realistic joystick
 

I use the saitek x52 and find it great, but I wonder is there a 'realistic' stick out there? Or is there one coming? With SOW imagery, I would imagine Saitek or one of the leading makers might take the initiative to get a replicated stick (or two) on the market.

Beat me to it IvanK :wink:

I'm going to break into their factory and steal one sometime :lol: j/k

It kind of bugs me that they charge so much for their products...I don't think its reasonable.

$1214 to get the basic set-up? ...and $1865 if you want the throttle too??

That just seems like too much money, I wish they would offer something more reasonable. I just don't see how the development and manufacture cost could justify that kind of price...haven't they heard of outsourcing work to China?

We gave up the idea of adding the development cost to the price of our Universal Base ... It would double it's price ...
It's hand manufactured nearly for nothing , in France . It's a real replica , not a rough copy .
Don't try to compare it to another joystick .
It's the most expensive , yes , but simply the best .
Everyone makes it's choice .
You can content yourself with an ordinary joystick , vaguely accurate . (and buy another one , one or two tears later)
Or buy the ultimate accuracy and reliability ....

Everyone makes it's choice ...
I've done mine , and I'm not the only one .

C6_Trollbug
member of the Tarmac Aces Team

C6_Trollbug

I am curious to the status of the glider attachment to the universal base, is it out yet?

I'm currently involved in specifying a high level glider simulator for club usage in Denmark (Stewart platform, working panel and collimated wide angle display).

http://www.herningsvaeveflyveklub.dk it's in Danish, sorry :-|

Your products seem to be what we are looking for.

cya around

I wish they were a bit cheaper i would definatly get one looks so cool ( I know checky ****, if i had that amount of money i would be learning to fly right now :D)


Seriously if i had the money i would be ordering one right now :(

sorry double post

ooowwweeee....$$$$$:( surely there is a cheaper option??

If anyone reading this thread has bought one, please share your thought's about them...and how you make your living :-P

Expensive? Yes...and yet...
 

If you consider only the basics (stick + base) this is 780 euros.

This is also the price for:

- 3/4 of minimum monthly netto wages in France, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 average wages (in France)

- the price of a ski week in a lowly resort

- 6 flight hours of a DR400 (7 or 8 out of Paris)

- 1 EOS450D photo camera (Rebel XSi for the other side)

So it is very relative like Trollbug said...don't you think? Oh, by the way those prices include french VAT 19,6%, someone from outside Europe can find a way to pay less I suppose!

One day, I will purchase one...

JV

PS: Believe me, I do not think Tarmac Aces would ever consider making a living at these prices...this is a product somewhere between handicraft and semi industrial stuff, and the quantities would not allow outsourcing casting and other stuff in Asia (a mold is expensive even there!); one cannot compare to Saitek...the choices and objective are totally different and the Saitek of this world would not even try to pull this off, there is just no possible profit for them there...

Or just go out and buy a CH fighterstick for £100/150 Euros. Does not look as good but will last a looooooooooong time. I love your sticks C6 but the cost is just far to much for most people to even consider.

Redwulf , the glider stick pattern is almost ready to be molded . It will soon be available .
At the Montelimar's meeting , some civilian pilots in the real life , and some fans of "Condor Soaring" tried the Universal Base (with my KG13b) , they were enthusiastic about its accuracy and it's "realistic feeling" .

Yes the Fighterstick is not a bad joystick (if you change its pots regularly) , but it can't definitively be compared to the Tarmac Aces Universal Base : it's not a long lever arm central position stick , it doesn't have a mechanical system wich reproduces the inertia of the flight control rods , it returns to the center when you release it , and it doesn't have high grade Hall effect sensors ...
But for this price , it's a good choice .

ok, i installed my stick and throttle today:grin:, replacing a cougar.

