the stuff dreams are made of!!!
 

Watch this and tell me if you are not dreaming about something like this? :)

http://schreinerschmid-web.homepage....e.de/c190a.wmv


Now let's come back to earth and look at this fighterstick replica which is a part of this cockpit. I found it on simware

http://www.simw.com/index.cfm?fuseac...tails&pid=2014

and some more pictures on the manufacturer's website

http://www.schreinerschmid.com/11501...ession*id*val*

This looks very similar to the stick proposed by the Tarmac group ( there is another thread about this stick on this website).

Now here is a question and I hope someone from the Tarmac group will give us the answer:

What is the difference between the Tarmac KG13 and this model (besides the price :rolleyes:)?

On a personal note, I tried to contact the Tarmac group twice to get some information about how to order their stuff and get it to North America. Once I got one initial email and then nothing and the next time I never got any answer. Makes you wonder how they will handle any service problem later on. It is a lot of money to pay and you would like to be sure that you are investing in good quality and good service. Would be glad to hear about other people's comments about dealing with the Tarmac group!

Otherwise I will have to continue to save up my money until I will be able to pay for something like this: http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/offboard.htm

or perhaps get myself the cockpit you saw on this video???:):):)

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: just kidding


Cheers,

Eckhart

Where's the famous "bar"?

right down the mess hall...lol

No seriously you have to ask the manufacturer but honestly I could do without it....:-P

Cheers,

Eckhart

That video... what's the sim that it's flying on? FSX?

But yes, me wants one, NOW! Off into the dream land :D

I guess the FM is from Shockwave using Microsoft FlightSimulator as flightsim.

yeah me too I would luv to fly around in this cockpit...with the 3D motion simulator included....ah well...dreamland;)

If my math is correct, the tarmac base and stick comes to about $1300.00 US dollars and the Simware comes to about $714.00? I have no idea what shipping would be?

To me, looking at the pics, the two sticks look exactly the same. The $600 difference must be in the quality of the base? Appearance wise the Tarmac base looks as though it is of better quality. But is it $600 dollars better? It is possible I guess that Looks can be deceiving?

Gosh, its hard to want to fork over that kinda cash based on looking at pictures. (is hard no matter what) Bolox can testify to the Tarmac quality, but it might be imposible to find someone who has tried them both, who can say if the Tarmac is that much if any better than the Simware stick.

The simware sight does have a more secure feeling about it than the Tarmac sight, but Bolox says they are A ok.

nice setup in the german video, thx for posting it eckhart

but in il2 you'd have to fly in the no cockpit view, and change the frame structure at the top of his aircraft simulator to represent the correct cockpit skeleton so you dont fly a spitfire aircraft with a 190 cockpit structure (instrument pannel wouldnt matter much, having generic ones for all aircraft models would work fine)

what display is he using in the background, looks like a standard projector with a flat screen ?

add a curved screen for the projector and track-ir, it'be an amazing experience !

whats the cost on his cockpit's (and does that include all gauges and software to control/interface them in fsX ?), the stick is expensive but less then other high end replicas from other manufacturers (like the spitfire stick and throttle for ex)

Wow! thanks for the links Eckhart.

looks really nice and i'm really pleased that a 'major' distributor is stocking this kind of stuff- simware have always been very good on my orders. good times ahead for us controller freaks:-P

been looking at the specs of the stick and the one on sale at simware is potentiometer equipped version- hall sensor version is available according to maunfacturers website but don't have a price for it. that would help explain some of the price difference.

the other difference is i presume, on the basis of no info to the contrary, that this stick has a sprung centre type movement like a 'traditional' joystick unlike tarmac's 'no return to centre' system. dampers are more expensive than springs.

to my limited r/l flying experience the tarmac sticks resistance creates a good impression of inertia in r/l controls and feels quite similar to glider flight.
subjective opinion;)

if i didn't already have a tarmac stick i would seriously be considering this- the cheaper price and dealing with an established distributor are definite plus points.

competition and choice can only be a good thing and might even stimulate one of the 'majors' to produce something.

realistic pits are becoming easier to assemble parts for now-Oleg, please note this trend for SOW

HEAR, HEAR :)

One difference I notice is that the SimWare 'grip' section is mostly a single moulded piece, whereas the Tarmac Aces stick is constructed from mutliple components as the original was (this is easiest to see with the additional thumb button on the left side of the grip).

They are both waaaaaay too expensive for me, though.

