British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.
 

Thanks 1C for the improved stability from latest beta patch.
Please work hard on the British FM as its killing the enjoyment of the game for many allied pilots.

FM issues

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration.

Axis FM's need work too. Best level speed in the E3 I can get at altitude is ~490 km/h @ 4000m.

According to the Swiss and French tests it should make about 540 km/h at that altitude.

I agree, there are many things wrong with the 109. But online play will be boring for you 109 flyers if there aren't any spits or hurris to shoot down.
I fly all the planes, and in my opinion the British fighters really need a lot of work.

All this poll will do is get answers from red n blue pilots voting their side..I don't think its 'killing' the game..

I've seen the reds be a lot worse than what they are now and I've also seen the spit2 completely taken the pi## with its FM..

Both the reds and the 109 need tweaking and if you read the latest update they are indeed working on them afaik

Latest update?

Link please.

I'm just worried about this statement;

" Please note that the general performance of the British aircraft is much closer to desired envelope"

Are you saying 490 km/h indicated or true airspeed? Because if you can get up to 490 km/h @ 4000m indicated then the FM is almost on the mark.

Unfortunately, a lot of red pilot air combat knowledge depleted therein(honorable exceptions),that pulls level,with extended flaps. I think first,should be practiced in the other air combat tactics,because that kills the game a lot better.

~S~

I believe the OP was more concerned about the relative LW to RAF performance rather than absolute performance (which is obviously also wrong, I agree).

From playability and 'fun' point of view, which I believe is what OP had in mind in the first place, there are serious issues for this performance gap that exists in game did not exist in so called real life. Hence the frustration of many red pilots. I fly both sides and I admit that unless I do silly stuff in my 109, the RAF can't touch me.

Nitrous,

blue flyers responding to the poll will significantly distort the outcome of anything you are trying to achieve here :)

Hey Pogi! ;) This is not so much about tactics but about relative performance. Maybe you can take the Spitfire and show me how you defend against well flown 109 one day ;) We've met on Repka 'mince meat' few times, you know what I mean mate... S!

*edit - I am very happy that in the 1.08 beta, they changed the neg-G behaviour. That on itself increased the chances to survive quite a bit. What it was before was quite terrible :o

Only the ones who never tried the other side properly.

In my opinion, every reasonable 'blue pilot' should be able to see the difference and if a person cares (or wants) to try to walk in the others guys shoes, his opinion will be much more valuable. That goes for both red and blue, there is no difference to me. It's always easier to judge without trying - like strict blue saying the red tactics is wrong, or the red saying the 109 is doodle to fly. None of that is true actually but you can't explain that to someone who never tried. Just my 0.02 Eurocents ;)

It may not be appropriate for the flight model and this applies to both sides, but I do not think that would solve the problem so they can fly. I stress, my respect for the exception;) .

I follow Robo : when i feel tired, i fly an 109 ! flying high, gaining speed, no doggy fly and i'm most of time able to let red fighters far away from my tail. More than speed, as a red fighter, the most annoying to face is increasing overheating past 10000ft. Under this altitude, tweak the mix, full throttle, full prop and no overheating. Over 10000ft, a SpitIIa is an half threat. Over 15000ft, the same Spit well handed is none a threat (except a bounce or wife or kids boring you).

The Spitfire turns now better and dont lost energy as in real and you want turn better and want lost lower engery? Maybe we make the DM from bomber more worse too so 1 spit can shoot down 20 bomber in one time with his laserguns? The backgunner are now worse. In real a single fighter who attack a bomber formation wants to suicide.

Maybe you want a arcade sim? Oh we have one....!?!:rolleyes:

Doesn't matter, man. As soon as (if) 1C puts any red plane on a competitive level with 109s, good ol' ATAG will limit them to 3 or 4 per mission. So you won't get to fly them anyway...just like they did with the IIa in the steam release version.

Tell me I'm wrong, go ahead.

Okay your wrong, jesus christ man grow up.

At one time they limited Spit II and BF109 E4's to 5 each side, stop spreading your BS everywhere.

ATAG are not biased to either side, from what I have seen they have a similar number of red and blue pilots.

You should be embarrassed with your behaviour its disgraceful.

Nitrous, you should have ticked the "show who voted" box.

That way you could see if anyone was trying to mess with the results.

I'm here to enjoy Cliffs of Dover. If Bue performs beter than Red in FM it doesn't bother me. And this Poll, although well meant, won't achieve anything.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Very well said and I agree completely. Personally, I believe it's fully possible to create flight models that feel correct historically but are balanced in multiplayer. I do not think absolute historic fidelity is possible.

What bothers me in these debates is that the OP starts with a clearly biased statement. Yes, those things listed should be corrected but no mention of the things that are over modeled. Open canopies that induce no drag, flaps that can be dropped at any speed, turn/roll rates that are way over spec, wings that can have massive holes in them without loss of maneuverability, energy retention in high G turns. Problem is I think pilots have become so use to these things that if/when they are ever corrected there will be another wave of forum bitching and 1C conspiracy theorists. However, if these issues are not corrected in tandem with FM improvements then we go right back to the uber Spit IIa.

