Speaking of Guns...
 

I'm thinking of buying one of Arsenal Inc's Saiga based AKs (either 47 or 74 - I haven't decided yet).

Has anyone here ever owned/fired one of these?

--Outlaw.

Dont own one nor have I fired one but a while back someone did a comparison video on youtube between the Arsenal and the Vepr. They also had a video shot at the range with some comments. You may want to take a look at those if you can find them. Might have been by CivilianTactical.

I do actually have experience with them and Ill tell you this: Not worth what they what for them.

Now the question is what do you want it for, just to own an AK or for a specific purpose?
A lot of times people overlook the simple WASR, but its just as much if not more of an AKM than the Arsenal.

Your best bet, buy the Saiga in the caliber you desire and convert it yourself. Ive done two of them. For the money you save you could buy a few thousand rounds to go with your new rifle, and have gained a lot of experience and know-how with the AK platform.

But again I ask what will the rifle be used for?
If its a SHTF gun, then 7.62x39. Its the round that all others are judged by on the modern battlefield.
If its just going to be a fun range toy then the 74 for sure. Ammo is STUPID cheap. I mean I stocked up on it a year ago and the price hasnt gone up at all. Only thing cheaper is 7.62x54R.
x39 is actually becoming hard to find on the cheap. I just bought my last 5000 rounds of the Yugo M67 ammo. It seems that the supplier says they will not be importing any more of it.

Aren't the Romanian AKs the way to go?

I haven't heard much good about any firearm coming from there, most of them were used with low military grade ammo, and the combination of corrosive powder together with the poor maintenance means they're all a bit knackered.. Then again considering that the last thing you need in an AK is accuracy beyond 100yds..

To be honest the only great thing about AKs are the gas system mechanism and the 7.62x39 ammo, other than that they're just cheapo ordinary assault rifles, which again, don't get me wrong, do their job fantastically :-)

An AR-15 with the AK gas recovery mechanism is probably a good compromise, but then again I've never been a huge fan of the .223 :-/

So, which country builds the best AKs?
The Chinese ones suck too, did the Yugos ever build them?


you could as well go for a SIG, they are precise but heavy. PITA if you ask me unless it's a commando version.

the ones coming from former Eastern Germany are probably the ones in best nick, they were looked after like only the Germans can and they're mostly former Russian.

SIGs are defo too heavy. Last time I went to Italy I tried a Car15 with the new picatinny style front barrel guard made by Oberland, beautiful gun but far too heavy for my taste :-(

I've never really fired any civillian version of these types of guns. But the main point about the AK's were their simplicity, lack of maintenance, and overall fireability. The old AK was fairly rock solid in the harshest of environments.

If I was to buy a civy version of a weapon with a 7.62 it would have to be something similar to a SCAR-H though. Sometimes we pull out the light arms at the range so things like the M4, SCAR-L and H, and occasionally foriegn confiscated weapons (AKs etc) that teams keep in their inventory. I wasn't really impressed with the AK, definitly not for an accuracy weapon. The sights are easy enough and the weapon is definitely fairly idiot proof, but nothing compared to the SCAR.

I also thought I heard the Romanian version was the way to go?

I think the no need for maintenance of AKs is surely a bit overrated, but it's true, you can leave them to themselves and they will keep on working, extremely simple guns but obviously not that accurate. Helluva fierce thing to use in close combat though!

oh, if we're talking about big assault rifles I'd rather stay classic (and classy) with my Garand M1.
30-06 calibre is by far the best compromise, it's a whole whopping kg lighter than the SCAR and keeps 8 rounds in its very sleek design, which means you can use it also on prone position without the magazine being in the way.
The M-14 is another lovely gun, and maybe more versatile than the Garand.

I haven't heard much good about Rumanian stuff, but never tried it myself. Even their version of the Dragunov is a bit crap.

No it's not overrated. We tried about everything with them in theater. They just plain almost always fire or can be made to fire very easily in the worst conditions.



I wasn't really talking about big assault rifles. Just something the OP started, wanting something with a 7.62 - aka SCAR-H. The only reason I mentioned heavy weapons is because I hardly get a chance to play with the light arms as I deal in 60mm mortors, Mk47's, M19's, Mk44, M2/M2A1 etc. and only bring out the small stuff when we are not just wasting ammo at the range.

