier for the VVS and the USAAF to gain air superiority over Germany.

Thor is by far one of the best pony drivers I have ever known along with Kling, who I believe has quit the game long time ago. I also have really enjoyed your video, cheers!;) I also believe p51 is one of the best in the game even though I don't know how realistically the FM of a real Stang is being portraited here. There has been a long history of debate on this subject on many forums and I don't want get into that here. But in my gut feeling, its FM probably is not on par with that of Accusim one or DCS one, being a game 10yrs + old. What is really lacking for Mustang in this game is its armement. 6 50's in this game is really a peashooter. As a matter of fact I don't c any difference between 4 50's and 6 50's or even between 6 50's and 4 30's. I have seen many WWII gun cams where 190's and 109s got shredded by 50's, but you don't c that much here in the game.

For those veteran pony drivers in this game, would someone be kind enough to disclose a bit tricks on how to properly trim this aircraft? Is it as long as the ball is center then you are perfectly trimmed? Also some tips on how to use Pro Pitch. I know someone will tell me there are Kling's videos, but those are 5yrs old now and the game has been patched so many time since. Are those tips still valid?

No, no, no it isn't.

Thanks for the kind words. I did enjoy making that video a lot.

6x50s are more than enough if you know how to discipline yourself and fire at the right distance / set convergence. I think I demonstrated that very nicely in my video. And that was even before we got more API rounds in the belt. :)

Few tips, as requested:

• When pulling deflection shots, add a little more deflection than you think is needed - .50 are a bit slower, especially if you are used to german MGs.
• Trim the nose down, I personally used 14 clicks (on keyboard) after resetting to zero first. I flew with this setting all the time. This alone will make it a much more stable firing platform.
• Trim the rudder for different speeds, in particular for level flight and when diving. For me, this varied from 2 clicks when doing +800 km/h to 8-10 clicks for level flight. Do it even when zoom climbing.
• Fly with closed radiator and do not use WEP (over 100% power) below 3000m as it serves no purpose. *
• Learn to use your gunsight. My ideal convergence (in the video) was 200m.
• Some people recommend adjusting axes for elevators in order not to break the wings so easily if you are not careful. Both Kling and I used 100 on all axes for faster response when firing.

* I didn't even took it to skies with this new overheating FM. Needs checking.

Looking back now few years later, I came to conclusion that my perfectionism and diligence, especially with trimming for every speed and maneuver helped a lot with achieving those victories in a Mustang. I did have evenings when nothing seemed to work and I got damaged or shot down by insanely lucky maneuvers or as result of my stupid mistakes. But those were fewer than what I experienced and showed in the video. :rolleyes:

As far as Mustang being an excellent fighter - you really need to clean up your mind of all the stuff you heard / saw at History channel. For escort duties and long ranges, where you need the speed and do not wish to lose time by dogfighting P-51 was and still is an ideal plane. You will soon learn to appreciate the possibility of disengaging when you are outnumbered. And extending away to gain altitude for another strike.


EDIT: Superseded by post #42.

Engine Management GUIDE
 

Since the original link is long dead now, I am copying this over from BFs forums.

^^
I used 90-95 PP on the deck.

Only from being heavy on the stick and likely diving farther than they should.

A good attack for P-51 is yoyo or a rolling lag attack that lets you stay behind the target while getting occasional deflection shots. Line your wings up right and the near flat X spread will work for you.

There's an exercise you can try, it does apply to combat vs slower planes and slower pilots in faster planes. Fly in a tilted circle pattern, get the tilt up steep and let the circle get as big as it needs to be to keep speed loss down. You should reach amazing speeds along the bottom and get a feel for how much stick you can pull without creating excess drag. Up along the top, make sure you have speed to dodge shots and note how fast the nose can come around between maneuver speed and gravity assist.
The circle should get real big in a P-51. In tactic it's a matter of keeping a pursuer unable to follow and shoot at the same time. If he tries, you spiral up over him and pwn, pwn, pwn. If he runs, you run him down.
So he will keep trying to follow inside your circle and watch the timing to keep his nose able to cover him. And at the top of your circle when he is trailing up on his, spiral up just long enough for him to either circle at near stall below you or start on his way down and you have him.