There are 109 things that need corrected also. Leading edge slats that do nothing, rudder trimmed for too slow a speed, fuel tank that is maybe too vulnerable to rifle caliber hits (that goes for all fuel tanks in the sim) but the set and forget throttle should be corrected too as well as heavier elevators at high speed. I'm sure there are many blue pilots who cruise around at 1.35 ata at all times and will get quite a shock if complex engine management is ever actually made complex.

Anyway, I vote yes because I want to see more Hurricanes. :)

+1

I also fly both sides, and I'll add that many times I encountered 109 in low stall (1000-2000 ft) I climb a bit to avoid collision, he went out of stall very low so no chance to dive and gain speed, and I couldn't catch up with properly trimmed plane ( some of them I cought on second stall ))
There is not a bigger mistake that 109 pilot can make,but I must add the sensitivity on rudder is still to big in my opinion and I asume that pilots with rudder on twist have a lot of trouble with it.

Climbing ability of 109 is also too strong right now, even if on the same alt and E with spit or even 2 or 3 of them, spits can only defend and count maybe on some lucky shot.

Yes, I agree.

The only thing 'killing' the game is unfounded claims

For example, note that no proof of any of the claims was provided!

Which is not to say the claims are false! Only that no proof was provided!

My point is simple

Based on 20+ years of flight simming.. Most claims of FM errors turn out to be pilot errors! So, unless your collecting real time data while performing these tests, any and all claims will remain unfounded

There are several C# scripts here that will collect test data during flight, FST has one, i.e.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=27552

And klem who made changes to FST's script has one, i.e.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33661

Now only do this if you want your claims to be taken seriously and if you want to provide useful feedback!

And don't stop there!

Next provide the real world data your using in your claims that such and such is too this or that.. Because without real world data claims of such and such being too this or that is pretty meaningless!

But if all you want to do is stir the RED vs. BLUE pot that please continue to make unfounded claims of FM errors!

I see what you mean, but I don't think you're entirely correct in your statement.

In the 1.07 beta for example, the Spitfire was really turning very good and it was very difficult to get the plane into high-speed stall which was plain wrong. Luckily, this has been resolved in 1.08. I believe the Spitfire overall characteristics have been changed in a good way, except for high speed roll-rate which is still way too high.

The Hurricane though is still a bit of a mess - the wing drops for no reason at all even at nice corner speed and there is no way you can get better turnrate than a Spitfire, which was the case in real life and it's well documented. Just an example regarding the turnrate while you mentioned that although the OP never mentioned it.

The OP is not very clear in the forst post, just mentiones RAF FMs in general and one has to agree for it's very frustrating for any pilots who try to fly these machines. Mind you the biggest problem is the overheating of the Merlins and the so called CEM characteristics - this has been changed quite a few times recently and on pretty random basis. I don't mind exploring the changes everytime I install the new beta patch but it's quite unpleasant to see that while some things are being fixed and addressed, others are being broken in the process - and they were alright before! It leads to funny situations like when you have to fly at auto lean mixture if you want to engage emergency power, which is hilarious but there we go. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the beta patches and I can see the devs are trying to improve things, but they are somehow not getting there. :grin: :grin: Have you tried fighting the enemy at 2200rpm csp? That does not make sense, but you have to do that otherwise you'll blow your engine up for no logical reason at all. At random altitudes, mind you. You are simply gonna die no matter what tactics you come up with... still fun. I am coping with that but I can tell you that it is really frustrating sometimes. Maybe difficult to see on the other side of the river where you can bang your Erhoehte Notleisung again and again and again and again. ;)

I also like the general tweaks of the rudder response - this concerns all planes in new beta. It's still not perfect but much better than it was. Same with negative G and other tweaks. DM of the Spitfire needs lots of attention though, like wing thoughness and other important details like canopy drag, flaps behaviour etc etc etc.

In general, I very much agree with Notafinger! and vranac, I typed too much already but no matter how you look at it, the Reds have got it more difficult at the moment due to constant changes and more silly FM issues (e.g. aggressive overheating). In my opinion of course, based on my red and blue experience.

Let's better wait for next beta :grin:

As long as we will not have 50 plus bombers and half of that escort against 6 to 9 defenders this discussion is pointless. This is not formula 1 racing. Your average mechanic is not from McLaren group. What this sim tried very hard to forget from the beginning is tactics. Spitfire DIDN'T won the battle...radar did. One on one duel is only in the 15 seconds fighter pilot memory. I simply don't get it, why after REX, global mesh, 30 odd bombers in Mighty 8th or Rowans work we fucken go up, see from Paris to the Glasgow and cannot see buggie at 500 meters. MOST of us wouldn't pass ******* eye exam so how about leveling chances for everyone at spotting targets which is independent of hardware. Why anyone is ALLOWED to fly ALONE.....Online or off.
I went thru the phases.