Ask the guy that told you a Garand is 1kg lighter than the SCAR-H to give you your money back. :lol: the garand was a great rifle, (not assault rifle), back in it's time, but it's time pzssed 70 years ago. :P
The heavy scar weights 7.9lbs. A Garand around 10lbs. The scar is the lightest. 308 assault rifle out there and it has everything you would want from a modern weapon.
The Romanian AK's are not considered that good. They work like most other ak's, but the Russian and bulgarian are the best. From what I heared the Arsenal saigas are some of the most popular AK rifles this days. Quality at a good price.

Yes but they need cleaning and maintenance like any other rifle,that's what I meant. The mechanics are extremely simple and primordial,but it's still an highly effective gun for close combat,with a fantastic ammo.

Yeah I understand, but the .308 is not on the same level of the 7.62x39, that's what I meant :-)
Never used the SCAR personally, but I heard about some issues with the bolt and extractor?

Sorry,my memory is starting to fail me, a Garand is roughly 9.5lbs, although I bet that a modern, battle ready, SCAR-H with all modern gizmos like front knob grip, ACOG, light etc.. is not much lighter, and the M-1 still has a sleeker design and a better range. As per your age remark, the M-14 is the 50 years old evolution of the M-1, and it's still widely used by sharpshooters in the Army, Marines etc... Stuff like polymer stocks and lightened components gave a new life to an already solid design.

Never tried a Bulgarian, but their gunsmithing is quite good, so it wouldn't surprise me if so were their AKs.

Every time I think about getting an AK I always seem to find something better to spend my money on. Currently they are over priced for their technology level, IMHO.

Back when I was competing in NRA type service rifle matches I had the chance to shoot 4 different platforms over the years. I started with an 1896/38 Swedish Mauser because it's all I had at the time. Then a buddy lent me his Springfield M1A (civilian version of the M 14). I then got my M1 Garand from the DCM, then finally ended up with a Rock River Ar 15 DCM National Match.

At long range (600 yards) the M1 Garand was peerless. I shot my best 10 shot string of my whole life with that rifle. Overall however, my scores went up about 20% (yup) when I switched to the AR platform. At close ranges (100 to 300 yds) it gave up nothing to the M1 and in the rapid fire portions of a match is was far far superior.

I enjoyed that old Swedish Mauser more than any of them though. Still have all of them too.

I'd love to have the SCAR H in 7.62x51, but I cannot justify the money for one now as my long gun shooting is all but done.

I politely disagree!
If anything I think the AK's reputation for reliability and ease of use/maintenance can not be overrated. Ive pulled these things out of Iraqi irrigation ditches, kicked open the bolt, locked, loaded and fired without issue. And these things had been in the mud so long that the stock had rotted away, and that's saying a lot for laminated wood!
The accuracy does leave a bit to be desired by western standards, but overall its acceptable for an assault rifle. Add to that the sheer power advantage of the x39 and ability to penetrate light cover and I would much rather have it than the 5.56.

Perhaps you can explain the garand thing to me. I loath the platform. Seriously it feels like I'm shouldering a 4x4 fence post. Nothing like a nice sleek 98K or even a Mosin-Nagant. Overall I'm not a fan.

As to the Romanian stuff it has gotten much better in recent years. The Romanian G kit is the kit by which all others are judged for your own home built gun, and the WASR series of rifles are much, MUCH better than they used to be. Canted sights and terrible mag wobble are a thing of the past. Add to that a whopping $400 price out the door (in a free state anyway, not here in the peoples republic of kalifornistan). Even the little Draco's are a nifty little gun. Surprisingly accurate at 100 meters for such a short AKM. Nearly my favorite pistol-nearly.

The PSL that you mention actually has nothing to do with the Dragunov. Its a DM weapon yes, but the construction is unrelated. Its based off of the RPK receiver with the heavier trunnions. The biggest thing going against it is the barrel-long and skinny. Mine has a tendency to climb due to barrel whip during quick bursts, but nothing dramatic. Again perfectly acceptable for a 400 meter rifle. If you actually take slow, deliberate shots with it it is surprisingly accurate even with the surplus ammo flooding the market right now. With handloads and slow fire Ive actually watched someone pull off a 1.5 MOA group pretty easily with the platform.