first impressions are good, the benefit to immersion by having a full length stick between your legs is worth every penny. the lack of centering springs is unusual after 5 years of getting a work out from the cougar's springs but there is a definite resistance to movement- feels like pushing a bellows or similar and inflight actually feels very good, similar to my limited gliding experience. precision is great, having the long throw- i'm still playing with settings and it generally takes 2 weeks to really settle in with new gear but flew a campaign mission and got 2 kills:-) so it's definately functional.
throttle is very smooth, not so ergonomic as a cougar but feels more like a WW11 plane. the ergonomics of the stick are fantastic, the kink and twist of the stick top just fits your hand- reminds me of the luger.

had to reduce the sensitivity on simpeds as i was overcontrolling rudder with the greater stick movements, add the spring return and it felt a bit like rubbing stomach with one hand and patting head with the other at first:oops:
but that's feeling alot more natural now- guess i'll just have to spend more time practicing:rolleyes:

probably not suited to the online uber dogfight ace type and tir i'd say is a must (4 buttons no hat) but i'm liking it

to pay for it, i work as a lighting technician (roadie), certainly ain't loaded- i just cut down in other areas to feed my simming habit:-P

Very good news, thnx for the head up. We'll be in touch if the board gives us the go-ahead.

BTW we are considering Condor as the flight engine, rumour has it that they have a vastly improved graphics in the works (sucks bigtime atm in MHO), if not - we'll be looking elsewhere, too bad we can't use IL2 (at least if we want to do a glider simulator, doubt we can get the board to finance a WWII sim :-) ).

cya around

Bolox, thanks for the feedback. From your post it does not sound like the universal base has blown you away. Do you feel that the price was justified for the precision and feel you have gained? I have worked for a company that made alot of molded products and I can somewhat understand the price per unit for the stick. Master molds are not cheap to fabricate or maintain. I am still trying to figure out why the base costs so much. Hall sensors are not cheap but a very good pair can be had for a little less than $400.

Came close myself to buy such a stick and the corresponding throttle. Even wrote them an email inquiring about how to get this stuff send to overseas. However, after an initial answer, I didn't hear from them anymore. Meanwhile, I had to pay my kids' college fees, prepare for a move etc. It is easy to loose your enthusiasm when you look at the price (which is certainly justified....but times are difficult).

I wonder if anybody from North America bought one of those sticks and how he got it through customs....:rolleyes:

It is a great idea but still reserved for a small group. On the other end, if I add up all the cougar joysticks I bought (3! and all broke down after approximately a year) to the price of my current CH setting, I come close to the price of this dream equipment.

Keep on going guys. This is really some tremendous work!

Cheers,

Eckhart

:):):)

These certainly look awesome, are there any Spitfire / hurricane sticks?

very little 'blows me away' these days but i did state it's worth every penny (imho). as i said i've had it for a day and am getting to grips with a vastly different technique to a 'sprung' stick- it's kind of like tir at first, your brain/body has to relearn everything till it becomes instinctive. i felt it important to point this out even if it makes my opinion seem a little less enthusiastic than i am about the product.

another plus point is both the base and throttle are based on leo bodnar's chip so if you wished to it is theoretically possible to connect more axes/buttons to the controller (voiding the waranty;) )- something no other stick i know does (apart from the ability to wire into the rudder/brake axes on a cougar).

for precision and immersion i think this is hard to beat

OK, all this talk of 'no self centering' has got me curious and looking at the screws on my x52 stick.
Has anyone taken the spring out of one of these?

@ Eckhart :
Here are some pictures of the "simpit" of an american customer . I received them 2 month ago .
I'd like to have the same !!!
http://c6squad.info/stockc6/Trollbug...ck_at_desk.jpg

http://c6squad.info/stockc6/Trollbug...de_at_desk.jpg

@ Ruxtmp :
Don't forgive the "inertia system" (much more expensive than the high grade Hall effect sensors ... ! ) , the matrix circuit board (ready to plug up to 36 switches on the Leo Bodnar's controller) and of course the ball bearings (very big ones) , and all the other parts of the Universal Base ...