Twisting joystick in open cockpit, Joint Ops school, closed cockpit and then waiting in HL for KG Alpha,nearmiss,Ament77,Starbo,sgt.Johnston and many more to take part in their coop missions.I don't give flying **** about grass or rivets on the Panzer III, what I need is continuation with more planes and some ORDER. One time Flanker35 told us that offline campaign is boring...I told Him, next time You land make sure ALL Your AI pilots land too....Flanker35 You were right about state of the game, at that time I was fanboy....I'm writing this cos somehow we've got sidetracked. One of us in the signature has this thing from Oleg about importance of pilot above the machine. I shot down him in La5 in vertical fight with his beloved Kurfürst...
some European server upper right corner ,small map and ping like 200-Vancouverite here.
Point is - to those table numbers armchair researchers - your data is for level flight ...the moment shit hits the fan is either 10 seconds or 3 minutes effort
and then usually somebody on either side will "TRY" to HELP YOU.
Sorry for crying but this thing reminds me moment when we switch from CFS3 to Sturmovik. As far as I'm concerned this game will need patch in the neighborhood of 10 Gigs something like UP or HSFX.

nynek

I am not entirely sure if I understand what you're saying here mate :(

Of course it applies to both sides. There are issues in RAF and LW fms. And we only discuss the fighters here...

I don't think you need 50 plus bombers to get the flight model of say Bf 109 (more) correct :-P

And now tell me WHAT is correct ..tell me ,everybody and remember after enter it'll be cast in stone....go ahead

nynek

As you might be aware of, all planes in the sim have got wrong top speeds and top ceiling. That would be, imho, something to start with. What you are saying about tactics, scale of operations is all nice, but completely independent from FMs as such.

Tell me WHEN did You shot down anything above let say 6 klicks?

nynek

I don't understand why are you asking this. Are you suggesting that the high altitude performance and correct FM regarding altitude (e.g. top ceiling) is not so important in a flight simulator?

But to answer your question - I almost always fly very high, no matter if RAF or LW and I happen to be shooting at e/a's in 6-7km (or 20k+) rather often. Why do you need to know and what does it has to do with anything discussed in tis thread?

Why You have to fly high when Do, He and Ju are bombing at 3 to 5 km. RAF or LW You have to go there to complete the mission.On either side.You see my point?

nynek

Try flying ATAG Server #2. The bombers are flying at all altitudes, including 21.5 angels. And at that height I've still encountered 109's diving out of the sun.

It is 9-12 PTS here. Put something on YT from tracks and I repent.

nynek

I don't care if you repent or not. :rolleyes:

No, I don't see your point I am afraid. As Snapper says, you need to fly up high to get to the bombers. And even if you were right (and you are not I am afraid), then you should be able to fly up high if you wanted to, no matter where the bombers are, for you might want to dive on them, or try to get to the escort, if that's your mission... 20k+ is pretty much normal 'historical' combat altitude of this era. This has been also remodelled and it's betetr now than it used to be - just for the record and to be fair to the devs...

And sorry I have no means or intentions of uploading youtube videos to prove something I know already. You don't have to repent, I don't mind at all.

:wink:

Also, our highly-esteemed mission designer has seen fit to improve the marksmanship of the bombers' gunners. No "Golden BB's", but it IS foolhardy to approach from dead astern at our accustomed closing speeds and expect to escape unscathed. (Which also made us target-fixated Red pilots easy pickings for escorting 109 pilots on high, anyway).

Instead, we're far better off employing the boom & zoom techniques which our Blue friends have mastered so well, including well-timed deflection shooting. Not only does that give far better odds against defending gunners and fighter escorts, it also gives far better angles on a bomber's vital parts in terms of Damage Modelling. But to do this, altitude is key. Don't need no steenkin' YouTube videos to prove THAT! LOL

;)

Actually, it's because of good input like yours that we're using Server#2 to try to improve the online missions. We offer a warm invitation to you and everyone else here to give it a try and let us know what you think -- good and bad. It's continually being tweaked, but we rarely have more than 10 or 12 players on at a time. The load time is a little longer -- about a quick trip to the fridge for a....soda pop. ;) We need to see how it stacks up with more players before we move it over to Server#1.

cc

Well, I voted yes finally.

Bring back the old Spit II and Rotol Hurri FMs I say. I wonder how they'd compare to the current 109s? Be nice to find out. ;)

Salute

Anyone who looks at the historical tests of the Spitfire and Hurricane can see the current game FM's are completely out of whack. The fact you can't run the aircraft at 2700 rpm and +6 boost for ANY length of time without destroying your engine is clearly wrong. The fact none of the British aircraft can reach their historical max. climb or speed is another clue.

And perhaps the 109's have some small details, but when compared to the British aircraft, they are far better off, in fact their ability to zoom climb with ZERO energy is highly suspect.

Currently even those with a mediocre level of skill can fly the 109's successfully, those who have 10+ years in gaming will find the British aircraft not much good for anything but shooting down bombers, any attempt to engage an aware 109, even with energy and speed advantages, will result almost immediate reversal of the attacker/defender positions and a desperate fight to survive on the part of the British aircraft.

This situation is far from being a realistic portrayal of the situation in the air in the Summer of 1940. If British aircraft performed this poorly, the RAF would have lost the BoB instead of shooting down far more German aircraft despite being completely outnumbered.

The raf planes are good for nothing but shooting bombers at low altitude, and even then are pretty poor. The 109 climbing is just ridiculous and I think everyone agrees on the overheating merlin issue.