If I lived in a free state Id probably buy two WASR's and a boat load of ammo for the price of an Arsenal. not to mention Arsenal has, in the past, taken strong stances against the 2nd amendment and heavily discriminated against certain states, to the point of taking retailers to court for selling their product to California regardless of the legal nature of the transactions.

Oh man youve been lied to!

I suppose it depends on what you mean by Quality and good price.

A quality weapon would not have a finish that peels off, which is something bordering on common with Arsenals.
Then the good price thing. I just cant agree with ya there. Think of it like this. Arsenal takes a $350 Saiga (which they get for about $280, the last time I looked at RSR wholesale anyway that was the dealer price), adds a new trigger mechanism and does the butstock/front end conversion.

I did this myself for less than $200. But arsenal wants to charge up to and over $1000 for their rifles? insanity. They change nothing about the gun other than cosmetics. Heck I can talk someone through a conversion or just point them to a step by step website that will show you how to do it. Save yourself $500 bucks for ammo and other rifles.

gootta love those who didnt lose contact with their inner child ;)

http://media.salon.com/2011/02/dont_...ns-460x307.jpg

..why don't you stick to your threads instead of trolling on others' as well? :confused:

yep sorry couldnt avoid it wont participate again in thi thread since have nothing to say about it

LOL, nice one Raaaid!

you're missing my point. I know they will shoot even in the worst conditions, but no maintenance will still do them no good. And yes, the AK ammo is the best in its range, big fat bullets that can knock through a lot more than the flimsy 5.56..

IMHO as a semiauto rifle it's probably one of the best designs ever. It can be a bit heavy, but composite stocks and special straps make it still very portable and above all dead accurate. It's only 10cm longer than a SCAR-H, but this means it burns the 30-06 powder all the way and gives it an effective range of 450yds (I've seen folks with M-1D sniper hitting gong targets at 1000yds).
The sleek design means that you have no annoying magazine under, and the 30-06 is far superior to the .308.
Don't know why you're comparing it to bolt action rifles though, they are designed and meant to be used in a different way.
I have a K98 with ZF-41 and that is by far one of the best bolt action rifles ever. Forget about the Russian Mosin-Nagant crap, the Mauser bolt action is one of the smoothest, safest and most perfect things ever.
I have an Enfield No.4 T as well, and despite being considered the best sniper rifle of WW2, I can't come to terms with the action, but it surely is a dead accurate gun.

well yeah, it's still Rumanian junk IMHO. If you want a good modern sniper rifle you need to look at Tikka or Remington (the 700 Police is just a perfect platform), they're not cheap, but man what fantastic, simple, precise guns they are!

Damn, you are right about the prices. Last time I checked, quite a while ago, arsenals used to sell under $700. Anyway, I can just look and droll, since anything that looks, smells, or sounds like AK is prohibited up here.

CA?

Yeah.:(

dude, it sucks, but you still had one of the best governors in history... GET TO THE CHOPPAAAAA!!!!! GET DAUUUN!!!! ;)

as per the AKs, not even the semiauto only are allowed?

Bringing out the inner child ....

http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-con...schoolgirl.jpg

I mean "Ca" as in Canada.:)

Ive actually got a bet going with the wife on this. I havent cleaned/maintained any of my AK's for the last 2 years, and I bet I can go 5 without having issues. She thinks 3 years.

Obviously not the right thing to do, but hey even after 2, no maint, and thousands of rounds of com-bloc surplus they still run like champs! All Romainian too, except for the Saiga conversions.

For certain accurate, but the round is frankly obsolete. .308 can be loaded to duplicate and exceed 30-06 performance and its starting to dry up in a bad way. There is a lot to be said for arming yourself with a current caliber.
My biggest complaint about the garand isn't the weight, Ive been a 240 gunner and a mortarman so this rifle isn't going to drag me down! Its the shape. I mean its just...awkward! To me anyway. I mean I seriously just can not get into a comfortable position with the garand.