You do the exercise while watching gauges and lower windshield. Make sure to keep the ball centered. Wide enough flat turn and you should be able to maintain 250mph and better. Add the vertical and it gets better.

MaxGunz, why don't you record a track with this exercise and post it here? I would be very curious to see this exercise performed by yourself!

The challenge is on.. :cool:

Actually I think MaxG is right here...

If the modelling is correct in DCS, I've been doing some P51-vs-P51 DFs and the AI here is a sheit to try and shoot down. He's doing exactly what MaxG is describing, and I'm forced to fly like this to keep up.. getting only occasional hits.. before my engine blows (I must still read the EM manual :-P ).

i agree but i still have to say i do not exactly "FEAR" 6 50s in a fw190

sure ive been killed plenty of times by them but thats usually a luckshot to the pilot or controls, rarely have i ever lost a wing (dont remember that in the last year honestly), and usually it takes a nice long burst to kill with the 50s, while a single good deflection shot will at best explode to 50cal, and at worst shut off his engine (most often its either a wing lost or black smoke/fire from engine).

now 4 20s are a HUGE threat in anything you flyy be it a fw190 or a b17, that loadout just obliterates anything with a good deflection shot and bombers with a good 1 second burst to a vulnereable spot (or just dewings it)



and as for the p51 i think its a greatly misunderstood plane

most people who fly them casually are just plain terrible, as in riupping wings off at high speed, stalling at low, and trying to outturn a zero ect

the better pilots are more then a fight and often times i end up with a damaged plane heading home. still on most online servers these pilots camp altitude and are more of a nuissance that either bnz (easily countered when hes at 700+) or try to get you when you climb to attack him (countered by flying far enough he does not see you climbing or avoiding high altitude all together). they rarely kill you if you know what you are doing but still removing a good p51 pilot from the skys is a very tough job, as he can almost always run away from you.

in good hands the p51 is downright a very hard plane to kill, then again same can be said of anything which they just will not let you get anywhere near them without fertilizing the landscape with your wreckage

^^ Good post.

The biggest problem with .50s is to learn how to use them most effectively. What would undoubtedly make them more effective is if we had an option to set individual convergence (like in CloD). That would spread them out and more easily hurt anyone on the receiving end.

This is where I think, P-47 with its 8x.50 cals has an advantage. By pressing just your guns trigger you will fire only 2 pairs, to fire the other two you need to press your cannons trigger. Logic implies that different convergence for guns and cannons gives you different settings for each 2 pairs of .50. I need to test this in the game, but I am pretty sure this is the case.

Back to P-51. In order to maximize their efficiency you really need to fire in the ideal convergence range (as I demonstrated in the video). Best way of teaching yourself that is by just loading up QMB and trying to strafe soft targets on the ground. Soon you will learn not to fire too soon or too late.


Done a few sorties online lately and IIRC there was an P-51 FM change in one of the patches by TD? I had to change the way I fly to get the most out of the plane. Here is what I would recommend for 4.11.1, for COMBAT operations:

• Keep the radiator on AUTO, no need to touch it at all.
• Trim for +500 km/h IAS: RESET then apply 8 clicks of right rudder and 14 clicks of nose down elevators.
• Keep an eye on your manifold pressure, about 55" is just what is needed for COMBAT operations below 4000m. Above that you will need 100% power or more to maintain 55", especially in the range where the blower switches to high.
• Propeller pitch below 4000m is best set on 90-95. For steep climbing when speed drops below 400 km/h IAS use 100 PP.
• The same procedure goes if you're diving on someone or running away. Use 95-100 PP for the initial part of the dive while you reach 500 km/h IAS - then drop to 60-70 PP and observe Mustangs insane acceleration that no piston powered plane can match (apart from Dora if you started with same E levels).
• If running away / chasing a fast contact (e.g. Ar-234), after you level out at about +800 km/h IAS remove 4 clicks of rudder (for total 4 clicks of right rudder) to keep the ball centered. Use 70-80 PP to maintain E and speed.
• At +650 km/h IAS be very careful not to lose wings. Especially if using 100 across the whole range of your controller.