I would rather take a Blenheim into a dogfight than a hurricane in the game's current state.

it's funny how you reds are continuously whining about red FMs..

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

not to mention the controversial ones.. like many 109 pilots saying that they could actually outturn spits in turning fights.. you are aware that those slats are not in there for nothing, right?!!

Well, but you forget, that the main reason for the higher losses of the Luftwaffe are, that they had to fly over enemy territory, so no bailed out pilot would come home to fly again.
The 109 had a short range, and they used the wrong tactics (staying near the bombers and so on).
When the RAF began to use the Big Wing tactic, the fate changed even more for the RAF.
And because of their Radar, they knew where the enemie bombers would come from, and could guess where they would go to.

They didn´t win because their planes were highly superior, but because of better tactics, and more luck.

The Hurricane was, except for turning, outclassed by the 109 in everything, expect maybe for handling, and the Spitfire could turn better and was a bit faster below 4000m. But if they flew higher than 4000m the 109 was as fast as the Spit, even a bit faster.

But I have to say, even if I mostly fly the German planes (and just to make the list complete, the 110 is nearly 50km/h to slow too), that it´s not much fun to fight with a Hurricane or Spitfire against a well flown 109.
Not enough that I could bang my head against the canopy everytime I have to start the engine, which is every time a fight if it will keep running or not :evil: , but also during the normal flight and during a fight. I may have some problems with the red engines, but without doubt I can say, there´s something rotten in the case of red fighters.

But!, like others said before, the blue planes don´t meet their real performance too.

What I personally find very funny is, that over more than 10 years, it were mostly the blue planes who were undermodelled compared to the red (mostly Russian) planes (or maybe they were made better than they were:confused:), and now, we have a similar situation, although I think, it´s not so extreme like it was some years ago with old Il2.

nothing to do with whiners or compare Blue vs Red planes. Original post is about historical accuracy. I think that we're all going to be winners if we could stay away from usuals rants and judgements.

First: There is no such thing as "red FM" or "blue FM". There is "the FM" and it needs to be as accurate as possible.

BUT ...

People here, on both sides, should take a step back and look at what they're expecting. I get the distinctive impression that some RAF fans want to see the historical outcome reflected in the FMs, at least subconsciously. [Sarcasm] Hey, we won! So our aircraft must be faster, more maneuverable and better climbing![/Sarcasm]
And I see Luftwaffe fans who want to emulate the deeds of the classic LW aces. [Sarcasm]They shot down XYZ aircraft! The 109 must be faster/more maneuverable/better climbing/whatever![/Sarcasm]

Well, to both sides, you can't! Best you can hope for is a field as accurate as possible, everything else depends on the mission builder and the players. But, unfortunately, the overwhelming majority likes its mindless clusterf*ck. :(

Oh good, Buzzsaw is here, which means it's bias time!

I'm pretty sure everyone that matters acknowledges that all the FMs on both sides are wrong.

Yes, we all know that they should ignore the flaws in the 109 because the RAF has it worse. They definitely shouldn't fix ALL the errors on BOTH sides. Let's minimize/ignore the 109's problems like being way too easy to get into a spit/accelerated stall and being 50 km/h too slow at altitude. Because those Blue guys are just Nazis. :rolleyes::rolleyes: I won't even get into how bad the G-50 is.

What a joke. :lol: Please post a video of a 109 zoom climbing with zero energy. I dare you. Until you do so, you are nothing but a biased troll. Something tells me we won't see a video of a zoom climb from "ZERO energy" though. I won't hold my breath.

The Soviets repelled the Luftwaffe. Were they also flying superior aircraft in 1941? :rolleyes: The RAF didn't win because of overwhelmingly superior aircraft. Correlation does not imply causation.

well, the 1C team has still a not short way to go, the FMs, Planesystems/-controls, AI, GUI, to name some things............

Hi Adonys, just as you say, you can make complaints about the Bf 109 flight models, there is lots of things that are wrong. But the ones you mention are clearly not among them I am afraid:

- outclimbed, outspeeded and outrolled by the RAF? Probably not :grin: Unless you are doing something seriously wrong.

- neg G has been fixed and reading the reports it seems that they're finally based on RL values. It was way too harsh in the previous patches. It is stil affecting the red fighters.

- Bf 109 made of paper - depends, sometimes you can get lucky and make him B/O with short burst, sometimes you hit him with loooong one and he keeps going and outruns /outclimbs you with no problem. ;) I've been shot at by 109s I shot down in flames, but that goes for both sides I guess. I agree the 109 wings are too fragile when being hit by another 109 cannon and Spitfire wing is made too strong on the other hand.

Escaping red on your six? Easy. Keep flying straight and / or start shallow climb. Depending on how fast he is in the first place, obviously.. Or just neg-G and dive, then climb. He won't follow you if he's good and he will get you eventually but that's the way it is in combat when you have good pilot on your six. Spiral climb works prety well, too. It is possible to get out of very disadvantageous situations just by using the 109 abilities (and yours of course) simply due to the performance gap between 109 and RAF fighters. This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here. ;)

You can do this in game - at certain speeds, or if the Spitfire pilot is not so good and you are. You can outturn a Hurrican no matter how good he is.

Quoted for emphasis. Historical imbalances should be modeled.

