Level Bombing: Tests and results with 1.08.18956
 

Let me just transfer here what i was discussing on the ATAG forum, for the benefit of all sim pilots who fly the He-111 and the Ju-88.

I'm just describing a simple airstart mission that i used for testing, flying the Ju-88 in a bomb run with the autopilot in R22 mode (the level attitude hold mode). Bonus track file at the end of the post ;)

Get the track file from the link below, just unzip into Documents\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\records

Then, you can load the track from inside the sim and observe how the bombs drop and how the lighter ones lag behind the heavier ones.

This is great. This fix alone is going to make a good number of players happy. The extremely limited visibility distance for the ground objects may be a problem. I did a few quick bomb r7ns yesterday with the Ju88 and I noticed you can't see any buildings from 2000m. It is going to be hard to find targets for level bombing this way.

The devs should make it possible for map builders to set markers (i.e. black dots) on targets wich should have a visibility range of about 15 to 20km to nullify the disadvantage of too late visible targets.

To be honest with you, as long as i can navigate reasonably well i have no problem putting bombs on target. And i fly on mostly medium graphics settings too.

The thing we need is for mission design to move to strategic objectives. It's one thing to look for a tank column (10 dots in a street running among the woods) from 6km of altitude and a totally different thing to simply have to recognize a city and target its industrial area.

Tactical bombers like the Stuka can maneuver and identify the area where the targets are expected before diving (plus they can correct their aim during the dive), fighter bombers as well.

The difficulty comes from having to maneuver a formation of twin-engined bombers all around the place, while looking for a few vehicles. And the reason that targets are handled like that is that until now we had no way to determine if objectives are completed without having some units to be destroyed. It's the old IL2 trick of hiding trucks inside buildings: the game had no way of knowing if the buildings are destroyed, so mission designers made the targets to be units and hid them inside the buildings.

Since the last beta however, some scripting methods have been added that let us determine objective completion in other ways, more suited to formation bombing. This means that instead of the target being "destroy these static vehicles", the target could now be "place that much explosives within a certain radius of this point".

This means we can have buildings as targets. And for such targets of a certain size, this also makes it very easy to bomb from altitude. We just have to navigate there, look through the bombsight and identify the target by other landmarks. The nearby city, the airfield next to it, the bend in the river, etc. This is more or less how the crews back then did it as well. I saw a US air force bomber's manual and it places a lot of emphasis on pre-briefed landmarks around the target to be used as a way to identify it.

I'm not saying i will complain if i can see an isolated factory building from 4km, of course not. But i still feel that even if the building pop-up is improved, we will have to do some planning before going into raids or be familiar with the target area.

Which to be honest with you, is half the fun when flying bombers. Selecting the correct waypoints to come in undetected, having a flight path over the target that makes for a favorable orientation (eg, attacking an airfield across its runway length for maximum damage), egressing along the route of least resistance, etc etc :grin:

For example, i was on ATAG a little while ago and i started for the Manston area. Just as i was closing in, a server message came up saying that both of the nearby targets were destroyed. I didn't want to turn back and the other available targets were tactical in nature, so i just decided to attack the Ramsgate runway.

I came in at 4km, aimed the bombs smack in the middle of the runway and went home with no incident whatsoever. I don't know if and what hits i scored because i was too high to look, but if half of them fell within the airfield and any RAF pilots were CAPing around the area at low level, it would have been a real laugh to watch :-P

That is friggin' awesome :cool:

Oh yes it is. You can't imagine the look on my face when i was watching the track and realised what was happening.

"Hmmm, a bunch of almost concurrent explosions. Ooops, here come some late explosions further back. Maybe it's the bug i've been hearing about. Hmmm, the ones that popped first are the big explosions, they must be the 250s. OH MY GOD, THEY DROPPED LAST AND EXPLODED FIRST, THERE IS ONLY ONE EXPLANATION FOR THIS" /jaw meets floor :-P

Just watch the attached track and enable manual view control. If you go to zoom in view and look down beside the wing (i also moved the camera sideways a bit to get a better view), you can see for yourself.