With the above combat settings you can easily keep the plane above 500 km/h IAS at all times. Cruise settings of 50" and 2700 RPM (~ 80 Power / 80 PP) will get you far whilst saving fuel. When you're done perfecting in the D model, grab Mustang III. :)



EDIT: And always remember that 50% fuel is sufficient for 2h flight on full power. Never ever take more than 20-30%. Save fuel by using cruise settings. Drop tanks are just for show. With 30% you only need to check your fuel tank behind your left shoulder (in reality IIRC this one was drained first as it changed P-51s CoG drastically, perhaps another thing for TD to fix...).

Is that video of Thor's up on youtube? I am not a member of M4T. Always fun to watch tracks of our glory days.

I remember that Ultima Latet was about the best Mustang pilot online, he could just about kick anyone's ass by managing his energy very well mine included. I gave him fits while flying a D-9 though and he just brought up how the d9 was better than it should be, but every RED pilot says that.

The boys in Mustangs on WarClouds used to do very well with them, but that was because they flew as a team in numbers like they should have and they flew very safely with very little dogfighting, whenever I got any of them alone whether I was in a 190A,D or 109 they usually came up the loser because they grew dependent on team tactics and maybe did not spend the time lone-wolfing it like I always did.

In 2008 for an experiment I purposely flew on Spits vs. 109s every day for a month, as they used to reset their stats every month, just to see how good a record I could rack up. I flew mostly the FW190, maybe 20% in a 109 and some in allied aircraft including a sorty in a p51d where I got two kills and got back home. I got by far the best record in the stats that month for a fighter pilot, flying a large number of missions vs. Late allied aircraft, P51,p47 and of course Spits. Warbirds of Prey's solution was to delete the fw190 aircraft I had been flying from their maps for the next month.

In the end I remember the high-flying Mustangs being the most trouble for the FW190 because they were the fastest and best diving just as has been pointed out in this thread.

And as Chuck Yeager pointed out in his book, the pilot with the most experience will always come out ahead no matter what he is flying. Which always seemed to hold true. I think most of the best pilots in WWII or in IL2 are those that fly with their heads and have the best tactics and experience and know their aircraft.

If the starter of this thread, Ultima and Thor did better than most others in their Mustangs I am sure it is more what they have upstairs than whatever virtual cockpit they are in.

I only remember =AFJ=GoodKnight and his "SIX-FIFTIES" video. Never flown with him, just Kling on a couple occasions. I rarely flew with a wingman, and did just fine solo. Although having one helps a lot, especially since from my experience every Fw driver nowadays has a wingman lol.

The video is only available from M4T. I didn't want to upload it on YT as back then the quality was poor and it would have been muted / deprived of one channel soon after upload.

However, seeing the interest in the video has again risen you can now download it off my squadrons FTP: DOWNLOAD LINK

as for shooting at convergeance its not often so easy, as ur often too far or too close to the target

also what do u 51 pros use for convergeance?

i tend to usee 200m for every plane as it s a balanced number wheer both wing guns work and centerline are quite good (+ i rarely shoot at anything past 300m)

i used to have 100 so as to get easy point blank shots but all it does is limit me to close up ONLY.....sortof bad if for some reason you need to snipe at range...

I use 200/220m guns/cannons. 300/330m when I am going strafing.

A note when using K-14: its default range is 150m, and the increments in distance you can input are in 25m.