Spitfire 2a was heavily nerfed in recent patches. It's not an I-Win button any more, like it used to be a few patches ago.

Very good post mate! Just to clarify, noone expects the Hurricane to be able to outclimb the 109, but the fact that it does not have superior turn rate to either Spitfire or 109 is rather shocking. ;) As it is, the Hurricane can't be flown to historical specs due to engine everheating issues AND you haven't got even the one and only advantage which was the good turnrate. Just as you mentioned it...

As for the atitude vs. speed when comparing the 109 and Spitfire - that was wrong way around actually and completely unhistorical. There is no altitude where Spitfire would enjoy speed superiority at all, and funnily enough, the only altitude where you can match the 109s was actually way above 4000m. I hope you get my point about the realtive FMs being completely wrong. Somehow they happen to be more frustrating for the red side at this moment, therefore I mostly agree with OP.

Oh yes, there is no doubt that the DB 601s are not up to specs, too. I love the 109 and I fly it very often, but in current version, I don't seem to 'feel' the lack of speed. I know the top speed is not correct and I hope it will be one day, but I never actually needed those 50km/h because of the RAF FMs. If they fixed both sides, the gap simply would not be as huge as it is now. That is my point...

Exactly. Plus the overheating and you're frustrated as the OP.

Well, I also have 10+ years in 1946 and I remember all the FM changes. I flew with 'blue' squad and I never felt the 109s or 190 undermodelled. Quite the opposite with G-2 or G-6/AS ;). Of course there are Russian UFOs but they were beatable at certain conditions (altitude etc). I have lots of hours in all of the planes in 1946 including the crapplanes, especially them - so I can tell you that my opinion and experience is, that it's not so easy to beat any planes, especially the blue ones, if they're well flown. That's fair enough of course. There are more planes to choose from and the tactics and balance were easier to cope with. In CloD, you only have 3 main fighters and the 109 is untouchable unless he starts to do silly stuff. They're all porked, but the RAF ones are porked better :grin:

*edit* spelling

Definitely, I have no problem with that at all. I actually chose to fly for the RAF because flying inferior planes is more of a challenge.

What I do have problem with is the status of the FMs for they do not reflect the so called reality at all. The perfiormance gap was nowhere close to what we have got in the sim in 1.08. Yes, there are some improvements throughout the current betas with some random changes (especially for the RAF as there are 2 new versions) and the changes are in good direction. But new issues with mixture, overheating and general performance are spoiling the fun for the RAF, hence this thread. ;)

And what I don't understand is that there are people who never actually fly these planes (probably never even tried to use them in proper combat) and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower. :-P

Actually, in the recent beta, it's a very nice and enjoyable plane. I personally like it a lot.

If you want to feel the frustration of the RAF lot, swap your 109 for a G.50 and fly 1 on 1 against some good Spitfire pilot :grin: (just joking of course)

I like the famous british humor :-D

People get defensive because there's an attitude on this forum that says that Axis pilots are just no-skill newbies who can only win because they have super planes. A lot of us are sick of it.

Who are these people going to fly their beloved spitfires against if all the axis pilots leave, which is seemingly what they want?

I haven't tried it in the new beta, but it used to be horrendous... like flying the Stuka except with worse climb rate.

On this forum, I thought you knew better Robo.........:rolleyes:

I took your advice Robo, yesterday I flew Spit Ia 100 octane, and I have to say that I really enjoyed:grin:! I got 16.80 kills and only died twice, due to collisions (more than once had to bail out, thanks to the Spit damage resistance). I do not feel that I would have been at a disadvantage. I have to admit it was just a dogfight server and not the ATAG, but you're recommending it;).

I flew it before the patch and shot down 3 reds. It was so slow they could not stay behind me and I went even slower... They stalled :)







Hmmm some people want accurate flight models and others want "balanced" FM's... this is interesting.

I'd also like to see the correct roll rates and other things.

Yeah I've seen you. ;) I suggested before you take a Ia and fight some good 109 pilots - which you didn't do at all :grin:

You took the 100 octane on the Blue side of the Repka server and I've seen you crawling on the deck with red spits. It's rather easy to be the only Spit on the blue side, picking the Spitfires that are involved in a fight with the Blue 109s and turn with them while they're being bounced. Very good tactics, I have no problem with that, just saying ;) You got some no-name pilots flying the Spitfires or 109s, turning on the deck. That is indeed a DF mince meat server with air-start and icons and any experienced pilot will do a lot of damage in such condition, no matter what he flies. You didn't get in fight with a single 109 flying higher up.

Yet, with lots of shared kills I've seen you bailing out or crash landing very often (that wouldn't happen to you so often in a 109 you know that ;)), I personally happened to attack you only 3 times, everytime you've seen me and tried to break but I had no problem to hit you hard (and I was flying the E-3, not E-4 with Minengeschoss) and you had to bale out immediately, so I am not sure about the Spitfire damage resistance). It can take some serious damage in the wings, I agree and I hope they will fix that at some point with the fuel tanks and other DM issues.