And whats this about M.N. crap! I happen to love the platform, for the same reason i appreciate all Russian guns-simplicity and form that follows function.
My 1915 Peter the Great M.N. will shoot just as well as any of my mausers, and after a thorough cleaning (I'm talking DAYS to get the near 100 years of gunk out) the bolt is very smooth.
Only thing that really gets me on the M.N. is feeding it. You go to push the rounds into the mag and before you bottom out there is this ledge on the side of the receiver that can tear your thumb nail off!

Ive never had the opportunity to shoot an Enfield, but it is quite a fetching platform. If I could ever find a reasonably priced Ishapore Enfield in my area Id be on it like a fat kid on cake.


Well your comparing apples to automobiles here. Neither the PSL or the Drag are sniper rifles by western standards, they are more akin to a designated marksmans rifle, more comparable to a scoped GI M-14. Performance wise they are pretty similar.

I see that your from Canada. That sucks (as far as guns go). Even in California we can own Ar/AK platform rifles.

You know what surprises me though is the seemingly common nature of the SVT-40 up there. Here they are like Hens teeth, and can cost thousands of dollars. Ive spoken to Canadians who bought their 5-round magazine SVT's for $400. Id do terrible things to own an SVT.:cool:

EDIT: And if your going to talk actual sniper rifles, dont forget Savage! They consistently win competitions here with out of the box stock rifles, going against custom Rem/Tikka variants.

EDIT 2: Misread-jaws is out of Canada-my mistake!

You owe it to yourself to get an Enfield or 4. Slickest bolt action ever, even if not the strongest.

I have everything from a Long Lee up to a 1950 Long Branch, and a 2A1 Ishapore. The WW1 No.1 Mk.III is my favorite though. The old axiom about WW1 rifles really is true. The Germans had the best hunting rifle (98 Mauser), the Americans had the best target rifle (03 Springfield), and the British had the best battle rifle.

Yay Lee Enfields forever here are mine:)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...64/rifles3.jpg

with a couple of ringins as well.

I've always worked on the premise that one Lee Endfield was all a man ever needed! Ever!

I was obviously mistaken! ;)

Here's my baby!

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/...m/P7280012.jpg

My only problem with the rifle that I don't get a chance to use her as much as I would like!

I feel a trip to the bush is in order.

Very nice Skoshi, and nicely arranged on the Aussie flag. At least, hopefully the flag and not a giant sized beach towel.

But wait, are IvanK's guns arranged....on a giant Soviet flag!!?? :-P

"3 Ohs" are just gorgeous :) .... you can never have enough.

No its not a Soviet flag :) .. though I was looking at a Mosin Nagant sniper this afternoon. The owner assured me it was fair dinkum ... but alas I think it was dodgy.


What year is yours Skoshi ? interesting with the tag on the but and the Full foresight protectors.

Sorry but I have to admit it, it is a beach towel! :)

lovely collection IvanK! Couple of questions for ya:

1) Which version is the T?
2) Is that a genuine Jungle Carabine? Man I never tried one but always wanted to, bet it kicks like a mule!
3) What k98 is that? I have a BCD 42 and the Byf 43 (with ZF-41 rail).

1924 Lithgow. Matching serials on the reciever, bolt, stock and forewood. It's a No1 marked as a MkIII*. It has the slot on the right hand side for the magazine cut-off which from my limited reading was reintroduced in the inter-war period.

Interestingly the woods been stamped for the 3rd miltary district (Victoria) and then over struck with the 4th (South Australia) (Both the victorian 2nd/14th and the South Australian -2nd/27th served on the Kokoda Track alongside my Dad's battalion. So you never know it could of been up that way.)

even corrosive ammo? :shock:

The Garand is best used with sling techniques. Web or leather slings as you probably know can be used to do the steady shooting with no support other than your own body. How you mean you can't get comfortable with it? If anything I find it very comfortable, from the iron sights to the feel. It might be a matter of different experiences, I personally never felt too comfortable/confident with M-16/Car15, go figure!