I think i'll do a second track tomorrow with a static camera on the airfield, so that i can observe more closely ;)

GREAT!!! , i just tried it and i hit a bus from 4 k. with a 111 thank you!!! now i can know where my bomb will hit :grin: :grin: :grin:

I did lengthy tests and came up with medium-to-high settings for my, at best, medium rig, to ensure that everything runs smoothly while having it look as good as possible.
And I had never problems with identifying targets from altitude, except when the targets themselves are very small - for ex. I never figured out where exactly those ammo dumps/storage areas were on that one ATAG objective.
Well, that's what I thing Blackdog is up to: Handing the strategic, bigger objectives to the level bombers while leaving the small ones to tactical bombardment.

redroach do you know what options affect the ground target visibility? i know that land detail render far away ground textures in more detail and it help navigation but have no clue about how th other options affects ground target, S!

Here about it I wrote to developers about need of implementation for game of a photo reconnaissance.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthrea...=1#post1845441

Does the building pop-up introduced this patch also effect the bombsight? I haven't played bombers yet since the patch, but notice the buildings do what the trees did last patch.

German Bomb Sight
 

Someone please explain the numbers on the Y axis (where u can change the arrow) and the X axis which you cant control?

Need help!

Sorry for bad English.
If I understand correctly, you write about the demolition of the lateral plane, and how to calculate the X-axis in the crosshairs "Lofte"

may be it will help you: http://kg55.mybb2.ru/viewtopic.php?p=1930#1930

Do you mean the triangle indicators?

The Y-axis (upper left side) is the angle of your bombsite.
The X-axis (lower, right side) does not function.

This bombsite is the same system used in IL-2:1946.....there are many great resources for IL-2:1946 to explain the basic system of the site. I suggest searching under "Level Bombing" at Mission4Today.com. At least it is a start.

Cheers
 

Yea ill shall check out mission 4 today later on!!! Thanks Kaiser and Marmusman.

Just to see if anyone can explain:
How do you work out the bombing angle :S

Regards
Ross

Even if Loft may sound familiar to our native english speakers, the Lotfernrohr doesnt have anything to do with a loft.. ;)

I understand you correctly,
The exact adjustment taking into account the flow of wind?

You're damn right! I always wondered what a "Lofte" is... :rolleyes:
It's LotFe (with or without the caps)!

As for the other things: Yeah, a photo recon system would be awesome! This would be, as a not-that-skilled dogfighter, my second priority, after bombing! :D

And sorry, I don't know the specific options for "best" ground visibility, nor do I even know if my settings are "best" in that department. I just tested and went after a good-looking, non-stuttering game. But I'll edit my overall settings in here when I'm online the next time.

+1


Regarding recon, what we do in our squad is to send some 109 to recon the target and bring back photos. We takes it seriously and if the recon gets downed, we do not look at the photos :P

Lot =perpendicular
Fernrohr= telescope

S!

Sounds quite good to me, but I, as a fighter pilot, would like to ask for your opinion about that visibilty or better say draw distances. Is it okay? I mean: 4k is not a real big height for level bombing, or is it? I remember, that we bombed from 7k to 9k in il2. So, how is vdrawing distance compared to il2 1946? 4 km is not enough on a pc sim to really simulate the visibility distance of real life. The game should always draw several kilometers more than in real life to have nearly the same viewing abilities as in real life.

4km is not enough, or am I wrong. I remember that discussion of some good pilots years ago with il2 1946. We need about at least 10 to 15 km to simulate, what eyes can see (mostly peripher or instinctively ) in a real plane as monitors are not giving u the same as in real life.

Just ask for opinions and answers. Levelbombin at a sunny day on 4 or 5 km sounds strange and very dangerous to me as this is in the normal height range of fighter pilots.

I suppose a quick fix to this would be the mission builder adding photos to the briefing... err, can photos be added to the briefing?