So again, get that Ia and fly some mid alt fights against good 109 pilot(s), chose Red when there are no 109s to help you and see how your K/D will be in that case. :grin: :grin: And try to do the same thing on a server with overheating ON, you'll cook your engine in no time. Just for the record - you can fly on Repka at 3000rpm all the time, but normally your limit is 2600 with slightly more for shor periods of time (like 2850 for few minutes) and that's it. The 109s though will fly same rpm on Repka on ATAG or anywhere because that's the way it is.

Lol I said 'good Spitfire pilots' :grin:

I haven't noticed this kind of attitude to be honest, all I know is that most of Axis pilots I know are very very good and they know what they're doing because they are usually flying more systematically and disciplined. I have many friends among what you call Axis pilots, I also fly the 109 very often myself and I know what it is capable of in good hands. I have great respect for every experienced virtual pilot and the truth is that there is lots of people like that, simply because many guys are flying sims for God knows how many years and they know how to fly and how to shoot. It is also quite obvious that Blue has got the better aircrafts at the moment and unless you're pushing your luck you won't get touched by the RAF if you do things right...

There are also many new pilots just learning how to fly, which is great as the community is growing and they also learn fast (no matter what they fly), so in the end it's quite difficult to find a 109 that doesn't know what to do on full real servers. Almost everybody is good enough to be a threat, especially so in the 109. So I don't quite understand where you're coming from with this 'no-skills newbies' stuff. Some of the best pilots I know are 109 jockeys, the reason being probably that once you're good you want a good ride, too. ;)

Because who is to say when absolute accuracy is achieved? So many sources all claiming differrent things & pilot accounts are terribly biased. However, from the data we can see some general characteristics emerge when the a/c are compared (i.e. Hurricane turning superiority, 109 dive acceleration, Spitfire/109 speed advantage at certain alts etc..). If the devs were to focus on getting the general characteristics of each type correct it would both feel historically accurate & have some balance. BoB is a very unique battle and those who have researched it would see there is near parity between forces, the Spitfire & 109 being a very close match with the Hurricane a not too distant third. Anyway, I think we can all agree the status quo of trying to get things right to the last mph while other major FM errors persist is not working.

...again, +1 mate!

Well, the Red FM's may be porked way beyond the pale, but let's look at the bright side of life: the negative g cutout on the Spits is fixed!!!! :)

And....possible bonus.....radiator air resistance may be modelled now. Just a rumour, mind you, no mention of it in the rather slim readme notes. :)

As it happens, I've also come across a yaw trim issue with canopy open at altitude. But it might've been me. Canopy open now causing drag? Could be.

It definitely was in 1.07, now in 1.08 it seems to be gone again :(

no only killing the fun, it completely killed the game for me. i'm not playing anymore recently. it's not just a matter of relative performance generally speaking, the worst is that the performance gap is most unfair when both red and blue have their E depleted and on deck, then the 109 can gain advantage over the Spit with ease, with just some silly small climbs, like that would have worked on RL (perhaps on WWI...)

JTDawg and I were trying it a little bit while flying Spitfire MK I (2-speed) last night (ATAG Server). I found closing the radiator by 50% increased the climb rate slightly = slight increase in IAS when level trim is applied. It was subtle, and we were testing this while we were shooting down 16.28 109's apiece, so we were slightly distracted.

OK, OK.......J/K everyone!!!!! (It was only 12 109's shot down apiece ;) )

Robo,

I think what Doggles was talking about was that most reds blame the aircraft fro not being up to scratch and consider flying a 109 "easy".

I have been on the recieving end of comments like "you only shot me down because the flight models porked!". - when the guy didnt even see me comming :rolleyes:

Was that you, Farbs? LOL

Okay, but if nobody flew the 109 because it's "untouchable" then who would the Allied guys fly against? AI?

Like it or not, Allied pilots need people to fly the 109 otherwise the online scene would collapse. Someone has to be the bad guy, but constantly being taunted gets old pretty fast. They just complain, complain, complain. Well, what are we supposed to do about it? Fly to Moscow and fix the flight models? Axis pilots are just as powerless as Allied pilots when it comes to getting the game fixed, but we're somehow on the receiving end of a lot of hate.

Yep, this is what I meant.

I've lost count of the number of times I spot a spitfire below me flying in a nice straight line and dive on him. I throttle down all the way to idle, because lots of cheaters fly around with their canopies open/jettisoned so that they can hear aircraft 500m behind them :rolleyes: I wait until I get to convergence and then open fire with all guns. He bails out and instead of "S~ Nice bounce" it's always something like "109 is a joke" or "fight like a man".

Sour grapes.

And how often have you lately succeeded in bouncing a 109 while in a Spitfire, sending it down in flames? And what words did you get when you did that?

Personally, I find weak opponents more annoying than strong ones, so if the poll question was "is the poor performance of RAF fighters killing the fun for Axis fighter pilots", I'd probably vote yes. But then, all this is secondary to my preference of historically correct performance, leaving the whole fun and balance issue to the mission maker.

please fix the G 50!!!! 484 km/h at 5,000 m historical max speed. in game i cant go faster than 410 leveled

Another good example of the attitude I was talking about. Nothing else matters because the Spitfire is undermodeled. Bad attitudes are acceptable because the Spitfire is undermodeled. This community is toxic. Thanks for perpetuating it, JtD.