Well IMHO they've been built and assembled by blind drunken monkeys.. they quality and finish is never up to the standards of other similar rifles, the safety is a joke, the feeding is a pain, the bolt design is terrible and not particularly safe.. Perfect rifle for a mass war, cos it's cheap as chips and easy to produce and it (mostly) spits bullets out of the right end, but no, they're nowhere near the quality of a K98 or a Springfield.

They're weird guns those Enfields: on paper they should be crap (stock that is bolted to the rest of the rifle, barrel completely covered by wood), but they're quite good, and the bolt action is surely a peculiar one, a bit delicate if you ask me, but very fast and smooth. Worth the experience :-)

well the Dragunov was designed as a marksman gun actually.

hehehe yeah I'm Italian but living in the UK, it's a real nightmare here, and not because of what you can't have, it's the mentality that is just absurd.. but anyway I go back to Italy often enough to shoot regularly.

I have only two SMLE MkIII*, both from 1917, and one of them is probably one meant for the Bantam battalion, which had a slightly shorter buttstock (a pair of inches). Lovely gun, the bore has seen better days, but all in all it's worth it.

The T is a No4MK1T all matching numbers, and came in the original wooden crate. Shoots like a dream. Though I am very sparing with this one perhaps only 10 rounds a year through this Gem.

The Jungle Carbine No5 rifle is indeed a genuine one. They are getting a little scarce nowadays but still available. Kicks like a mule and true to the history shoots like crap :) ... but you have to have one.

The KAR98 was made in 1944 with German Waffenamts markings etc but also a "Preduzece 44" re build. So its German origin but Yougo refurb.

What? Even the ozzies can have guns? Britiain is so lame... :rolleyes:

I wanted to get a black powder baker rifle but even that comes under a fire arms certificate... Smooth bore just wouldn't be the same, also I cant find anyone selling a baker with a rifled barrel... I'd love a enfield or a K98... You lucky gits. So much jealousy...

Thanks to everyone for the info.

I ended up getting the Arsenal 7.62x39. I know it's a bit expensive for what it is but, I have the disposable income and I don't have the time to do the build myself so it was a no brainer. The WASRs had massively varied reviews for quality so I stayed away from those. I considered a Bulgarian AK but figured why not go with a real Russian model since I can?

I spread the word around work and six of us ended up getting one. Picked up a few 30 round mags for $14 each at the gun show and I just ordered 1000 rounds of ammo (only $235!!!!) so I'm good to go for the next few years!

I hope to get it sighted in this weekend.

Thanks again to everyone who pitched in.

--Outlaw.

Have you tried Henry Kranks in Pudsey? I'm sure I saw a rifled Baker in the catalogue. Othrwise, Gary at Derbyshire Arms will get you one.

Post up a range report!
Thing about AK's is they replicate in your gun safe, I started with one, now I'm up to 5. Even build my AR's to fire x39. An insidious addiction!

AH THANKS!

http://www.derbyshirearms.co.uk/

Damn, £1000.00!

Didnt see one at Kranks. Wait what? They sell enfields and k98 at Kranks?

Weez can haz riflez? :confused:

Thought you'd be interested by this one :
http://haveblue.org/

(3D printed MG) ;)

You can have a military rifle if you have somewhere to shoot it...

I fired the Arsenal AK last weekend and it shot as well as I expected. I started from the kneeling position at around 25 yards and it was about a 5" group dead center right out of the box. There was a paper target in the box with a 3 short group (about 3") that noted 25 meters so that's why I started about there.

My buddy has the adjustment tool and he cranked down on the front post what he claimed was the correct amount for hitting the berm from his back porch (yeah, I hate him a little bit for having a gun range in his back yard). Another group from the standing position at about 75 yards and it was, once again, dead on so I guess he knows his AKs (he has 3).

I fired about 50 rounds total before moving to my DPMS .308 and I was pleased with the performance. It's a really nice rifle for short range work. It is expensive, but, it's a real Russian AK and that's what I was looking for.

--Outlaw.

Kinda sad it's no longer easy to get some of the OG russian AKs(some cz ones are okay, but still pretty rough. I've used to order those just as "parts" for mine). Picked up a few good guns from https://gritrsports.com/guns/ - mostly used ones, gonna either repair or use some parts for my builds.