@ Revi :
Yes , we are working on a shifted axis base , as in the Spitfires , Hurricanes , Mosquitos , but also the Skyhawk , Jaguar , Su27 , and a lot of planes ...

I love that 'pit, it's very close to how i envision my dream 'pit (only with many more switches and stuff). I'm keeping a close eye on your gear, as it looks really nice (at least for a day when the funds are more excessive). Do you envision ever doing a feedback stick (not todays "force feedback" but down the road when there is a better system)? I would love to be able to "feel" the air moving over the control surfaces.

Interesting video of the Tarmac Aces show the "no return to center" system, see at ~25s:

http://www.valiant-studio.eu/tarmac/...ies_action.php

Sokol1

Buy the best only cry once !

Keep up the good work C6 :)

when will the rudder peds be ready??

Hey we Euros face the same problems with the CH stuff¬!:mrgreen:,;)

It looks fantastic C6!:grin::grin::grin:

As Rave said before where are you with your work on the pedal? I have an F16 Simped pedal which is great in terms of precision (Hall Sensor) but the spring loaded mechanism makes it somewhat awkward to use. There are other (extremely expensive) pedals out there with oil damping mechanism which adds to the immersion effect. Could you give us some more details about the characteristics of this great looking pedal which is shown in this video?

On a personal note, I am ready to buy the whole stuff but my wife will certainly kill me :(:rolleyes:;).

Could C6 send me a contact address where to order and to get more information about the practical details (shipping, tax refund for non EC countries etc.)?

Cheers,

Eckhart

Ps: I will probably have to tell my wife that this costs less than a mistress...
:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Couldn't agree more & I'd be first in line for a conversion kit for my long suffering FFB stick...but thinking about this further ,the various companies who design & build joysticks don't work in a vacuum-they must see the interest for a period looking joystick or two?They like us can see BoBSoW slowly coming down the track & must know all of us will be buying all new stuff to make it work,perhaps including a new stick & or controls ? I'd like to think they are already at the drawing boards...Well one can dream ....

@ Eckhart : here are some technical infos about the rudder :

- every moving axis is ballbearing mounted
- 1 Hall effect sensor for the rudder , 1 cermet pot for each brake
- 2 strong traction springs for the rudder , dampered by 2 double-action ( push-pull ) linear oil dampers
- 2 linear gas dampers for the brakes
- 2 kinds of soles : Luftwaffe soles , or modern jets soles (Jaguar ;-) )
- very rugged engineering

http://www.tarmac-aces.com/

Is there a gap in the market ? Somewhere between the beautiful Tarmac Aces and the Saitek X52? I also think with the coming game releases the timing couldnt be better.

By the way C6, your gear looks awesome.

There are, at least, the Cougar and the CH Products. And I would like to give a precision : Trollbug is the only C6 in Tarmac Ace ;)

CH is a good medium choice! Cougar is crap unless you rebuild it completely and than it cost a lot of bucks!
Eckhart

You get what you pay for. If you want the best, that setup is priced exactly where it should be. If you want to buy cheap junk, buy it but don't complain about someone that has built a masterpiece and charges about what it costs to make it. "I would never pay that much for blah blah blah whine whine whine"

It's always a question how much you want to invest in your hobby. Of course you can do racing in a VW Golf, but you can also do in a Ferrari. Neither doesn't mean you will win the race, though.

This hardware is really great for immersion and to get a better feeling for the plane. Good hardware isn't cheap, we all know that and there is always a market for it.
For me and at the moment, that would make little sense and I can fly pretty good with my modded X52. If I'd play nothing but IL2 or flightims, I'd definitely consider to build a virtual cockpit and if I flew the 109 only or at least primarily, I'd even consider using this hardware. You can't get much closer.

I can fly pretty good with my modded X52.

Youve moddified youre X52???

Sure.

I removed the original spring and replaced it by one with a smaller diameter. That way the disk that centers the stick has much less friction against the metal stick and moves smoothly over the complete distance (just like the X52Pro).