@Eckhart : as I told it to you last time , you can order on our website : other American simmers have done this yet, why shouldn't you ?

The stick sold on Simware isn't carried out by Tarmac Aces.
Just have a close look on it : it's a grip which try to be alike to a KG13 , not more .

The angle between the grip and the tube is not right.
The top of the grip hasn't the shape of a KG13 . It's nearer of a KG12 , but not exactly.
The trigger is very very simplified ...
Have a close look on the link between the grip and the release button , on the left side of the grip : it's awful.
The measurements of the identification plate aren't right , and it's only a print on the plastic , not a screen-printed aluminium plate , cold-riveted , as the original (and ours)
The length from the floor to the top of the grip isn't realistic .

In conclusion : it's difficult to believe that the person who made this grip ever had in hands a real KG13 . It's a bad copy , perhaps inspired by pictures.

The mechanic of this stick is obviously a traction springs equipped gimbals . I made it myself for my Cougar , two years ago .
Cost : 30 euros , with the micro bearings , the springs and the cermet potentiometers .

Any potentiometer , even the better one , wear out . It's electronical datas will decrease until you'll have to change it .

The Hall Effect sensors can't wear out , and it's electronical datas (way more precise than the better potentiometer) , will always stay at the best level .


Mr Schmid contacted us last year . He wanted us to equip his "cockpit". We didn't gave him an affirmative response : the level of detail of his cockpit was too low , absolutely not a replica level.
So he made himself his "grip looking like a KG13" , at the same level of detail of his cockpit...

Everyone makes it's choice .
Historical replicas , with the more accurate and long-lasting mechanism , or a joystick which vaguely looks like a real one .

We carry out active replicas , realized from the print of a real grip . Each part of our grips are realized like this . We doesn't alter any part to make it easier and cheaper to carry out . We made the choice to carry out "historically correct grips". It can't be cheap , we assume it . (and remember , we don't earn a penny on our grips : you have in hand a grip wich worth what you paid for it) (we do that stuff because we are passionated simmers : if we would have to feed our childrens by selling 800 euros joysticks ..... OOCH !!! :-( )

If you want good pictures of real KG13 , have a look here :
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/
It's as gold mine !

Go on our webpage : there is a new grip online , the third one which can be fitted on our Universal Base.
There are some very good news too for the Spitfire , Hurricane and Tempest addicts ...

Good flight !

Trollbug

Thanks Trollbug. Straight to the point and good discussion:).

As always in life when something is cheaper there is usually some hidden drawback ( I know about bad quality from the Cougar times:rolleyes:)

Now there are some additional questions. The LW rudder which can be seen in the video on the Tarmac website (http://www.valiant-studio.eu/tarmac/...ies_action.php) is not listed in the hangar stock price list. Will it become available soon?

Can you give us some information about the ongoing projects concerning a Tempest or Spitfire fighterstick? Will those fit to the universal base?

Do you work on some forcefeedback module? It would be so great to get some better feedback about the airflow under the wings ( just dreaming).

How far are you advanced with your own cockpit replica?

On a personal note, I was promised to get contacted by one of your sales reps....( I have to hurry before my wife finds out about that....):-)


In any case, many thanks for making this a really high quality stick (I have enough of the Cougar or Logitech cr#p!)


Cheers,

Eckhart

Dear Trollburg

I am "Mister'" Schmid.
I see no reason for your reaction .

When I got emails where people asked me about our stick , if it is a replica, I always answering : """""""""""""No it´s not.
If you want a Replica go for the Tarmac Aces Stick. According to their homepage, they produce 100 % Replicas."""""""""""""""""""".


I don´t want to have a word-fight with someone here, I am too friendly for that.

I like our stick and our cockpits as well. They are not too expensive.

However. Even after your arrogant comments, I wish you a great success with your products.

Boandl

....and about Halleffect sensors.
Even OUR "Steuerknüppel" is available with halleffect sensors.

Mister Schmid ,
I never wanted to be arrogant . I just wanted to tick off the differences between the Tarmac Aces KG13 and yours , to avoid confusion . I apologize if I hurted you .

@Eckhart :
Our parallelogram rudder will be available at mid-august , with optional pedals :Luftwaffe , RAF , or Jaguar .
The "spade grip" (the grip which equipped Hurricanes , Spitfires, Tempest , Typhoon , early Meteors , and early Vampires) will obviously fit on the Universal Base , but it will also fit on the new shifted axis Base.
We're working on a Force Feedback module which could be fitted under the Universal Base , but there's a lot of work until we can carry it out ....