Edit in case people still aren't clear: When JTD tries to turn around my comment by saying "how many times have you bounced a 109 flying a spit?" what he is doing is excusing peoples' bad attitudes and enabling their misbehaviour.

It's okay to be frustrated at the state of the FMs. It's not okay to take that frustration out of people who have no control over how the flight models are written.

i think is stupidity who killing the fun, just fly you'r favorite plane and not the best ingame...

i thook we are a mature community... :rolleyes:

Those 8 guns are really really devastating in the right hands, tweaked belt loads, convergence adjustments and piloting skills...I wouldn't want one on my tail.:)

I'm not excusing anything. But since you don't seem to be getting the message, here it is in plain text: Bad attitudes are found on both sides. You'd be more aware of that, if you didn't limit yourself to flying for just one.

Yeah, right.

You don't say?

But we're not talking about bad attitudes on all sides. We're talking about misdirected animosity directed towards 109 pilots, as if we're to blame for the crappy RAF FMs.

Tell me again how you log all my sorties.

Why do I get the feeling this simple thread is going to go the way of all the others?

Pretty pathetic really isn't it??

I think you are correct...

Good quote. Bears repeating.

I have a lot of respect for the 109 and the players who pilot them. I guarantee if there's a weapon in your aircraft's arsenal, and you know how to use it, you use it. They have nothing to be ashamed or repentant of in using the aircraft they've been given to the full extent of their ability to use it.

That said, I also have a lot of respect for the Spitfire and Hurricane pilots. Night after night they go back up in the air and attempt to make the best of their aircraft in the face of, let's face it, not the best of odds. That's kind of in the spirit of the Battle of Britain, I'd say. The people who are flying these aircraft are more than likely people who love these aircraft, who have a deep affection and reverence for the people who fought the real Battle, and who desperately want to be able to touch a small part of that experience.

I think it's in everyone's best interests to have a FM that 'feels' right first and gets as close as possible to the real numbers second. That's not a formula of exclusivity. It's a weighting. When you can read an account of a real pilot, try the same manoeuver, and get roughly the result you expect to get, that's 'feel'. We don't have that yet, but I'd like to get there.

Lastly, I don't doubt that getting all these figures right in a complex simulation is not an easy job. You mess with one thing and something you never thought was connected gets thrown off. Hurricane start-up anyone? I hope that the people who have to work on the FM are getting the support and time they need.

Well but no one is saying the 109 pilots should stop flying this sim because their ride is too good :grin: :eek:

The point I was trying to make was that every reasonable Axis pilot should be able to see and understand the frustration of the RAF pilots at current state of the FMs (which have nothing to do with Battle of Britain and so called real-life specs and for one reason or another are in huge favour of the Axis at the moment).

You have this sort of people on both sides, I suggest you simply ignore them. Sour grapes as you say...

I'd be careful with calling the ppl with open canopies 'cheaters', not all of them enjoy the sonar capabilities... Same goes for the 109 - some folks jettison the canopy as they take off, very interesting. :o

Well with all due respect Doggles, you really seem to have interpreted what he said in slightly wrong way, and you got very defensive again. There is no reason for that. ;)

There is no animosity towards 109 pilots in this thread, there are just these porked RAF fms (and the OP is addressing the devs, not the general 109 flying public).

To be honest, it's pretty obvious that you're strictly LW pilot, am I right? :grin::grin:

Most of the pilots with open canopies I've seen do it because the dot spotting is so bad. I open the canopy all the time to get a better view.

I know what you mean here, Farber. There are this kind of people who don't like losing and are always trying to find some excuse for their failure (virtual death that is lol). They're equally spread on both sides, too... and it's lame. Again, ignore.. It's not easy I know and very unfair. :-P There is lots of red (and blue) pilots who would S! you and say something like gs.

But on the other hand, when I fly the 109 and get a kill, I never know if I am really better than the other guy or if it's only mine and his ride. ;)

Yeah, I do that when I lose the 'dot' through the propeller (e.g. sun is behind me) but I don't have the ability to hear better at all! I've seen some videos on youtube where you could hear the DB 601 supercharger from miles away :o but that's not how my game works fortunately. I hear the hiss with canopy closed when we do close flyby, like headon pass, or more often, after I bounced him. That's why I believe it's a bit harsh to call all open canopy fliers 'cheaters'.

S!

Mostly a blue pilot but have now flown a few time with Spits and Hurris on ATAG. Shot down a few 109s (and got shot in return of course ;) ). No overheating issues, I could fly with the rated power all day long. Climb rates were enough to fight the 109 effectively. So I'll say "no". But generally all around FM improvements are ok of course.

Very good post mate, ATAG is a good example as there is lots of good pilots on both sides. If you don't mind me asking, which types exactly did you try and did you fly in current 1.08 beta?

Yeah I agree with this point. All the FMs need work.

I dunno. To me, it is cheating. There's no way in real life you would hear an aircraft behind you with a 1000+ horsepower V-12 roaring away in front of you.

I think the 109 guys who jettison their canopies are cheating too.

I guess it's a leftover attitude from IL2FB. Guys used to tweak their config files so they could hear aircraft behind them. It was BS.