For bombing in Il-2:1946, the draw distance and target acquisition were always an issue. Luckily, there were "target items" placed using FMB (usually trucks or ships) that would appear as an odd dot or strange "mirage" in the bombsite from far away, so you always had a guide for locating targets. The good mission builders would always add one of these indicators within the target area, even if the item was not the main intended target.

I have not had enough time at high altitude in a bomber to see if the same applies in CloD. Though I seem to recall seeing odd "mirages" at target areas when flying a Bf-109 at high altitude.

Yes. captured image gets into briefing only when the spy plane returned to the base.
P.S.
That is, if the plane was shot down, then the photo is lost.

Sorry what I meant is right now, can mission builder put photos into briefing?

So, just to be clear, what does the R22 mode actually do? Does it simply level the wings at whatever heading you happen to be flying along? Or dos it direct you to a course you set into the course setter?

If the former, does it allow you to make slight heading corrections?

Before now, i've been using the non-R22 course autopilot to try to do level bombing, using corrections in the course setter to shift course onto target. But the course setter is to coarse, and you can't make fine adjustments, meaning you're wobbling bak and forth as you approach the target...

The R22 mode is a three axis autopilot, but its set to 330 to 350 km/h so the plane descends until the speed is reached.
Because of the too low speeds / power of the bombers you'll have to correct for a descent all the time.
Course corrections are made with autopilot right or left, precise enough.

At the moment seems to be no, but I could be wrong,
need to ask the organizers of the mission.

So it works but doesnt work?..... in the ideal world we should be able to use the R22 at any speed?

How do you use it either way?

I downloaded the manual, very interesting but it doesnt tell you how to calculate the bomb angel by yourself...

... suggestions?

thats why my plane decends with the R22 mode
thanks ROBTEK
by the way you can trim always with the course and loft your bombs

A little side program from IL-2:1946....

Download from M4T at:
Bombsite Table v2

This was based on estimates....not sure how accurate in CloD.

It can run in background....I used to have 2 monitors, so I would have this program up on one screen and fly on other screen. The key commands to adjust speed and height work while in game. But in the end, you find that you typically bomb from the same height and speed so you can get the angle prior to your flight if you are afraid to Alt-Tab out of game to see table.

You can certainly use a different programs, but it's for "Loftenfernrohr Lofte" is superfluous.
"Lofte" very easy to use, it is sufficient to know only one parameter (AGL or TAS), that would correct all the rest.
So with the help of Bombenfernrohr can determine the angle of drift, but unfortunately the servers is rarely used atmospheric effects.
I also use the scope "Lofte" on final approach in stormy weather.

no explanation needed here, I am from Germany as well (look to the right!) ;)

and once again: Lotfernrohr! 8-)

How, then, properly called Bombenzielgerät -"Lofte" or "Lotfe"?

Of course 'LotFe' rnrohr.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1344431909 ???

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1344432475






Can you clarify this issue, that there was no disagreement?

While he has compiled a pretty nice website, that webmaster of LuftArchiv.de obviously made an error, which has propagated through the interwebs (or probably it was someone else and he just adopted it...).
There is no word like 'Loften' in German - and, additionally, klick on my link above. The original box should be proof enough, I think! :cool: (whoever is tempted to use the word "photoshopped" now, be ready to face my wrath! ;) )

i'm pretty sure that the right word begin with Lotfe not lofte
i think Redroach is right

Thank you! I will definitely pass this amendment Russian-speaking community.
PS
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthrea...=1#post1878299

Auto-pilot course adjust the aircraft using the aileron, R22 uses the rudder - use this when on level bombing run.

Note Robtek's comment about speed. I find if you accelerate to 310-20kmh then apply R22 you can get a reasonable result - less than 1m/s sink rate.

Also take into consideration your loadout - fuel and bombs. Heavier load - more sink rate. Which is a big issue considering under-performance of aircraft (see Robtek's recent comment).

Suggest you also checkout the JU88 Tutorial thread at the ATAG forum.

Above comments (re speed 310-20) for JU88.

what about 111
it has low speed compare to ju-88

But, He111 better glider, than a Ju 88.