I'm using 200, too. I tended to use less, but nowadays I fire at longer distances then I used to.

Got another tip for flying the P-51 more successfully: Stay away from exploding opponents!

Second paragraph here:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-18march44.jpg

I always use 150m, which essentially gives me 300m effective firing range.

I'm not going to fire at larger distances.. unless I'm in an IL2 or similar then ranges are set to 400 (MGs) and 300 (cannons)

Long time ago, must have been 2008, me and my friend tried P-51s on WarClouds, in an attempt to survive as long as possible.

Not counting those hit enemies that landed, I had a pretty good tally of 57 when I finally died. Could have survived longer but in the end was killed by the usual thing: greed. 2 minutes of mission time left I dived to deck to save a friendly only to end up below 5 or 6 Doras from a Czech squad and ended up killed in the cockpit by Werner. :grin:

Needed hell of a patience to get that far, but I believe the relatively weak firepower that made one pass kills difficult was less restrictive than the ability to outrun every enemy plane was helpful.

Thor, thanks for all the tips. Most of what you said is absolutely rite. I have tested these settings. Especially the radiator part. Just leave it on Auto, no need to play with it. My PP settings are a little different from yours. You can test mine to see if it's better.
1. level flight, >300 90%PP, >400 80%
2. Dive, initially 90% until I get to >400, reduce it 80% and above 600 down to 50%.
3. Climb, shallow at 90%, steep <300 100%
I set PP as bands on my throttle slider. Actually, anything lower than 50% PP is useless in this sim, so my lowest setting is 50%.

I have learned the lesson not to bang my throttle against the wall. It was cuz my throttle malfunctioned and I couldn't get to 110% that night, LOL. I mainly fly offline campagin. The problem is when you start off as a low rank flight officer, you don't get the right to change fuel load. At 100%, Stang is just a pig to fly. Later, I cheated by starting off as a major and set my starting fuel load at 25% and bring 2 drop tanks if it's a long patrol/flight. From my experience, convergence at 200 is better than 140 as described by Kling. For in-game 50cal, you need longer duration for your bursts. If the convergence 2 short, then you get 2 little time for your post shot manuver and often times end up colliding with the enemy's wreckage.

With regards to the aft fuesalage tank and COG issue, what Thor said is absolutely right for real Stang. If you take 2 identical p-51D's, one loaded with 25gal in each wing and the other 50gal in the fuesalage tank. The one with wing tank loaded will have very different and better performance curve than the fuesalage tank loaded one even though their weights r exactly the same. IL-2 as a game just took a simplified approch; it doesn't distinguish between wing tanks and fuesalage tank. I wonder, for those who have A2A P-51 or DCS P-51, if they can feel any difference.

You are welcome. Glad to see it works for you as well. Apart from 50 PP what you posted is almost the same as what I use. Now that you mention it, lowering to 50 PP in a dive when you cross the 550-600 km/h IAS mark might just give you that extra needed acceleration. I didn't test the new 4.11.1 Pony as much as I want to yet.

I might add another tip on the P51 when BnZ'ing a FW.

What I do when attacked by a P51 is start a slow turn, tightening as he gets closer and at the moment he tries to line up a deflection shot, roll 90 pull down then roll another 180 a second later.
This move effectively puts him off target, forcing a flypast where he then often pulls up - he has no choice really.. or he'll be swiss cheese.
I'm then am applying flaps to lineup a quick passing shot.... most times there are no hits, but it's off putting to find your targets tracers whizzing by.
It's a great FW defensive tactic which I sort of worked out and applied a few times online with great success.. The P51 attackers then must have been experienced pilots, as they buggered off after 3 attempts

So when in a P51 be aware that you can be nailed on the flypass by a FW. ;)

Hey Jtd. Are these charts from 4.11 or 4.10? I remember seeing a similar set posted by someone back in 2007 in 4.07. Those charts were vastly different from yours with P-51 significantly inferior to D9. Did you use Il-2 compare to graph the charts? Just curious.

