Bug-Thread for Patch-Release-Candiate (Friday, 28. Sept)
 

NOT A DISCUSSION-THREAD.

This is our last Chance for them seeing our bugs, so make it easy for them and don´t spoil the thread with discussions. Admins may delete wrong reported bugs. Please continue the list, using numbers in bold.

So here is Bug Nr. 1:

I was able to see the flickering of the flames coming from the engine INSIDE a Hurricane-Cockpit. It disapeared after a few minutes.

I ve can't start the engine of any red fighter except the Spitfire MKIa. Anybody can confirm this issue?

Bug Nr 2

Su-26 clickable pitch and rad lever don't work (rad won't respond at all, the pitch lever moves, but doesn't actually affect the pitch)

Online, I can only start the Spit II.

Key map also does not work for full rich, full lean.

Do 17 AI taxis to hardstand even though both engines Ko'd/out of fuel due to leakage.

Cannot get the game to launch, this is the first patch of any kind that I've had this issue. The yellow ClOD icon pops up, but then goes to a black screen and never comes out of it, have to hit alt->ctrl->del and then it says the launcher.exe failed.

Did the standard validate steam files -> clear cache -> apply patch but no luck. Even tried doing a full reinstall of ClOD with still no luck.

Running what is in my sig and latest AMD Catalyst 12.8 WHQL drivers.

EDIT: Solved, please delete post. As most have said SLI is the culprit for them; however I forgot JSGME still had InjectFXAA enabled and I was fussing with the settings trying to only get the color filter effects without the FXAA. Disabling InjectFXAA fixed it for me.

slip-indicator
 

Bug Nr. 4:

slip-indicator in SU26 reversed (or mirrored as you like)

Quick Mission in the channel to blighty,in auto after landing the Aircraft taxis across the field and into the hanger with the engine switched off .

Wheels of the 109 still appear down to the enemy in online play.

Also in the BF-110.

I have a similar problem, I get the reticule icon for a second then it disappears, no game running so I don't have to CTRL-ALT-DEL, also first time this has happened to me with a patch.

Edit;

It does seem to be SLI it doesn't like. It needs to be turned off globally though, it didn't work when I turned it off for launcher.exe.

I could start any Hurricane or Spitfire but the Spitfire MKIa MKIa 100oct and MKIIa do stop their engine at idle engine. The problem is again with cold engines with exception of the Spitfire MKIa MKIa 100oct...problems are back.
To start the ngine of any plane the throttle must be at least at 10% rich mixture and fine pitch.:cool:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Capwn http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/...s/viewpost.gif
Cannot get the game to launch, this is the first patch of any kind that I've had this issue. The yellow ClOD icon pops up, but then goes to a black screen and never comes out of it, have to hit alt->ctrl->del and then it says the launcher.exe failed.

Did the standard validate steam files -> clear cache -> apply patch but no luck. Even tried doing a full reinstall of ClOD with still no luck.



I have the same problem,

it is a SLI problem I did remove the SLI from nvidia drivers or controls and all was in order. Maybe it is the same problem with crossfire?!

Type: App crash (AccessViolationException)
Running as: Multiplayer server
Note: This error happened on the previous version too.

wrong text german version: 109 E-4 is named 109E4/b, Notleistung ein is named Nachbrenner ein, 7,92mm ammo is 8

Heu guys...I was having the same issue but got around doing this:

1) Validate the files in Steam - back to ver 1.05
2) once completed - restarted steam and launched CLOD
3) exited Clod.
4) applied patch files
5) launched and now working at v1.09.

might not help but worked for me.

It's not only SLI related
 

Cannot start launcher... After "Plane in the sights" logo, I get nothing. I have crossfired ATI HD6970's in a I7-950 rig that works well with everything except CLoD. I'm running out of patience.:mad:

Try turning off crossfire. People have to turn off SLI so maybe it is a dual card thing.

check your anti vir program please. i had the same black screen 3 times. When i unzip the files my anti vir program deleted 3 files. its fine now

Had the same issus. When I disabled my SLI i Nvidia controlpanel I was able to Launch the game. So If you have SLI disable it.

Cannot start game after re-downloading complete CoD verifying files tried everything.

I get the orange gunsight and desktop back ground.

And thats all.

