I Refuse To Fly WW2 CoD German Aircraft. Why?
 

Hi all,

I regard myself as educated. I have a good university degree, I went to what is regarded as a 'good' school and I enjoy all periods and aspects of history. I value reasoned and at times unreasoned debate!

As regards Cliffs of Dover, I cannot bring myself to 'fly' German aircraft. I used to fly German aircraft in il2 1946 against Russian aircraft online without a problem. Maybe this was a Cold War hang-over??

Perhaps the problem is caused by an 'enemy' attacking my home?? Yes, I realise that it's not real and it all comprises digital ones and noughts etc. But overflying Dover, Brighton and Manston with such good maps does bring it home to me.

How would our German members here feel about an RAF Bomber Command and US 8th bomber assault on their country as a simulator? Would a few German members fly Lancasters and B-17s?

What are the opinions of today's Neutrals?

And as I have mentioned in a previous thread, this post is in no way a condemnation of today's Germany. Germany is my second home. Britain and Germany lost their way in 1914 because of politicians and again in 1939. And our beer tastes the same:) And we have the same Royal Family:)

And many of us have similar DNA:)

How's the Euro at the moment:cool:



Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

I fly anything except Italian planes... :-)

;)

I've flown bombers attacking Germany or german troops in IL2 all the time, espeically the P47 was a favorite ride. Used the Blen here also a couple times. But then again, carpet bombing missions never were on the cards to begin with.

It's a game, if you take it "too" seriously, I suggest getting out and travelling a bit more.

Have you lost your mind?

England (including all other countries, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland, as was appropriate at this time to refer to them simply as England) and France declared war on Germany.

Dispite numerous peace offers of Germany (or the 3rd Reich if you prefer), we the English (British) declined, even when Hitler offered to step down... These peace offering and nogotiations even encluded Rudolf Hess (2nd deputy of Germany) flying to Scotland to reason with the Duke of Hamilton.... In short NSDAP Germany went to great lengths not to war with England. Through the situation England which found the situation of events distasteful - waged war on Germany upon the will of only one man - Winston Spencer Churchill - Lord of the Admiralty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MRfcYZNS9Y

"Victory, Victory at all costs!" A victory that cost the English (yes Im English but I was not there) an Empire! An Empire that was put up as collatoral for the massive and extorsionate loans from the USA and other countries. An Empire which granted some states independance in exchange for service to the British Realm in exchange if they fought for Britian! - Indian Regiments for example! An Empire WS Churchill was trying to save!

Winston Spencer Churchill, syphilis sufferer, was a Veteran of the colonial wars (he had to do the exam 3 times at sandhurst to become an officer because he failed it twice!) in India and Africa. He was fighting for Englands (Britians) sake, for an Empire he "cashed in" to fight the Germans! Only Great Britain was to rule the world - having the largest empire in the world EVER! It was Mutually Assured Destruction before the cold war!

What ever you believe (and I am not pro NSDAP or anything else but a human being!) you must consder the historical importance from before and after this time!


I'd also like to point out Germany finally repaid its War reperations a few years ago:

Wikipedia (unreliable)

Wheras England and the USA never paid any reperations for the crimes against humanity for Dresden, Hamburg, Nagasaki or Hiroshima! The VICTORS write the rules...

In short patriotism is for C****! ;)

Thanks. I'll go back to Germany again and therefore travel a bit more :rolleyes:

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

My considered but non-medical opinion is that you're either completely mad or a complete fool. WW2 may very well have had its roots in WW1 but ultimately it was started by Germany's invasion of Poland and Britain doing what she said she'd do for Poland and thereafter France. I believe it was Chamberlainthat declared war with the support of Parliament but I can't be bothered to research it.

Now of course we could have had an armistice with Germany, and left most of Europe in German hands until they'd finished with Russia before starting on us, but I can't quite bring myself to believe that any pact with Germany would have been honoured.