Keep us posted on your new findings. I am eager to learn. One more quick thing. Once you set rudder trim(say 8 clicks) and after a few hard manuvers you are still at roughly the same speed, do you adjust it again? I often times find after a few turns the ball will go off center even though my speed doesn't change much. I just have this feeling the ball's movement is a bit wacky.

These charts are for the 4.11.1 flight models. The D-9'44 has gotten a realistic performance, and the P-51 chart shows performance with 500kg of fuel, which probably wasn't the case in the charts you've seen before. But yes, the picture is quite different from what it was in 4.07.

p.s.: Small corrections on the figures posted by me: max. power for the D-9 is 1900 hp, wing area 18.3.

Will do. I usually do not touch trim unless I am diving. 8 clicks is ideal for ~450-500 km/h IAS and you should maintain this speed/setting throughout your combat maneuvers. But then again, if you are feeling extra diligent, adding 4 more clicks right to keep the ball centered should do it. I only touch rudder trim when diving.

From Bud Anderson's "He Was Someone Who Was Trying to Kill Me, Is All"

"He is falling away now, and I flop the nose over and go after him hard. We are very high by this time, six miles and then some, and falling very, very fast. The Messerschmitt had a head start, plummeting out of my range, but I'm closing up quickly. Then he flattens out and comes around hard to the left and starts climbing again, as if he wants to come at me head on. Suddenly we're right back where we started.

A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat."

How much is 500kg of fuel in terms of %? 25%? Just curious. 1900hp is with the boost right?

Are you saying that the FM does not model fuel usage properly - Come to think of it, it doesn't.. otherwise we'll have people stalling out of the sky second to none :)

500 kg fuel is 100% for the Fw 190D-9 and about 70% for the P-51, which gives them similar endurance. 1900hp is indeed with boost.

Can you provide graphs with lets say 30% fuel in the Mustang and the same equivalent for 190 Dora? Something that would depict a typical online scenario (my presumption here is based on your comment that it gives them the same endurance, and that 30% fuel in Dora would be enough - it has been even longer when I last time took one up to virtual skies and I am away from my PC right now to test if it would).

Correct. If it even models CoG shift / change based on the fuel load, it is very primitive. That is the info I have. In reality, Mustangs never operated in combat with center fuel tank full - that one was drained first as it seriously impacted its CoG and performance. We have it draining last in the game. :)

Speaking of, I'd love to have the ability to manually switch between different tanks during flight. Especially when flying bombers like I do nowadays (i.e. B-25 is notorious for losing fuel rapidly if you get a ruptured tank).

Actually, there have been multiple posts and comments on various forums about this subject. You can go search ubi forum for instance or even google search. Even the game designer admitted that IL-2, being a 10yr old game, took a very primitive approach towards fuel management modeling. In the case of P-51, the game only models one big fuel tank; it does not distinguish between wing tanks and fuelsalage tank. As you fly and fuel drains, all the game does is subtract overall weight and prolly do a bit parallel shifting to aircraft's performance curves. But the matter of fact is that's far from accurate for a real life mustang. As I said before, two exactly same mustangs, one with 50gal in fuelsalage tank and another with 25gal each in wing tanks. Although they weigh the same their performances are vast different. But based on this particular game's modeling logics, their in-game performance will be exactly the same. If you own A2A Accu-sim p-51, which is a much more accurate portrait of real life pony than IL-2, you can do the test (just make sure you load more than 20gal in fuesalage tank; anything more than 20 will shift COG significantly). I believe DCS P-51 (FM is very similar to A2A one) can do the same although I am not 100% sure. Back in WWII, the standard procedure for P-51s on long range escort missions was to drain fuelsalage tank first, then drop tanks and wing tanks last. By the time they crossed the channel into France, their fuelsalage tank will be way below 20gal or even empty. And if they are engaged by LW at this moment onwards, they can simply dump the drop tanks and leave a clean and very manuverable plane to dogfight with enemy.