I've read around that you have to disable SLI globally.

Bug: Hurricane engine temps too cold for engine start up.

Hurricane MkI 100 Oct: oil temp starts at around 16'C (although one trial oil was 12'C on spawn), engine wont start until 20-21'C. Method for starting engine was spamming ignition until temps reached 20-21'C oil, 40'C water. Radiator was closed; mixture auto rich; prop 100% (tried different % but made no difference); throttle 15% (again tried different settings, 15% worked well once temps got to near 20'C as prop would spin for longer).

Also, weird bug on ATAG: a/c sunk through the ground when attempting a take off and was damaged.

Ship "dots" appearing through clouds.
Hatch cable in 109 does not cast shadow. (minor bug)

Joystick not working anymore....
 

My joystick Saiteck X52 don't work anymore under Cliff of Dover since the beta patch.
The trottle work but not the joystick.
I have tested under windows and my joystick is fine and work well.
I've checked tje conf.ini and the joystick is enabled, I've checked the inputs and axis are well defined.

So can't test the awsome improvements of Cliff of Dover thanks to the last beta patch!

Mixture is still reversed in Hurricane Mk1 100oct; I had to move mixture to the forward (auto lean) position to enable a smooth running engine with Boost Cut Out Enabled.

I agree with Bounder ref the low temperatures preventing engine start, once Glycol had reached 45 degrees (ish) from constantly trying to start it, the engine would finally start.

Thank you devs the hard work, overall a very positive opinion of the people I know (nice new colors, great visibility, smooth gameplay, no 1 fps, etc.), but there are some serious bug (collected from Hungarian forum):

a- Already mentioned, the mixture in the RAF planes. I can't setting before flight, and most of the RAF planes can't start on the ground.

b- (Hubabacsi) He 111 flew without Tail (He lost the elevator and rudder, but he can landed with aileron and throttle only):
(maybe it's important, i was used the R.A.M. gun of the Su26 when these bug appears...)

http://kep-feltoltes.hu/image-BF6F_5066107D.jpg

c- (102.VO_Herr_LacAI) The Hurri can fly and landed after a 109 blew up half of the wing:

http://kep-feltoltes.hu/image-C200_50660953.jpg

d- I notice, hard to land and start from ground with Su-26, because the gear sink into the ground. During landing is causes blow-out the tire.

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO...928_230628.jpg

In my opinion too much did the intensity of the lighting in the daytime from the lamps lighting in the cabin + lighting from the exhaust.
In the past beta-patch everything was fine during the day, evening and night. In the final best to return as it was, than they are now, but now it is overkill.

mixture control not working on ground start
 

tested with Spit I, Ia, IIa
tested with all possible/available key- and axis-settings
tested with info-window showing throttle, pitch, rad, and mixture values

air-start: mixture works as expected. Lever moves on key, axis, and mouse click and move. Info window shows correct values.

ground start (engine off): mixture never worked. Lever never moves, info-window value never changes (neither on key, axis, or mouse click and move). Got engine up and running anyhow and flew around for 7 minutes. Mixture never started to work.

Artist

Bug: One can see objects through clouds via black dots.

This has been fixed or not occured the last Beta Patch, however now oen can see from ground level bomber formations through the clouds. Consequently, one can´t hide in the clouds.

Cold start for all Hurricanes and Spit I not Working
 

Could not get any of the Hurricanes or the Spit I to start on the ground. Tried changing mix and throttle to no avail.

No problem getting the Spit IA and IIA to start.

Very disappointed as there was a similar problem in one of the beta patches.

GAME BUGS:

(1) Hurricane cockpit has blue flashing light/illumination coming from cockpit floor below rudder pedals. Could be rendering of engine flame inside cockpit?

(2) Hurricanes won't ground start until water temp > about 30 degrees.

(3) Spline roads & urban & rural buildings do not appear in online MP server games.

(4) Vehicles travel through bridges at ground height & not over them.

(5) Static objects don't retain their Z-offset parameter, all are returned to ground height in-game.

(6) Rendering issue when cockpit view turns red (pilot injured). See screen shot below.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...s/?id=99735669

(7) In spitfire IIa, collided head-on with 109, entire plane exploded & disappeared. (a) I exploded, 109 flies on apparently undamaged. (b) my camera view left in mid-air, should be pilot-kill black screen of death after head-on collision.