Trollbug

Trollbug

Are your nice ruderpedals also Original ?

He he he.... pistols at dawn Gentlemen you can not let this insult pass you by ;)

Great! now we have both protagonists on this thread! I think it is important for us to get all the facts.

First of all, a triple huzzah for you guys making us dream with these great achievements!

Man we would all luv to fly in one of your cockpits... that's the stuff dreams are made of!!!!:):):):grin::grin::grin:

And Oleg don't forget about this !: You made a flightsim which was at one point the benchmark for computer performance! Keep your new work open for this kind of possibility. Who knows? In a few years, we might be able to have this kind of stuff on a more widespread base.....:!: Listen some years ago a few megabytes was the ultimate dream for computers and now...

So back to our thread:

Mister Schmid: all my admiration goes to your work and i would like you to expose more of the details regarding your projects! Can you give us more details about your fighterstick? How does it compare in your opinion to the Tarmac model?
What about this absolutely stunning cockpit? Is there a motion platform included? What kind of videoprojector do you use? Do you think that this setting would be appropriate with Il2? And the painful question, what would be the price range for this cockpit?

Trollbug: I am sorry if I made you walk on thin ice but I can feel how passionate you are about your project...
Are those future projects modular, I mean do they apply to the already existing universal base? It would be a pity to shell out a lot of money just to learn that there is some new better stuff in a few months which is not compatible with your equipment.


To finish: PEOPLE OF THE IL2 DREAMLAND! A triple huzzah to these fine people who are making the stuff our dreams are made of...:):):):):):):):)

HIP HIP...

HIP HIP...

HIP HIP...


Cheers,

Eckhart:cool:

You would be surprised to see where active WWII aviation parts can be found today ...
One of the Tarmac Aces Team members , Laurent , is a retired Jaguar pilot of the French Air Force .
He is also one of the founders and active members of a non-profit organization which goal is to restore and make fly a MD312 "Flamant" , the first plane carried out by Marcel Dassault Industries (under this name , of course) . (this plane use Argus engines , as the FW189)
This plane fly since last year ... :-)) (the starting of the V12 engines is very impressive ! )

Non-profit-organizations which restore planes have generally very good connections each others . Another one is restoring a 1920's french plane (a Morane ) , and , as they could not find original rudder pedals for this plane , they fit FW190 pedals on their rudder (I don't know where they found the pedals , but they're original)....
That's it !

@Eckhart :
Of course , this module will fit on the existing Universal base ! ;-)

Trollbug

I am interested in the development of an affordable full length stick.

I admire the dedication and passion of C6 Trollbugs sticks (and this is reflected in the undoubted quality of his product) .
At the same time I think Mr Shmid has a great looking stick, and I am excited that there are options availible.

For me the moddified x52 will have to suffice for a long time yet, but I would happily spend the same amount for again for something that looks and feels a wee bit like something from the 40's.
For heavens sake there is cheap labour in China! Why cant we get something affordable???

Hi,
i have one of Mr. Schmidts KG 13 Flightstick (Beta-Testing Prototype)in "test, over weeks":-P
I must say, it's a great Stick!!!
I fly IL2-1946 (since 2001) with a Hotas Cougar Joystick and i have no problems to change from Hotas Cougar to Mr. Schmidts Flightstick!
The Stick is, what "Hardcore - Fly-Simers" want!

I have no Understandig to one Posting here, that says Mr. Schmidts Flightstick are bad:evil:

Anybody ought to herself the Stick he want --- and can buy!!!
Sticks over > 400 Euro are allways hard stuff for the most Simers!

Best Regards!
76.IAP_Bibi

Bibi,

Was hoping someone who had tried Schmids stick would show up!

does your stick have the hall sensors or the pots in the base?

did you get it from Simware?

Tell us how you really feel about that other stick Trollbug! :-D

It's nice to see a few more groups entering into this aspect of flight controls. While I can perhaps understand why the producers might not like the competition, the consumers certainly should!

Since we’re being brutally honest, the prices of these sticks are just too much for me unless they are without compromise - I guess if I didn't have any other hobbies I might go for it - but between the combination of high price, and poor mechanical approximations, it seems that if I want a realistic stick, I should just fly real airplanes. . .and use cheap joysticks to help save cash for that. . .so that’s what I do.

If there really was a great stick out there that really was realistic, not just in cosmetics, but in action, I'd go for it.