But anyway I have no idea what this has to do with the original post. Avro, as a Brit I'm happy to fly Luftwaffe planes and through it now have some great German and Austrian friends. In fact I prefer Luftwaffe aircraft to RAF aircraft though the Spit is the most beautiful plane ever.

Hood



BBC

1939: Britain and France declare war on Germany
Britain and France are at war with Germany following the invasion of Poland two days ago.
At 1115 BST the Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, announced the British deadline for the withdrawal of German troops from Poland had expired.

He said the British ambassador to Berlin had handed a final note to the German government this morning saying unless it announced plans to withdraw from Poland by 1100, a state of war would exist between the two countries.

Mr Chamberlain continued: "I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received and consequently this country is at war with Germany."

Similarly the French issued an ultimatum, which was presented in Berlin at 1230, saying France would be at war unless a 1700 deadline for the troops' withdrawal was adhered to.

King George has called upon "my people at home and my peoples across the seas". He continued: "I ask them to stand calm, firm and united in this time of trial. The task will be hard. There may be dark days ahead and war can no longer be confined to the battlefield. But we can only do the right as we see the right and reverently commit our cause to God."

A War Cabinet of nine members has been set up with two new ministers, including Winston Churchill as First Lord of the Admiralty, the post he held at the outbreak of World War I. Lord Hankey becomes Minister without Portfolio.

Anthony Eden will take over as Dominions Secretary with special access to the War Cabinet. Mr Eden resigned from the post of Secretary of Foreign Affairs last year because he disagreed with the policy of appeasement.

The National Service (Armed Forces) Act has been passed making all men between 18 and 41 liable for conscription. The armed forces have already been mobilized for war and in July the first Territorial Army conscripts were called up.

Latest reports from Poland say the Germans have bombed a number of towns and cities, some with little or no strategic importance. About 1,500 are reported to have been killed or injured in the attacks on Friday and Saturday.

In his broadcast to the nation, Mr Chamberlain spoke of his sadness that "the long struggle to win peace" had failed.

He continued: "I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different that I could have done and that would have been more successful."

Yesterday there was anger in the House of Commons over the Government's apparent delay in taking action against Germany.

Labour's deputy leader Arthur Greenwood had accused the Prime Minister of vacillating when "Britain and all that Britain stands for are in peril".

Today's declaration of war was received with rousing cheers. As Mr Chamberlain informed the House Britain could not take part in a five-power conference proposed by Italy while Poland was being invaded.

It has also been received with great enthusiasm in the Polish capital, Warsaw, where crowds took to the streets outside the British and French embassies cheering and singing.

Yes Poland, the Polish that were good enough to fight and die for the Glorious British Empire and then whom were left under Soviet control.... BETRAYED by the English! The Soviets that exterminated the Polish officer Corps? AKA - The Katyn massacre

It might have been Chamberlain that declared war but as he resigned in the face of war it was left to the new PM to conclude the fact!

as for the BBC - forget it. They are a media organisation "independant of the government" apparently. Reporting of non facts is not a crime of news broadcasters. They can print what they like.


Quite allot if you care to read it again:



Please dont pretend this is all cut and dry of the baddies versus the goodies.


For your records,

• my Grandmothers brother (fathers mother) was a stoker on an LCT at Dieppe - KIA
• My Grandfather was a a rating on a Royal Navy (converted trawler) minesweeper 1943+ including D-Day - survived (although its partner sister ship was blown to smitherenes with the loss of all hands whilst dragging a cable and cutter over sea mines!)
• My fathers uncle was a Bomber pilot (Jack Roberts - DFM) who worked his way from Sterlings and Hampdens to mosquito intruder squadrons. (of which I can find no trace online in any free archieves) - Survived
• My fathers mother was a WRAF plotter - Survived

Peace.

Once the Soviets decided to betray the west and take what chunk of europe it could I don't think there was much Britain could have done about it.

Truly one of the most bizarre postings ever made on a flight sim forum.