(8 ) Spitfire engine cuts out when throttle pulled back below 30 percent percent.

(9) On custom-made air bases, taxiing Ai planes still jump into the air & crash to earth, or crash when they teleport as they taxi.

(10) FMB object rendering issues remain unchanged. eg. Piers at Dover only render at relatively close distance in-game.

FMB BUGS

(1) Spline roads don't show in FMB when a mission is loaded, they only show after you re-save the mission.

The result, after I wanted to park in an empty, open hangar:
When the gear touch the concrete ground, the 109 jumping around, and blow up (the Hangar had a ramp!). The last time I went to the airport, I had not seen anything like this... devs, pls fix it.

Glycol damage model is not functioning.

Tested for Bf109 and Spitfires. A plane shows damage and appear with all glycol lost, but, the plane has no heat changes.

For me still no brakes for the Spit...

Engine Shuts off when you cut throttle to zero... OK don't take throttle to zero!!!!

Nice that the Gun Sight Switch in the Hurricane works now...

The Spit IIa engine runs rough at low RPM’s starting at 11K and going up. It happens in a small bands between 2275 and 2350 at 12k feet and 2500 and 2600 at 17K feet. Below 16K feet if you are above or below the RPM band that causes issues the engine will run smoothly, however above 16K feet once you go below 2550 RPM the engine will not smooth out at any setting below 2550. Keeping the RPM above 2600 at altitude keeps the engine smooth, but it also gets hot from running high RPM’s

JD
AKA_MattE

ummm so now I have to close Trackir...logitech...then disable SLI globally...then turn on trackir....logitech.. and then start the game... do we see a problem ??

you lot might need this site soon.. coders life line.../

Still AI Suicide
 

The AI Wingman still does suicide, when the Player is landing.

Spitfire and Hurricane do not start with known procedure. If you use Autopilot for starting and wait till Oil Temperature is over 40°, you can overtake. If you overtake at lower Temp, engine cut.

The good news: You can now start without Autopilot (talking about offline only!) and your fligth will follow you. The initialation bug seems to be solved so far...

Cheers
Thomas

.
On the plus side the fps over London with the same plane conditions and flight plan than before the fps are max.44 min.11 has before they were max.50 and min.6 so nearly twice in min score for a little los in max.
There is still stuter at the usual places, when you salute the Queen at low altitude in her Palace.
Other little problems are there again but I hope because they were corrected once they shall be corrected again easily.
Like, the no starting of some RAF fighters and the idle throttle stopping the engines of the Spitfires types.
Graphics are better still too little and too late appearing clouds but this is only a beta patch so there is hope.
The most important with this game is hope!
:-P
I forgot the in my case big SLI problems but it sems there are also problems with crosfire for the AMD video cards owners.

It won't even start. Black screen and back to desktop.

.
Do you use SLI or crossfire? If so do disable them in the Nvidia controls or tha Amd ones.

It`s a bug thread not a discussion thread gents.

Cocpit bulb and engine flame lightning are too strong, they are well if visible in full daylight

109E-4 has been briefly tested:

E-4 still does just 465 kph near SL instead of historical 500 (without WEP).
Radiators, oil coolers do not add any kind of drag, do not slow the plane down (historical 1/4 open position was 0 drag reference, fully closed meant about + 10 kph, fully open about - 40 kph)

Probably true for all 109E, but not tested yet

Right hand side window on 109E is impossible to open with mouse (no mouse label to click on)

Spitfire 100 octane briefly tested

- plane does not seem to be able to exceed 280 mph ASI at SL even with boost and +12 used
- shadows in cocpit: rivets appear to have their own shadows, as if they were dots without a canopy
- impossile to break plane with elevator only even after dive. possible if trim is also used.


ATI card, latest official drivers

I assume it is a minor bug: left brake pedal of Su-26: animation is reversed.

.
When Spitfire engine even try to start and you apply brakes and contra ruder to the right plane still move to the left until it does a 360 circle when you try enough to start it. In my case 15 minutes and more than a 50 times. Every Spitfire type.:rolleyes:

Rudder movements of other planes are not displayed in multiplayer anymore.

