Spitfire service ceiling...
 

I saw a lot of whinning about the low service ceiling of aircraft in CloD, some sounds like old WWII fighter pilots. I just want to have fun, and "near" real life performance.

I read some sources about Spitfire absolut and service ceiling, MkI, Ia, and IIa. The range goes from 30.000ft to 35.000/36.000ft.

In FMB I can set airstart with about 32.000ft. Starting from the ground, I can reach easily like 31.000ft.

I don't test the 109s of BoB time, but they operate with service ceiling 10km, about 32.000ft in real life. In CloD we can achieve such altitude?
Well... I can reach 31.000ft without killing my engine. It's so bad the FM regards service ceiling?

[youtube]6OiXeHLmlWU[/youtube]

I really don't understand... :(

In WWII Military terminology there is 'Service Ceiling' and 'Maximum Ceiling'.

Service Ceiling is the altitude to which an aircraft can climb and be combat effective. In the WWII era, the RAF determined when an aircraft reaches an altitude where its climbrate is less than 300 feet per minute that it had reached its Service Ceiling.

Although the Spitfires can climb to quite high altitudes, they are fundamentally challenged to fight effectively over approx. 15,000 ft. 109's are much more effective, better speed and climb, over that altitude, up to approx. 20,000 ft, even though they actually have a lower Maximum Ceiling than the Spitfires, being unable to climb over much more than 25,500 ft. Over 20,000 and up to approx. 25,500, the 109's continue to be faster, but gradually fall behind in climbrate, but in any case, both types are climbing at a rate which would be defined by most of Air Forces of the time as being combat ineffective.

Overall the altitude modelling in the game is one of the worst remaining issues. The STORM OF WAR series cannot progress effectively into later war scenarios with this problem unaddressed.

Of course it's not that simple. Yes we can touch high altitudes, barely.

Have you tried to see how fast you can go at that height or timed how long it takes to climb there? Don't bother wasting your life, it takes an eternity to get up there. Climb rates in this game are WAY off, everything is too slow. They are only somewhat accurate up to 10,000 feet. Also, the Hurricane climbs faster than Spitfire at present :confused:). Above 17,000 feet everything absolutely goes out the window.

I don't know why people think it's absolute service ceiling that matters so much, time to height is far more important. No one in their right state of mind is going to be trolling about at 35,000 feet anyway. It's time to height and climb rate at high altitudes that is what people are complaining about, after a certain point everything just drops up and you are standing on your tail to gain a few feet.

High altitude modelling will not be fixed until the release of the sequel. So we just have to make do with fighting at low altitude for now.

100f/m not 300f/m

@ trademe900

You expect the sequel to fix the high altitude modeling when the air fighting over Mother Russia was from low to medium heights?

Sorry, but i think you are wrong.

The numbers you supose to be the combat ceiling (climb rate of 500ft/m??? It's correct???), as i read, are the service ceiling (military or civil) of the aircraft, like Al Schlageter said, maximum climb rate of 100ft/m. In CloD with the Spitfire Mk.IIa i can only reach the MAXIMUM ceiling about 31.000Ft. I can't climb higher.

I think you are suposing that over 30.000ft is the operational ceiling of these WWII fighters of BoB time. I don't think it's correct.

Wikipedia:

"Combat ceiling

Combat ceiling is the highest altitude at which an aircraft is expected to have a given (usually 500 feet per minute) climb.[citation needed]

Alternatively, combat ceiling is defined as the highest altitude at which an airplane can sustain altitude and airspeed during a horizontal maneuver with a given bank angle (usually 15-20°).[citation needed]"

I don't tested this situation in CloD and I don't know the real aircraft numbers about combat ceiling. Maybe it's around 28.000/30.000ft.

Tested now. The CloD Spitfire MkIIa can achieve a sustained climb rate of 500ft/m until 29.000ft ceiling. It's defined as "combat effective" with the combat ceiling of 29.000ft, i believe.

Reading some data from real Spitfire performance published in internet, i believe that the combat ceiling of BoB Spitfires is around 30.000ft. I don't believe that CloD is so "off".

But i'm not an expert, just tested things in CloD and compare some sources with RL data and the altitude in CloD that Spitfires can climb 500ft/m. Well, we can fight below 29.000ft, i believe that's near the RL data.