I also removed the magnet-housings on the X&Y axis and fixed one of the magnets to the part that formerly moved the parts moving the magnets. Less moving parts = more precision, one magnet = linear input.

You can see the effect in the gamecontroller-settings. If you move an unmodified stick, the input values are dampened, so if you move the stick in a circle, the cursor will not make a circle, but a diamond-shaped figure. It's impossible to move the cursor into the corners on 99% of the sticks. If you modify the stick like that, you have a very precise stick and a full range of movement available.

This is how the modification is done:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=21199&page=7

(It requires a bit of fiddling around and get the right position and facing of the magnets, so you better know what you're doing and consider if it's worth it. On the bright side, though, you don't need any electronic skills and you can easily revert the modification. You will lose guarantee, though, when opening the stick!)

@ Eckhart :
I forgot to give you the measure of the rudder :

23 inches wide , between the outsides of the soles . Like a real one .

Hi Trollbug,
Thx for the information!
Did you get my private message?:grin:
I tried to contact "Tarmac-Aces" before but our communication was interrupted..:(
Could you help me out or redirect me?
Many thanx,
Eckhart

check MP , Eckhart !
;-)

@ Feulefalke: Ive looked at the MOD for the x52 I am quite keen on giving this a go, does it make much difference? (there are no pictures to go with the instructions?).

You won't note a difference on normal flight or with minimal input, but in a dogfight, recovering from stalls and flying your plane at the edge, you'll easily notice the difference.

Rightclick you profiler-icon in the task-bar to the lower right and click the calibration-window. I don't know what it's called in English - in German it's "Steuerleiste", directly above close. Now you can see the movement and function of all buttons. If you move the stick in a full circle at maximum angle, it the little cross will either move into the corner or describe a more diamond-shaped path. If the later is true, you can see that pulling your stick full back and to the side, only half of your input actually moves your aircraft.

Besides that the mechanics of the original mechanism allow the stick to be moved almost a centimeter, measured from the top of the stick, without moving the magnet-holder enough for the Hall-sensors to notice.

In the thread I posted, there are a lot of good informations how to do the modification. It's not difficult, but finding the right spot for the magnet takes a little time. I fixed my magnets with double-sided tape on a piece of a CD I cut in pieces. That got me the right distance between the sensor and the magnet.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you need further instructions or help.

I like the "idea" of having these over-the-top sticks and controllers available. Being a severe lefty, they simply aren't practical for me, but were I not so southpaw-inclined, I'd seriously consider one of these setups.

I got the same looks from people when I bought a 27" monitor for $1,000 (when 24" versions could be had for half that) so I could enjoy my sims and games more. With the longevity these controllers would seem to have, the amortized investment could be easily justified.

Couldn't agree more.

On the other hand, as I always tend to modify and fiddle around with my input devices, I'd be really p*ssed, if I'd break a 1.000$ stick, compared to my X52 ;)

But then it's the question if I would even have to modify it.... :cool:

have just modded my x52 and finding the result quite nice, thanks for the link Feuerfalke.
This might buy me enough time now to save for one of those beauties. ;)

Cool! :cool:

I'm glad you like it. I bet you agree that it's really not hard to do, compared to the improvements.

not hard, well worth the slaying the dragon. [I] dont like messing with technology, but now the stick responds like t should.

How do these Tarmac Ace controllers interface with IL2? IOW, is there any programming software that comes with these devices? I absolutely love the look of these controllers, but going from all of my buttons and modes on my CH setup could be a scary proposition. :D

as they are based on a leo bodner bu0836 controller they are recognised as such by windoze, and can be assigned directly as dx buttons in game- this is the way i'm running mine anyway.

tarmac aces don't recommend the use of software but any keyboard emulator should be fine, svmapper for xp (free)
http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.php?t=46137
or digital transforms for vista
http://www.digitaltransforms.com/
(not free but free trial) would be my suggestions to look at- there are others.