I don't know if this could be a serversetting.
Observed on ATAG server.

Sounds like a netcode issue.

109's still seem to exhibit wicked accelerated stall and departure from flight, resulting in hard-to-recover spin. I believe this to be incorrect, that accelerated stall should be easily recoverable in the 109 by simply relaxing controls -- hard/unrecoverable spins should NOT occur. This is what I observed last night after several dogfights while flying my Spitfire -- saw a lot of spinning 109's. Can an experienced Blue pilot confirm/disavow this?

Thanks Luthier and team for this patch, it look OK so far. I tried it online (ATAG), same settings as before (Full) and found:

Positive:
- no more stutters flying alone (didn't cross a bomber wing to test the multi-plane situation)
- A lot of clouds
- ricochet effect is gorgeous
- tracers are realistically arcing down

Less positive (=bugs):
- ground object shadows still flickering
- in-plane shadows are grossly jagged????
- objects visible through clouds as black dots

I tried the Sukhoi, it's a lot of fun. I tried the vertical stall and with full rudder the plane swings down like a charm. Sadly it seems to miss a dynamic stall.

Regards,
Insuber

Getting alot worse microstutters:(

Under AI control spawned Spitfires won’t start, just endless ignition with props visibly turning. Only the Spitfire 1 will take off allright but also taxies with visibly turning propeller.

Regenerating your conf.ini might clear that up. Worked for our squadies that had the same issue.

So, rename your conf.ini to something like conf.ini.old and restart your game. CoD will re-create it for you. Test to see if the microstutters still remain.

If it doesn't work, just delete the new conf.ini and rename your conf.ini.old back to conf.ini

new patch 20111
 

I used the previous patch IL2COD_18956 the new patch is nothing too graphic and much, blurred slowly dashboard gleams me on the plane, especially when the warning lights on the horizon, especially trees and overall graphics are not good fuzzy, cloud shadows are indeed great, but the previous version of the patch for me is better deetaily beautiful graphics and amazing sharpness ... Therefore, I use an older patch.

Just popping in to report continuous microstutters too, despite the advice above. Occurs in cockpit view and also in external view to a higher degree. Overall performance has taken a 15-20% hit as well. I will throw this thing back on the scrap heap until the next, ah who cares...

.
Spitfire MKIA 100oct is impossible to get over 20.000 feet this is much to low, in the previous patch i could get it to 27.000 or with patience 28.000 fts without to much difficulty. Now I must say I get at 20.00 fts in less than 20 minutes not bad at all.

Probably an already known old issue, but sometimes friendly AI does not engage nor spot targets at all.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/icons/icon14.gif confirmed

the loadouts in singleplayer still doesn't work

Thanks! It worked!!

load outs
(customization for Single player) still don't work.

I sure hope for a hot fix for the Spits and Hurricanes!

Not sure what happen to quality control. But maybe they can only afford BF109E's quality control Testers? Because that plane still has no drag on control surfaces or radiators....

Need some help. Previous patch i was getting 30-40 fps over england, very smooth, now with th same settings i get 9-15 fps. Any ideas how to fix it?

E8200
GTX 260
3 gb ram
win 7

settings low-medium, no shadows

That did the trick thanks m8

- AI Stuka-Horns are neverending
- Spit on the ground: Water-Temperature increases to 97 degrees WITHOUT runing engine
- Rivers are displayed too wide on distance (Best example Dunkirk. Looks weird.)

LOD dissapearing planes:
it got better!but:spits still have the problem that they become invisible in a certain distance...a bit closer or farther away, and they appear again...for other planes this problem seems to be solved with this patch.

landing gear down bug: saw it now more often than with previous patches, that the landing gear seems to be down, while its obviously not.

contacts through clouds: although contacts are now better to spot in common, they now are visible through clouds as well(again).this is true for ground objects as well as other aircrafts.

ships?: i dont know, but i made a mission today and placed ships in the channel(both static and dynamic ones) and when i played the mission, all the ships were burning for some reason and sunk in the end.

as this is supposed to be the last patch, i will once more raise my voice and say: clouds are not visible the same way for different players.some clouds are even completely invisible for one player, while they are perfectly visible for the other player flying only a few meters next to him...