If this data is correct, i assume that blue fighter pilots will have some serious trouble now... ;)

But i believe that with this final patch the 109s can climb higher than that. You tested with this final patch? Until the final patch the maximum ceiling of all aircraft was much lower.

Let me ask you this question, have you tried climbing from the floor to 30,000 feet? There is the answer; it is way off.

I don't tried, i do that.

And i compare the climb rates with some "real life data". It's not so "way off".

By the way, you tested anything? People here say that things are "broken", wrong", but based in what? Please, numbers, tests in CloD (with engine settings used), etc.

People just spread some info that things are "way off" and nothing to do the comparisons. ;)

As I said up, Spit IIa can sustain a climb rate off 500ft/m until 29.000 celing, and i don'y see why things above 17.000 "goes out the window"... I can fight in such high.

At 28 000 ft RL Spitfire MKII had 1230 ft/min climb rate and at 30 000 ft it had still 995 ft/min ( near 1000 ft/min). Co CLOD SPitfire MKII above 20 000 ft has at least 2 times worse climb rate then RL plane.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/S...7280_Climb.jpg

CLOD is way off regarding high alt performacne of all planes. It is the fact. Planes dont reach their historical service celling and above 20 000 ft they have seriously performacne drop which casue that above that height they are practically flightless planes. Not mention that 109 could climb only for ab. 7.5 km.

Using your source (Spitfire Performance) as I said, in CloD we have lower values comparing with the RL sources, but if you scale tings down (the maximum ceiling), it's not "at least 2 times worse climb rate then RL plane".

And this discussion about FM is forever. You believe that your work is the best in the world, and your sources are correct. I just want some balance and fly.

Mod the FMs and release to the community to test. CloD engina can achieve +32.000ft of maximum ceiling easily.

Bye!

You are digging yourself a hole here. The Cod climb rates are way, way off. Takes 7.7 mins to climb to 17,000 in cod, real life spit can get there in just over 6 mins, and that is only with 6.4lbs boost!

Also, the hurricane climbs faster than the spit. Hurricane is closer to its real life performance but still climbs too slow.

Truth be told

Most so called 'errors' in the FM can be found in the mirror.. ;)

see sig

Second time i agree with you. People just can't fly right. ;)

Fixxed that for ya! ;)

Yes, very funny... but I'm sorry, there is no denying the climb rates are appallingly slow. The plane is basically not even in a state of flight up there. Above 10,000k the time to height vs real life just plummets through the floor.

Good luck getting to 20k in 7 mins in cod spit! Hurricane will get there faster :confused:

Yea? Did you try DCS P-51? It is more complex then CLOD but their P-51 could get much more realistic performacne then any CLOD plane:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=95479

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94020&page=2

Speed and climb rate is very close to RL data in DCS P-51. Also i could reach service celling 41 000 ft ( RL data claim 40 000 - 41 600 ft depending of combat load). Plane is flown according to RL manual.

Pity that CLOD is way off comparing to RL data. RL SPitfire MKII between 20 000 ft and 30 000 ft should have sustained climb rate between 2200ft/min to 1000 ft/min. Try the same in CLOD.

So it is no pilot error just game bugs which confirm even 1C.

This is a recent post I placed in another forum. It's a quick comparison between the ROC of the real Spitfire 2a P.7280 and its counterparts from this sim and A2A Wings of Power 3. I hasten to add that I make no claim of high precision that would be achieved via Ace of Ace's or Klem's data gathering methodology just a quick, one-trial test of each sim vs 1940 data. Still, it's a good indication that somethin' ain't right:


I did some climb tests with the Spitfire 2a in Cliffs of Dover, then compared it to the results of the actual trial done on the real Spitfire 2a P.7280; then for smiles and chuckles ran the same test on the A2A Wings of Power 3 Spitfire 2a. I don't know the precise methodology used for the real test done back in 1940/41, but for the two sims I used the same procedure. Radiator was set to Full Open (100%). Per the Pilots Notes and the test run on P.7280 I ran both sim Spits at 2850 rpms, boost 9 lbs (= 100% throttle), flew at sea level until speed stabilized, then pulled up and started the stopwatch. I did my very best at maintaining the same climb speed of 168 mph IAS for both aircraft. I filmed both cockpits with FRAPS and timecoded both in real time. My data was taken from reviewing this video (link at bottom of this post).