for all those 'other' controls on your ch setup there are several ways forward:-

use ch throttle and you'll still have all these commands;) - use the stick aswell as a button bay?

make a custom controller (using another bu0836 or similar). i'm doing this using a beta innovations plasma lite for 88 buttons/switches/rotary encoders.
this transferred (nearly)all my cougar programmed controls.

get a touchscreen and use touchbuddy
http://www.touch-buddy.com/forums/fa...aster-faq.html

and with any of these if you haven't got tir- get it:!:

hope this has given you some ideas and eased the scare factor

additional button options
 

Concerning buttons for flight simulation..............

I fly with the full line of CH-products. I have a small space between my Fighterstick and throttle. Not quite enough room for a keyboard.

I do not like using my CH product buttons for certain things, such as the many possible flight and wingman commands.

I ordered me an X-key Professional yesterday it is about 9"x 8" and will fit perfectly in my cockpit right there between my Fighterstick and throttle.

http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xkpro.php

Comes with programming software for keystrokes and macros, also software and templets for labeling each button.

This could be a possible solution (58 keys should be enough) for the lack of buttons if using tarmac equipment.

X Keys could be a solution (or CH's rough equivalent with their MFP). Funny thing is, with my CH setup (throttle, throttle quad, fighterstick, plus TrackIR), I am able to shoehorn in all the commands I need for IL2, including flight, wingman, and ground control commands. :cool: I would really have to think long and hard about moving to a combination MFP / flightstick / throttle combination with these Tarmac Ace controllers. It's such a tough decision, because I really do like my CH setup, but I just love the look of those TA controllers.

Ah, decisions, decisions... :D

No one said you'd have to get rid of your CH stuff. If you're able, and not remorseful at spending on this stuff, I'd say get them.

I'll live vicariously for now. ;)

Feuerfalke, I want to thank you for posting the X52 mod. I tried it, and so far I'm impressed with the precision, after tightening up the top of the stick with tape (I dont use the twist, anyway), there is 0 movement without the sensors picking it up. I also modified the trigger, by removing the tip of the plunger for the first stage and bending the lever for the second stage just a bit, now the takeup is at the beginning of the triggers' travel, and the transition from guns, to guns and cannons is smooth as silk.

Thanks again, M8

You're welcome, BA.

I'm glad you like it, too. :cool:

I just took a look at the video clip of the "Tarmac" at work and I have to admit it is a very nice bit of work... I still think that its priced way out of reach for the average enthusiast (or even the virtual ace that is willing to go the extra mile) but if that is the lowest you can go then its just too bad for the rest of us... very nice.

I'm also curious about the non-centering. . .does it stay where you left it (ie not center) even at flight speeds?

yes, it operates in just that fashion- there is no change in the 'damping force' with speed (or any other ingame parameter)..

there is rumour of some sort of 'force management' in the works but it's working fine for me:grin: i find it very immersive and very precise.

Hmm. . .I'd hoped I'd missunderstood that. While it would be great to avoid any centering mechanism that introduced transition flats, or a springy feel to the travel, to be realistic, there needs to be some sort of centering mechanism, ideally one that is speed (and aircraft type) sensitive.

Thanks for the info!

[Edit]I now see the statement on the website "Innovative technologies for forces management and the realistic reproduction of the sensations of a real device (no return to zero)".

While it's true that an aircraft on the ground has no return to center, in flight it most certainly does. This is not an artifact of computer joysticks. In flight these forces are very evident to the pilot, and perhaps one of the single most unrealistic aspect of computer joysticks is the lack of significant stick forces during times when there should be high stick forces. . .often in the 30-40 pound range, and sometimes more. So based on the statements on the website, it would seem that the stick is not being tested by pilots, as this "feature" would not be touted as a realistic aspect - because it isn't!

It looks like such an awesome project, so it would be a shame to not quite go the distance towards a truly realistic joystick.

If you want a tester, you know where to find me! :-D