Hit Sounds

Hit sounds are working very well (and very loud!) offline, but not online. Just ran a test and was having trouble telling whether my engines were blowing up because I was doing something wrong or because I was being hit, then the pilot died. Unless I overheated or over-revved the pilot, there are no hit sounds (also it said I was killed by a G50, so it was definately the lack of hit sounds.)

+1

S!

The square lines came back with this patch. Easiest seen over water, like a drawn square around you. Were not there in last beta. Also the grass draws patch after patch when you roll. Next patch of grass area pops up when you reach the edge of the previous one. Seems changes to the GFX engine has brought back some old graphical quirks we used to have. Performance vise the game is OK. AI and radio comms could use at least some attention before moving on to the sequel, horrendous to play offline :(

EDIT: Hatch cables don't cast a shadow for me, AND the remaining cockpit shadows are very jagged. Kind of low res.

where are the skins?
 

..only the half of the hole squadron is with skins. the others are "standard".:(
or is it just by me???:confused:

i think this is not a bug

you need an upgrade my friend, that duo core processor is your bottle neck.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...=19819&page=13

GPU too, just upgraded from 260 to 560.

Still get micro stutters when near the ground but over all a general perfomance improvement, Will AA be implemented at some point soon in the graphic setteings? Balloons now have explosion effects ;) , but still stay in the air like a flat tyre after they have been shot up.
generally thumbs up.

all settings on medium, except original textures on
grass on
shadows on

win vista 64 bit
Geforce Gtx560
Drivers 301.42
Proccessor Intel Quad Q9650 3.Ghz
8 gig corsair Ram

Flickering view
 

Bug 1: Buildings, shadows and trees are still flickering, which is very irritating during long flights in about 2000m or below.
Bug 2: AIs do not obey radio commands, which makes offline playing boring.

And, please, bring back the sharp graphics of the cockpits and the better visibility that were included in the original COD.

Otherwise the new version is more stable and the performance is slightly better than before.

[QUOTE=Bungmiester;465275]Still get micro stutters when near the ground but over all a general perfomance improvement, Will AA be implemented at some point soon in the graphic setteings? Balloons now have explosion effects ;) , but still stay in the air like a flat tyre after they have been shot up.
generally thumbs up.

+1 totaly agree ;)

Bug 1: Buildings, shadows and trees are still flickering, which is very irritating during long flights in about 2000m or below.
I switch off SSAO and decrease antialiasing to X2 and notice a small overal improvement.

And, please, bring back the sharp graphics of the cockpits and the better visibility that were included in the original COD.
I notice an improvement in visibility now. yesterday on ATAG i was able to see two spits near Cap gris nez although i was near Dover :grin:

Bf 109E-1/E-3/E-4 still does not match their historical 500 kph top speeds at 1.35ata (1045 PS) near SL (1-min 1.45ata, 1175 PS WEP performance ca. 510-520 kph).

In latest 1.09 patch candiate they still only reach 460 kph at SL, which is wrong, and they are about 40 km/h slow!

Also, radiator drag is missing. This should amount to ca. 45 km/h, when radiators are fully open (see French trials)

The below specs all assume 1/4 coolant and oil radiator opening (drag = 0, ie. reference value).

The graph below overlays

- the official specs (BLUE line) for Bf 109E at 1.35ata, guaranteed within +/- 5% by manufacturer
http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...chreibung.html

- original paper's flight test with Bf 109E-1 WNr. 1774 achieving 498 km/h at SL at 1.35ata (there are two lines, the thick black line is for the engine at 1.31/1.33 ata, which developed 45 horsepower less than it should, the staggered line showing performance corrected for standard day conditions and guaranteed engine specs. http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...w_109V15a.html
Original paper posted in full here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=465 and here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=468

- flight test results of exported Swiss Bf 109E-3a WNr. 2404 (RED line) at 1.35ata, but presumably at high altitude gear (hence lower values at low altitude, but matching values at high altitude)
http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...109E_J347.html

- flight test results captured French Bf 109E-3 WNr. 1304 (GREEN line) at a lower 1.3ata (lower output: 990 PS!) confirming performance of the above, with boost falling down prematurely at altitude. http://kurfurst.org/Performance_test...formanceT.html

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...psd822ce28.jpg

Performance wise last Beta was good. Now loadsa microstutters.Dreadful!:(

Back to the old patch
 

I went back to the old Patch. I copied the old version back 18,956 and goes again great, but I only play offline, I do not play online, I do not have time. :)

Track option no longer works, can click the menu link as much as you like and no browser window will open to select a track with.