Ju88 needs at least 320-330km/h IAS before you engage R22. The He-111 can do fine with 300-310km/h IAS.

R22 is a level attitude (not altitude) hold autopilot. That doesn't mean level flight, it means wings and fuselage at a 0 degree angle with the horizon. If you are high, at low power or heavy, the plane doesn't have enough "oomph" to stay level and keeps descending slightly.
The purpose of it all is to ensure that the bombsight is level with the ground below.

As for the rest, it functions like the course autopilot: which way to turn is governed by the difference between what your gyrocompass and your selected heading indicator display.

The difference is that in course mode the turns are banking and made with ailerons, while in R22 they are wings level turns and made with rudder.
This allows you to make slight adjustments when nearing the target. Slight means slight though, over-correct and the drag from making a rudder-turn with opposite aileron (to keep the wings level) results in big drops in airspeed and altitude which take a while to stabilize ---> it can ruin your bomb run if you try to turn more than 5-10 degrees at a time.

As for how accurate it is, i have mapped the AP left/right commands to my < and > keys. Whenever i want to adjust, i just tap ONCE or twice and let it settle. The trick is to be familiar with the area you are bombing and settle into it from quite a few kms out. Doing heavy last minute adjustments will mess up the stability of your bomber and the accuracy of your run.

You don't have to do it yourself. The reason the guide on M4T lists this method is that in Il2:1946 most people were using the bombsight table application that gave you the angle and this allowed them to drop parts of their bombload over spread out targets. People would dial in their IAS and altitude and the application would display TAS and bomb release angle. Then, you just set the sight at that angle and press your stick key when a target passed under the cross, then pressed again when the next target appeared under the crosshairs, etc.

This worked well in Il2:1946 but it is all backwards and not how it was usually done in the real world(apart from very low level runs with predetermined settings, eg B-25s in the pacific with parafrags).

It is also unnecessary in CoD. With the extra settings we have, we can choose exactly which bombs we will drop and from which bomb bay. So, if you are fast enough you can disengage automation, place the crosshairs on a new part of the target, reengage it and select a different set of bombs to drop. It is more work, but it's also highly unrealistic even if you achieve it.

The whole "multiple targets in one run" philosophy was because in Il2 we didn't have suitable area effect targets and too few people bombed (apart from special online events). We had to place units on the target as "hit counters", which then gave rise to another problem: low altitude fighter-bombers and dive bombers found it too easy to destroy them if they were clustered together because of their better accuracy or rockets. So, mission designers had to spread out the static units and level bomber pilots had to resort to manual bomb release with the predetermined bomb release angle method.

With CoD we have ports, cities, airfields and some new scripting commands that can simulate area bombing. So, instead of trying to hit 4 tanks bunched up here and 4 tanks bunched up there along the road, we can simply be historical and aim at targets the size of a few adjacent building blocks.

So, the way to do it now is enter TAS and altitude above ground into the sight and engage automation. Then, watch through scope. If a point on the ground is moving down on your screen faster than the crosshairs increase TAS, if the crosshairs moves faster than the target then decrease TAS.
Once both move down at the same rate you'll see that the crosshairs stays on a specific piece of ground. Adjust the sight up/down to correct your aim, if during your adjustments your crosshairs went off the target.

Then, repeat the same for any drift due to wind, asymmetric thrust or incorrect trim. We already took care of up/down motion (speed calibration), so if an arbitrary point on the ground is moving to the right of the crosshairs, adjust the sight to the right as well (in the direction of the drift, not opposite of it) and observe if the new ground feature under the crosshairs remains stationary. Repeat as necessary until whatever is under the crosshairs is not moving relative to the crosshairs.

The idea is that since the drift is to the right, we want the sight to show our impact point. Moving it right an equal amount spoils our aim but shows us where the bombs will fall. Then we can use the autopilot to turn and place it on the target again.
The process is similar for left drift, always adjust the sight INTO the drift, not against it.

Once all is set up, you just arm your bombs, open the bays and wait. Just remember to take a peek at your instruments every 30 seconds or so and correct for the altitude drop due to the R22 mode.