I for one haven't found a stick yet that is very realistic in use save for the FSSB force sensor mod for the Cougar which is only accurate when compared to a fly by wire F-16 that it is simulating. Of course that's a pretty easy thing to emulate since the stick has hardly any movement at all, and thus, no "action" to speak of! Conventional cable or torque tube actuated flight controls certainly present the greatest challenge since a real aircraft transmits ever changing loads through the stick, it needs a long range of motion, and a range of stick forces and centering feel depending on the aircraft type and flight condition. This last thing seems to be the big issue with the Tarmac Aces stick. Without centering forces, it simply isn't a simulation of the real thing. I guess I can tolerate the fact that my 109 doesn’t need a 60 pound pull on the elevator when at 550 kmh, but there really should be some attempt at increased forces as speed builds, and there must be centering forces too. Even in modern aerobatic aircraft where stick forces and centering forces are comparatively low they, are not absent! The progressive increase in stick forces as the surface travels towards its limits, and as speed changes, are critical components of feel, as are the centering forces.

If I bought one, I'd have to modify it to generate some sort of centering force system, and for the same price I paid for my commercial pilot certificate, it better be finished already, otherwise I'd just build my own.

I guess I'm posting this because I keep seeing posts touting the non centering mechanism of the Tarmac Aces stick as if that is a good thing. Then to see the competition's stick get ripped apart in this thread based on cosmetics alone, without anyone talking about how it actually performs. . . some of us want feel more than we want looks. But if I read it right, Tarmac Aces wouldn’t sell him a stick because his cockpit wasn’t good enough?!?! I guess looks are really important to some.

@Tx_Ecodragon :
Our project began in 2005 by a thread launched by a simmer on the Checksix! forum . This simmer is a pilot pro , in real life.
He had the same dream of yours : a joystick of high precision with a real force feedback mechanism . With a real trim .

I was tired of my Cougar . Two monthes after I bought it , it's mechanism was replaced by a home-made gimbal , mounted on micro ball bearings , with traction springs . But twice the year , it's pots had to be cleaned ... And a F16 stick for piloting warbirds .... :-(

The meeting of the other members if Tarmac Aces was decisive : a retired pilot of the French Air Force , fanatic of IL2 too , and a collector of WWII accessories .

We putted together our ideas and decided to try . The first step was to realise a mechanical base , the most accurate and reliable , on which different kind of grips could be easily fitted.
This base had been conceived to be upgradable by a force feedback module , fitted under it.

But first , we had to valid the concept , the idea . That's why we carried out a second grip , asked by simmers , a jet grip . And also asked by simmers , a third , this week , for gliders or acrobatics (this one is not a replica ;-) ) That's why we carry out a gas throttle, and a rudder .

The second step is to realize this force feedback module , and the trim wheel (this one is easy to carry out , and designed yet). Thanks to a french simmers club , I met a simmer , computer scientist . He's interested by this project , and will work on it with us .

Our first step is not finished yet , but we're already working on the second one .

The simmer which launched this thought , on the Checksix! forum , was our first customer .
Other pilots in real life bought it too . They are all satisfied by their purchase . And wait the second step ...

I hope more competitors come into this market,and people can then choose which product is better for them.

thx for visiting this forum :) i think your cockpit looks very good !

i have 2 questions for you, if you have a moment.

have you considered using a generic cockpit structure for your sim pit where you can fit different cockpit strut shapes on top to represent the forward view in a 109, spitfire, p51 etc.. ? right now the visibility from the cockpit is always for a 190.

that way the main instruments of the cockpit itself would stay the same and have a generic layout, and no different hardware or wiring is needed, but for people flying ww2 sims they are then not restricted to a "one model cockpit", since the visibility from the cockpit and the shape/size of struts is so different in various ww2 warbirds. purchasers could then initially buy the cockpit in one configuration, and later buy at a minimal cost a "cockpit canopy" for a different ww2 warbird (that would simply be the cockpit struts seen on the forward view, maybe with the shaped surface that represents the top of the instrument pannel)

secondly, what type of projector and screen are you using for your setup ? right now it looks like a standard flat projector screen is placed in front of the cockpit, and it is placed a fair distance from the viewer, this then gives a fairly narrow forward view (30 or 40 degrees ?). have you considered using a curved projection surface to improve peripheral vision, and placing the screen closer to the cockpit ? (placing the screen closer to the viewer increases resolution and detail, and requires a less large screen because it occupies a relatively large part of the viewers vision)

there are several companies that now sell curved projection screens for smaller home theater setups, one of those in the smaller sizes they make them in would be perfect with your cockpit ! combined with one projector it can display video on a curved screen that represents about 120 degrees of visual field, the increased peripheral vision in a flightsim really improves the immersion factor !