.
Statistics are still not correct or corrected new planes are not in them even if they appear in then for a brief moment. it is not very important but?!

Funny no microstutter here. Did you delete cache and conf.ini, as suggested before?

Same problem here, ATI 7950

Cleaned cache, downgraded by Steam and working in 1.05
patch 1.9 applied and not working,
1.8 again and it works... :(

No gun sight reticule visible in the 109 when illuminated 100% although spilled lighting effects from gun sight very visible.

I know Mastiff, but upgrade right now is not possible. Anyway I had a drop from 40fps to 10 fps with same settings, so i´m probably missing something or did something wrong.

Thanks anyway

- Players Cannot fire turret machine guns or rear guns in multiplayer. (this only happens when an enemy aircraft is nearby)
- AI gunner will no longer target after a player has occupied their gunner's position and left.
- AI gunner often doesn't shoot at enemy aircraft
-Distance Dot LoD of boats, buildings, lights, and other objects can be seen through clouds and sometimes the ground.
- Boats sometimes float above ground, hang upside down, or sink under water during multiplayer missions.
- AI flights sometimes behave move/behave oddly in multiplayer missions by spinning or bobbing up and down

The fuel tanks in Dover no longer explode when shot – pity, it was part of my test routine. Slight performance increase compared to the last beta. Nice to see the cloud shadows back, pity the shadows from smoke look slightly strange, but at least they’re there :)

It's not the bug. Just use it's right. After using gunner position press Alt+F2, after C game think that you occupied two positions.

Interesting...

I am getting a distinct slow down through heavy smoke...a slow down I didn't see so abruptly in the last patch.

Did you turn off shadows?

BUG: in the Bf-110 the yellow light of "Bombs Armed" doesn't work anymore.

Try running the dotnetfx fix. Its in the redist folder
under the il2strumovik folder

S!

The dust during take-off and landing is a real FPS killer. And now it can be seen during taxiin in the cockpit causing choppiness and stutter with lower FPS. Remove the dust altogether or reduce it drastically, we are not flying in Africa at the moment ;)

Towns cause again bigger FPS hit with industrial areas visible. Le Havre and good luck having good FPS. Earlier patch had no issues whatsoever, could fly and fight over Dover without choppiness.

Shadows of plane structures OUTSIDE the cockpit are blurry, they were sharper in previous patch. Inside cockpit all is fine and dandy. Tree shadows seem to be a bit different as well, hard to tell if flickering more or less but blurrier now.

I have had a strange problem with controller delay after disabling autopilot(had to get more coffee). X and Y axis worked normally, but rudder and throttle did not come into play until after about 30sec. Controllers in signature, work in other games perfecty. This did not happen in previous patch.

The "LOD square" is visible again, thin lines drawn near the horizon where it changes from sharper textures to low-res tiles. "LOD circle" more prominent now with building and tree pop-up around player plane. Also grass pops up in tiles as you taxi on ground.

Hit sounds missing almost completely, heard being hit only 1-2 times total in several games(testing an upcoming campaign). But as stated by Luthier, sound man is working on the engine still?

Some features I've noticed..

Thank you for your feedback. Working on British engines, distant dots, and others at the moment.

Just a couple of quick points though.

That is working as intended actually.

That again is working as intended - finally. I know it was kind of fun to have a giant fuel tank explode when hit by a single round, but that really shouldn't happen. We've gone through most of the ground objects and their damage model, and they should correctly consider material type and wall thickness. You're going to need something bigger than a .303 for those fuel tanks now.

Hurah...:grin:

Thanks.

Sorry, what's working as intended? Surely not the difficulty starting some red fighters? If so, can you please add an option to start warmed up?

No he means the mixture is now correct, it fooled me but the spit buffs told me its working like it should I.e. you cannot go to lean mixture when the throttle is back...

Please have a llok at bugtracker and solve some important of them, includin view control, which for me personally is a reason, that I and many others of the squadrons don't fly.