That's good to know. I would imagine at 30% the curve would prolly shift out a little further. I rarely load more than 30% fuel if I have the option to choose fuel load. I am pretty sure 25% loaded Pony can fly as long as a bf109. To be on the safe side, you can load 30% fuel then bring 2 drop tanks.:cool:

Yeah, I have DCS+P51, and am trying it out now. It looks like DCS is taking pointers from A2A, and the manual's much the same.
What I can say is that DCS is very good and IL2 good (especially for 10+yrs).
I'm a bit skeptical about the DCS P51 stall characteristics, but maybe I'm wrong as I don't own or fly a real one. :grin:

I've seen Pierre Clostermann quoted as having fought over Europe in a P-51 on the way to his escort stage rendezvous. But of course the center tank wasn't _full_ by the time the engine warmed up, in hard turns he was experiencing control reversal due to CoG.

The IL2 I have has them all drain together, all the same %.

Must be something new then, since in v4.09 (last time I checked) you first drained the two next to your legs, and only when they were dry the one behind your shoulder started to go.

Will double check next time when I find an opportunity to take it to skies.

Not new since 2007, there has only ever been 1 variable for fuel level, all tanks are the same. Oleg was clear about that every time P-51 CoG issue was raised back when he did post on the forums.

At no time has weight distribution been part of the IL2 3D model. CoG is *fixed* and does not vary.

We didn't understand each other. :)

I am fully aware of the fixed CoG and single tank. But if you keep track of your fuel levels throughout the flight, you will notice that the center tank drains "last".

If I go with 50% fuel (250 kg) for the D-9 and 30% fuel (205 kg) for the P-51, giving both a similar range and endurance at typical dogfight server loadouts, the relative performance is still about as shown in the other chart, only that climb rate is about 20m/s at sea level for both of them.

That's just eye candy! Incorrect but doesn't matter.... :razz:

Exactly why I mentioned it! Shouldn't be hard to switch around, to get at least the visual representation right IMO. :)

I'd rather the CoG got updated in-game if effort is spent.

Is the DCS stall characteristics better or worse than that of IL-2? Just curious, cuz I don't own one.

You mean the current in-game CoG is inaccurate? But I thought CoG was not modelled.

When I load up 100% fuel for P-51 and fly for an hour, none of the fuel gauges ever move a tick as if my fuel level never goes down. Then I searched forum. Some people said between 100% to 75%, a full tank will be shown. Is that correct?

P51- It's too mild for my liking.. you really have to be dumb to put it into a spin.
When you stall, centralising controls, it literally recovers by itself.. for a HP WW2 aircraft this doesn't seem right.There's a big margin of shaking before it finally stalls.. fluttering away like crazy. If you're gentle with it it flies like a dream and is fast. In DCS you really have to fly it fast to get the best out of it.
The AI is impossible, but I hear it uses the same FM as the user ... and it doesn't make unforced errors. ;). It's a real challenge to even get near it - you learn fast.

Maybe my stick setup is not right (I'm not sure where to set it up yet).
Still working on it.

Man, it sounds like my plane. Too bad DCS p-51 is just a one-plane show. If it had been something with a decent campagin with other non-flyable WWII planes, I would not have hesitated to buy it. I really wish they set up a differnt world (call it DCS WWII world or something) for WWII planes instead of stuffing it in modern era.

Put it to you this way..
I (and many others) have put 10 years into IL2.. with DCS I feel like a noob... having to learn to fly sims all again.

- You have to know all your dials, bells and switches.
- You have to know your engine (you'll blow the engine anywhere between startup.. and 10 minutes). EM is crucial here, especially in a DF.
- and of course how to fly the thing to it's advantage

This P51 has little quirks of maneuvering - it not a matter of pointing the nose and shoot at the target as in IL2.. everytime you turn, roll etc.. RL secondary forces are real here and your nose bobs all over the sky. I don't have rudders or a decent input system yet, so cannot control these forces... but its a plane that feels loose in the sky - you have to let it fly itself.