Yes in the latest beta last week. If I recall correctly, I tried Spit MKII and its 100 octane version, Rotol Hurri and 100 octane version. Didn't see huge difference between the "normal" and 100 octane versions.

well, that's exactly the problem: the wings are the biggest target when deflection shooting, which is almost 100% the case in dogfighting against decent pilots. make one plane's wings pop-off even when only lightly touched, and make the other plane's wings resits to a meteorite fall.. and there you go.. a balanced fight :)

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..
- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

and remember, everything of the above with planes having approximately same energy. if the spit has more, then you'd better say your prayer..

and these were supposed to be 109's "hardware" strongest points.. if you'll go into a turn fight with a spit, then you deserve your funerary stele.

yet, I'm not the best blue pilot around, and my viewpoint might be slightly biased.

that's why I would only support historical data FM changes backed up by pilots constantly flying on both sides, or by the pilots from the other side (reds supporting blue FM changes, and viceversa).

and in the end, it is not about the machines, as it is about the people who flew them. the better pilot would win more often, no matter how crappy is the machine he's flying on :)

Yeah not a lot of folks here know the difference....

About the fragile 109 wing comment (at risk of being off topic). The 109 is a small plane (difficult to hit in the first place as a small target) with a small wing, so perhaps it is logical that ammunition hits on the Me 109 wing are more likely to cause serious damage than hits on a larger aircraft wing, such as the Spitfire. Just a thought.

Yeah, the ability to hear the engines with the canopy open is there. Guaranteed. It's not right and should be adjusted. Maybe if the enemy plane is 20ft off your six you'll hear something, but not much. Funny thing was, I thought they made this better in 1.07 but it seems to be back with 1.08?

One other thing I'd add to the list of unintentional cheats is the kill and damage info. That stuff should really be a server setting. When you've got a game that involves pilot kills and a detailed and sophisticated damage model, it's not right to give pilots ESP to know that their radiator has been perforated or that the level flying aircraft in front of them has a dead pilot in it after two bullets. Server side setting for this type of info would greatly enhance the full real servers, I think.

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that the Spitfire can actually do these things? I would like to congratulate you for teaching all the red pilots how to handle the Spitfire within a few goes at it because for the past year clearly everybody else has been doing it wrong. I'm mightily relieved that it's been my inadequacies all along and nothing to do with the FM itself. Thank you so much for teaching us all a lesson!!! :-P

1C, please take note and scrap any idea of making edits in the Bugtracker, we don't need a new patch after all because adonys has shown us that we're just rubbish pilots.:rolleyes:

Regarding wing damage for any plane;

Would have thought hitting the ammo belt/drums would have had seruous damage? Can imagin a 20mm goin off inside a wing would have blown it right off.

Agree on spit also, sometimes looks like there is no surface of the wing left but still flies otherr times it gets cut off in 1 hit. Something deffo not right there

I agree with the engine sound, it should be addressed asap. All I was saying that not every RAF pilot flying with canopy open is enjoying the advantage of the 'ClOD sonar'. I suppose it has something to do with the sound settings and / or the soundcard...

What you describe from Il-2 era is pathetic, but still no cheating per se. Cheating in flight sims is more like having different (better) FM than everybody else or having your guns 'tweaked', more or less based on altering game files. We had that before, I-16 climbing like MiG-15 - that is cheating. :eek:

People are people and some guys will always try to use every advantage possible in order to be succesful - do you remember the good old prop pitch macro exploit on the Bf 109. It was a nasty exploit but didn't involve anything that the game wouldn't offer anyway. Same with everything else - flying with canopy open, overusing the Erhoehte Notleistung, using Spitfire flaps to turn better or using 100% M-geschoss loadout. That is the same thing for me. Game should resctrict that because people will exploit it if they get the chance.

That is the case on non-historical 109 vs 109 fights. You are not very likely to saw the wing off with .303 (it is possible of course). Actually the 109 seems to be quite a tough bird from behind the Mk.I gunsight. I know you get all sorts of damage on your end but it seems it is not bothering you at all because you just keep climbing or running away like nothing happened. That's pretty OK with me actually. With the Spitfire wings it's the same - you think wow that was a good hit and the Spit just keeps flying and turning. Believe me or not, in fact he's struggling. Sometimes even small caliber fire makes huge damage regarding handling. The thing is that you just attack him again and finish him of, the Spit is not going anywhere unless you let him ;)

No it will not - if it does, you are doing something seriously wrong. You will be able to extend horizontally from any Spitfire at any altitude.

Nope. Especially the neg-G maneuveur is extremely effective. Of course, if the Spitfire pilot is any good he will not follow you into the steep dive, that would be very bad move. He will probably stay above you and attack you if you decide to climb again. If you play it smart though you can escape easily and surviving an enemy attack from your 6 is still win in my eyes.

This works superb, he will just stall below you. Immelman / hammerhead just before he does and he's done. That also requires a Spitfire pilot falling for that, obviously. There are suprisingly many...

This, I am afraid ;)

I agree, every fighter aircraft is just as good as it's pilot.

Yeah, very well. I was asking about this very thing at SEOW forums, but apparently it is not possible to switch these off on server side.