this gives an idea of those curved screens,
an italian company that makes many sizes in curved screens (and different degrees of screen curve) http://www.smxscreen.com/pro-curve-p...or-screen.html
with many size options http://www.smxscreen.com/pro-curve-p...en-sizing.html

another company making some curved screens (solid projection surface i think)
http://www.videoscreens.net/curved%20screens.htm
(their website is not well designed, poor illustrations)
Model 3000...80 Inch Diagonal (2 meter diagonal)
Model 6900...120 Inch Diagonal (3 meter diagonal)
demo vid clip: http://www.floridamusicco.com/videos...arge-H.264.mov

another new curved monitor that might be worth integrating with a cockpit, but the fact the viewer needs to sit close to it might be a problem in interfering with the physical size and shape of your cockpit..... the rear projection alienware display (but is "only" equivalent to 2x 24' displays joined together, and requires special resolutions). at least it gives people a taste of curved screen gaming to improve peripheral vision !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV59VFgWUEI
http://uk.gizmodo.com/2008/01/10/ces...utrageous.html

Hello Windturbin,

i have Mr. Schmidts Flightstick with "Poti" in Test!
The Flightstick is one of the first (ten) Sticks from the Series!
I became the Stick to Test from Mr. Schmidt himself, not from SimWare!

I dont no, what "Release" the KG 13 Flightsticks (including Software) from SimWare are?

I can say, the Flightstick have a very realistic "handling". The Mechanic are very solid.
As "old" Hotas Cougar User have the Stick to few Buttons for me;) ... but's realistic:-P

Regards Bibi

First off, I would like to thank both Mr.Schmid and Tarmac Aces for their contribution to the WWII sim genre.

From pictures and video files alone, I am very impressed with both products.

I stumbled upon this thread after building my own base for a flight stick. I was always sick of the tiny movements of most plastic joysticks, and decided to manufacture a "full-throw" stick using hall sensors instead of pots.

After completing this, I starting looking for a nice grip to top off my creation and found this nice little thread!

I am very impressed gentlemen. I have been thinking about how to manufacture something similar for myself. After looking at both of your products, I have decided to start saving my pennies...

I think there is no question that both producers are passionate about their product. Thats a very good thing, the sim market is ruled too much by the usual brands like Logitech, Saitek etc. In the a "bang for a buck" category those sticks deliver honest quality, without any really pleasent surprise though...not even the X52. For example, I can not understand why a trim wheel is not incorporated in ALL sticks from the start. There shoud not even be a stick produced without one.
The french stick and throttle look fantastic, but they are really way too expensive for the wallet of the usual simmer. This does not mean they dont deserve their price. It's just a question of what most can afford. I hope that both producers are successful so that a lower price in the future becomes possible.

Ooops, I did it!
 

Yes I wanted to give you an update: after this discussion I made the big jump....YES, I ordered the Tarmac equipment (190 joystick, base, throttle).

I know it is a lot of bucks (and hopefully my wife doesn't find out so soon:rolleyes:). But on the other hand, if I add it all up.....

I started with the first MFS on MAC and then came the others (anybody remembers "Out of the Sun" on MAC?). After the CFS saga I got hooked with the IL2 saga since the beginning and the sheer visual beauty of this game still remains stunning to me.

About Hardware: I bought them all. Joysticks from Microsoft (two), Logitech (bad luck), Thrustmaster (the first generation for Mac, then the Cougar..all broke down very fast), Simped as a rudder(great, to be recommended) and now I am with the CH equipment (very nice but plastic).

The CH equipment is great but not really giving you the immersion you are looking for....So for a while I was dreaming about the Spitfire set (http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/offboard.htm) or even a cockpit like the one in the vid starting this thread (I hope that a true devicelink connection will be included into SOW).

Since I am still waiting to win the big price in the lottery, I stepped out of my dreams and used my economies to buy the Tarmac joystick....

I will update you about my experience with it as soon as I will get it!


Cheers,

Eckhart:cool:

Ps: As a little footnote, I would have preferred the Tempest joystick instead of the 190 but as my personal hero Pierre Clostermann said so many nice things about the 190...( for the french speaking community a must...his last interview on CD! http://www.editionsdupekinois.com/we...utique2_1.html)