I'll make a vid.

I fully understand u. I used to play Janes WWII for many years. Man, I felt like a king in that game. But the first time I played Il-2, I felt noobie, too. A lot of curses and swears before I finally got a little handle on the game. These sim games all have steep learning curves and I believe that's the fun part of it. Speaking of rudder, I don't have one either. I use twist rudder on my old x52pro occasionally. That thing is pretty useless. Just wonder if rudder pedals can significantly make life easier flying? Anyone can shed light on that? Thor, I am pretty sure you have one, just judging from the way you control your aircraft.

Also, a quick challenge for everybody. Anybody can beat ace AI bf-109G6+(any variant higher than G6) with P-51? I can handle FW190's (except D9) ok cuz they are bad at high altitude, but 109 seem to be able to follow you anywhere from sea lvl to 9000m. You can't outturn, outclimb. The only way seems to run ahead and then turn back to do headons.

The whole 'MUSTANG' video features an era when I used nothing but MS FF2 and its FOV for situational awareness. Twist rudder control FTW hehe. Nowadays I do use rudder pedals (SIMPED F16 USB) in combination with TiR 5.

I do have to comment on that - with TiR it is actually harder to spot contacts at longer range. Or it just might be be my age and leisure since I am flying bombers and lack the aggressiveness of the old days when I was flying fighters exclusively... Go figure.

IMO the trick lies in trimming her.

Tell me if this link doesn't work..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/emv0mqfagqjn9r5/DCSP51.f4v (38 Mb)

Someone made a German AI in a P51. This is an a/c padlock from the AI POV
One gets a fair idea of the scenery detail, even with this movie where the resolution has been reduced about 2.5x from the original.

For pandacat:
 

I finally nailed one (1/2 speed vid)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/029s9g7umm...CS_P51Wide.f4v (25MB)

Nice thing with the recording is that even the sounds slow down, so you're hearing gunfire and other sounds at 1/2 speed as well.

Yes, it is modeled as a fixed point where in reality for some planes it moves with fuel loading. With the Mustang it has been as at least 2 different points since it was introduced.

We had that in 4.01 and 4.02. The ZOO was extra noisy for months. Remember?

Sure, but in DCS it is a LOT different, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Against fewer and fewer Experten accompanied by more and more complete rookies. Kind of like the long run version of the Battle of Britain with different teams.
Funny how the shoe fits the other foot, isn't it? It went like that for the U-boats too. First it was Happy Times then it was not so happy. The whole German war machine learned that song. Getting outnumbered in the end is part of the process of starting more trouble than you can handle. It is the same for big criminals as small ones.

The trouble began when the ones in control believed their own BS. And yet we have people today still believing the same basic line. They wave their flags, they talk bad and they don't acknowledge the bill from the last wars, that is all because some people are lazy or stealing, not because of any war since war is supposed to be GOOD for the economy. Well, if you're a banker in a nice safe place, it's good for yours!

Great thread guys. I haven't flown the strange in some time so I'm paying attention. I'm usually in my Jug if I can be. A couple things here.....first..dang I haven't heard Goodknights name in forever. I flew with and against him. Great pilot if you could get past his arrogance. Next...sweet spot on the 50s now is 200 to 250 mtrs. Thor...in the jug with 8 50s you can indeed set different convergence ranges for each pair of guns. It makes it nice to have a spread for deflection shooting. It's nice with the new belting but would be better if we could set a realistic belting of 4 APIs and 1 APIT. The overall power rating would e much nicer especially against Japanese planes. The API rounds have a much better incendiary effect inside 250 meters. Oh yeah. Something else I learned. With IL2s hit boxes...if u shoot short squirts with the trigger you get better progressive hit damage to the various hit boxes of each ac.