Farber, where on earth do you get your information?
Churchill suffered from Syphilis!? Hitler offered to step down?? Roflmao!!
The war was Churchills decision alone!!? The clip you posted gives you the lie to that statement anyway. When Chamberlain stepped down as PM in May 1940 there were two choices to succeed him. Churchill or Halifax. Whoever was PM had to command the support of the Labour party to form a national government. The Labour party did not trust Halifax. They turned to Churchill because the mood of the country was defiance.

Everyone realised that to make terms with Hitler meant the end of our freedom and the end of any hopes of freedom for the rest of Europe.

You don't, by any chance get your information from some sort of....er....right wing political websites do you? Just askin'.

you take this game so seriously you cant fly german

man i take it so real life like i dont even shoot, just fly fopr the fun

Sorry it was his father who had it. As for the mood of the people, please see Simon Schama's interpretation. Hes a historian, I am a layman.

What freedom? Freedom to be ruled by one or another? You should seriously look up fleet law and common law and see how our freedoms are being used by corporations. We are all serfs under somebody.

No I do not. If you had read the above correctly you would not make assumptions as you are. I prefer to read as many sources as I can and draw my own conclusions as a Human Being. ;)

?

What your relatives did have no bearing on how misguided your post is, though I'd love to know what they'd say if they read it.

The original post was nothing to do with the rights and wrongs, but with flying aircraft used by the "enemy" whichever side the "enemy" fought for.

As for "peace", what does that mean? Acceding to the demands of a bonkers leader freeing him up to annexe large parts of Europe and exterminating entire races, or does it mean making the ultimate sacrifice to protect your country, its people and those that you are allied with?

I think you can shove your version of peace so far up the dark place that it tickles your nose.

Hood

ps for your records, one grandfather stepped on a mine but lived and one taught pilots to fly Spits. I think they'd both laugh at you, or worse.

pps Over and out as I don't think I can contribute more in the face of obstinate stupidity.

I included it purley for the people, who like you, like to jump on the "what my ancestors did in the war and why I am pround and right!" crowd who think war is glorious and rightous! The people that use the argument "my ancestors took part so I have a right to say what I think!". Well my ancestors took part and here is what I think!

Im sad for you. I think they would all agree wars a waste. ;)

Why didnt you make any reasoning or point of the Polish officer corps massacre by the Soviets? Why dont you feel troubled by the betrayel of Poland by England and France? These things that lead to the war mean nothing for the glory of England? What about the war crimes of the British of Hamburg and Dresden?

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

and let us not forget:

“That was mere foreplay. Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings.” (German: “Das war Vorspiel nur. Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.”)
- Heinrich Heine, Almansor (1821)

You say that the second world war was fought to preserve freedoms! Yet you deny me these freedoms! You sir are the evil. You have become what you hate!


It means I dont wish anybody any harm.



So Avro Uk, fly what makes you happy for what ever reasons because you are free to do so! :-P

Does anyone know the pressure of the front tyres of an Octavia? In general
terms. I'll make my own assessment if there are no replies. Thank you all.

How does it compare to a Superb?

And were Skoda tanks the best?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

MB_Avro_UK, you are clearly deluded:

our beer does NOT taste the same!

No but I hear Skoda are a VW now. So win win! Previously the jokes of like when does a Skoda do 60 mph? - when it drives of a cliff! are no more!


Whats a superb and no...




I can also bear witness and NO its now where near.

Becks for the win! :-P (at least for import in UK)

Hi Avro,


Not sure.

But here is a nice picture of a Skoda car being run over by a Sherman tank.

http://www.vord.net/friends/skoda/skoda4.jpg

I'm from Greece. We lost 10% of our population during the axis invasion and subsequent occupation.

Most of these casualties were not the result of initial combat actions, but of the Wermacht stealing the country's entire food production and shipping it to the eastern front, with the end result that during the winter of '41 people were dying in the streets of cities out of starvation.