Note: The Cliffs of Dover Spitfire 2a temps began getting dangerously high at 14,500 feet, so I coarsened pitch to reduce rpms down to 2600 which kept the engine from overheating. I concluded both tests at 20,000 feet as we all know the CoD flight model is borked above this -- no point extending the agony. OTOH, the A2A Spitfire 2a continued merrily on up past 25,000 feet at 2850 rpms with no overheating problems at all. I tried to get all the weights in line; the A2A Spitfire 2a came in a little light even with full ammo load, fuel 100%, and pilot weighing 300 lbs (burp! Supersize me!). Here are the numbers (video to follow):

Aircraft_____________ P.7280 _______________CoD _______A2A
Weight (lbs)__________ 6172 _______________6158 _______6086

Altitude -------------------- TIME ELAPSED FROM START (' minutes " seconds)
(feet)_______________P.7280________________CoD____ ___A2A______
SEA LEVEL _________0'00" ____________________0'00"_______0'00"
1000______________0.35 = 0'21"_____________ 0'11"_______0'06"
2000______________0.7 = 0'42"_______________0'34"_______0'15"
3000______________1.0 = 1'00"_______________1'10"_______0'30"
5000 ______________1.7 = 1'42"_______________2'12"_______1'01"
6500 ______________2.2 = 2'12"_______________3'04"_______1'24"
10000_____________3.4 = 3'24"_______________4'57"________2'25"
13000_____________4.3 = 4'18"_______________6'42"________3'14"
15000_____________5.0 = 5'00"_______________7'56"________3'51"
16500_____________5.6 = 5'36"_______________8'46"________4'17"
18000_____________6.1 = 6'06"_______________9'46"________4'45"
20000_____________7.0 = 7'00"______________11'58"________5'21"
12800*____________4.3 = 4'18"_______________6'27"________3'11"
* FTH
So, depending on the methodology used by the RAE testers, the A2A Spitfire 2a looks a little optimistic compared to the Real McCoy, but certainly closer in the ballpark compared to the John Deere edition of the Cliffs of Dover Spitfire 2a. But it certainly answers one aspect as to why Red players keep their Spits under 10 angels!

Top speeds of the two sims are a little off at 1000 feet (as tested):

P.7280: 294 mph IAS
CoD: __280 __"__ "
A2A: __301 __"__ " (Holy Moley....close to the dreaded Uber-Sissyfire 2a of the previous 1.59 Retail Version!!!!! Who'da thunk?)

Boring video alert!!!!!!

http://vimeo.com/53746471

These test show how far from RL data are CLOD Spitfire MK II up to 20 000 ft, not even mention that above 20 000 ft difference will be even more.

FSX flight model engine is not so good so i think it is not really good base for test.

I'm really impressed with DCS engine and how they manage to model P-51. It is very close to RL data and flight model is also very good ( much better then CLOD and sometimes it seemed to be more difficult then IRL :P ).

What can I say.. It's a gift!

Don't be sorry, because no one is denying the aircraft performance is poor at high altitudes, in that even 1C (Luthier and BS) said a long time ago that the performance is poor at high altitudes due to limitations in the FM. Which I find hard to belive and is just a cop out IMHO to explain why they are not going to put any more effort into fixing the FM

Than the new patch made things worse, because that was not the case in the previous patch, performance drop didn't occur until you got to around 15kft and it was not as bad as you described. That or your doing something wrong, but we will never know for sure because you did not make use of one of the C# scripts to record and log your data during flight.

Yeah, I cut off the testing at 20K -- climb rates for the CoD Spit was painfully slow by 20K.

I don't like the FSX flight engine very much, nor their graphics, even after purchasing the aftermarket enhancements. But I am impressed by the huge detail that A2A put into their Wings of Power 3 aircraft, which includes the flight data of the Spitfire MK1 and MK2. Although I would not say they are the authority for flight data, I wouldn't write them off, either. On this you and I will disagree.

Yes!! +1000! Especially with their latest retail version which finalized some engine settings & effects. It is a challenging plane to fly, but very rewarding. And it has guns, bombs, and rockets! Hear that, A2A? LOL