Also, a compulsory loan was exacted, whereby the occupied Greek state was forced to print money en masse for the occupying troops to use. Essentially, money was printed so the occupation troops could be rich when they were on leave, but it drove inflation sky high, to the point that a few slices of bread on the streets of Athens were priced at 1 billion drachmas during that winter.

Apart from a couple of airstrips constructed or expanded for use by the luftwaffe (the old Athens airport and the currently used Thessaloniki airport), the rest of the country's civilian infrastructure was blown back to the stone age and all means of production either seized or destroyed. Apart from the first two installments that the Nazi government paid back, the rest of the loan was never returned and neither did the Greek state receive any war reparations whatsoever.

Finally, some archeological digs were started and it is somewhat unclear if, what kind of and how many antiquities were stolen and if so, whether they have been returned.

The countryside was a different story. Food shortages were not as pronounced, but the villages were under frequent reprisal raids to discourage aiding the guerrilla fighters.

As a side note, the Greek guerrilla groups had mostly liberated the countryside by as early as 1943, leaving the axis troops to only control the big cities. A few hours to the north Serbian and Yugoslav groups were also successful, to the point that parts of Yugoslavia were the only occupied territories to be declared an active front. In both cases, this was happening at the same time that the guerrilla groups were fighting both the axis and each other in a civil war based on political beliefs (royalists vs communists usually). All of this tied up valuable units that would have been otherwise used on the Eastern Front. In fact, the entire operation Marita (the assault on the Balkans) delayed the start of Barbarossa and possibly made a real difference, if we take into account the fact that the Wermacht was stopped about 20kms outside Moscow.

However, all this came at a high price in lives and a lot of that was civilians and non-combatants. In many cases entire villages were leveled and hundreds of people summarily executed as reprisals. Also, most of these war crimes committed during the occupation were not the work of NSDAP instruments lke the SS and Gestapo, but perpetrated by regular Wermacht troops under the orders of well known high command Generals.

This started as early as the battle on the Bulgarian border, when a machine gunner was captured after inflicting heavy losses to an attacking Wermacht detachment. The Wermacht officer ordered the man to be brought to him, saluted him and then ordered his execution to boost the morale of his own troops. This is the first documented execution.

In Crete, the paratroopers leveled the Cretan village of Kandanos right after the battle, to punish the Cretan civilians for their tenacious defence, leaving behind an inscribed plaque to discourage further resistance actions.

In Athens, unarmed citizens went up in open revolt against the forced worker conscription policy and were fired on by carabinieri. However they succeeded and Greece was the only occupied country that wasn't forced to send workers to the factories building tanks and aircraft for the axis, maybe because they thought they would sabotage everything.

Finally, the villages of Kalavryta and Distomo were leveled, men between the ages of 12 and 60 were executed and other civilians locked into the church and set on fire.

On top of all that, Greece also had 2 squadrons of fighters (335 and 336 sqd) and a light bomber squadron (i think that was 33 sqd, usually operating with mixed crews of Greek officers as pilots/navigators and Commonwealth troops as aircrew/gunners) operating under RAF command in N.Africa and then over Italy (for example, the bombers took part in the battle of Monte Casino shortly after switching from Blenheims to Martin Baltimores, the fighters were active in the battle of El Alamein, etc), ground troops that fought in the Middle East and Italy, a commando detachment that took part in the battle of the Dodecanese along with British troops, as well as numerous warships operating in the Mediterranean and as convoy escorts in the Indian ocean, a Flower class corvette that was part of the D-Day fleet, numerous merchant ships running the U-boat gauntlet and getting sunk in the Atlantic daily, loads of civilian fishing trawlers transporting allied operatives around the occupied Balkans and even a guerrilla held and maintained airport smack in the middle of axis occupied territory (the Serbs had one too and they used it to evacuate 600 downed airmen from the Ploesti raids, with terrible risk of reprisals for their civilians), which was so well camouflaged that JG27's 109s operating from Athens were unable to inflict any serious damage to it despite numerous ground attack sorties. That airport was eventually taken over by axis ground troops and the head of the guard (which was manned by the armed branch of the Greek communist party) stayed back until he exhausted his ammo and got killed, in order to allow the British SOE operatives to escape and plan further actions against the occupying forces.

What am i getting at you'll ask?

Well, if anybody should be feeling bad about flying axis it should be Greeks :-P

Despite all that, i have no problem flying on the Axis team. I fly sims to experience a specific part of history that i like, so that i can further understand and study it. I don't feel guilty at all. If anything, i get an even better appreciation of what our grandpas did back then when i see how superior the 109Fs they faced over El Alamein were against their Hurricane Mk.IICs, or how outclassed their PZL24s would have been against an onslaught of 109Es during that April of '41.

There are a few other posters on this board that i know to be Greek and they also mostly fly axis aircraft. Heck, i was flying blue on IL2:1946 mod maps that had me flying over a scaled down depiction of Greece and i still had no apprehensions about it.

That being said, it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. Some people will get a more emotional response, so understandably it will be harder for them to fly on the "enemy" team.

By the way, i think it was Krupi on these boards who once commented about a scheduled multiplayer event when the time was adjusted to allow US players an easier participation: "Damn Yanks telling me when i can bomb my homeland, what's next?". I hadn't laughed that hard in quite a while :grin:

For me the answer is simple. Each one should fly what they are comfortable with, understand there is no shame in that and finally, realize that other players might have a different feeling about it all and not judge them negatively. We're here to learn, appreciate the efforts of people on all sides and have fun while doing it, not relive the hatred that caused that mess in the first place ;)

hey buddy you are a Greek too:grin:
nice...

I always fly german stuff in IL2 1946, but find it hard to in Clod, mainly because of Crummp on these boards.

HAHA :lol: , glad I made you laugh Blackdog its always a pleasure to read your posts!

I'am guessing that its because your the only person on the forums that has truly taken heed of this wise saying...

"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

;)

Thankyou for putting this in perspective.


One of the reasons I don't feel comfortable in the Axis planes is that darned electric pitch control. I keep on porking the engines. I think I need to put some time into theBlue planes just to beable to even up teams when needed! (also let some Red pilots have a few easy kills some times ;) )

Cheers

Farber, I'm going to pop you on my ignore list for a bit.

Excellant! Yes please do and prove you are against peoples freedoms:

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


+1 :cool:

Its is LOVELY to hear your side from a Greek. Thank you for sharing!

Sincerely,

RF.

S!

Ok I'll bite and I'll even do the old using quotes thingy too.

I do believe you jumped first. What my grandparents did doesn't make what I think right nor does it affect what I think. Neither do I think that war is glorious and righteous. You really are jumping to conclusions.

I think they'd agree wars are a waste but I also think they'd consider you to be a crazy loon and/or a right wing fanatic. That or someone who has been led so far up the wrong path they don't have the wits to see what's in front of them.

Because they had nothing to do with Avro's post just nonsensical ramblings on your part. I'll deal with them if you want.

The Katyn massacre happened as did the Soviet purges, as did the Holocaust as did atrocities caused by my any armies of many other nations etc etc etc. Britain couldn't somehow reach into Poland to prevent a massacre that they knew nothing about, and once knowing the decision was probably that the pact with the USSR was more important. The extent of Soviet and German atrocities was not properly understood until the end (yes I know that reports were received about the concentration camps before the war's end).

Poland is a sad subject. I suppose that having lost 400,000 troops and an empire, that Britain could have taken on the Red Army with their 10,000,000+ troops, incredible production rates and easier logistics. Go and read about the Yalta conference and see what Churchill wanted for eastern Europe.

The bombing of Hamburg and Dresden by the RAF and USAAF was not a war crime. Morally wrong, possibly, though that is a question for greater philosophers than me. My personal opinion is that it was an honest and tragic mistake.

Congratulations you can use the internet and read quotes.

I'm trying to work out how I deny you your freedoms and how exactly I am evil. What I really hate is having to eat vegetables or fish, and I'm not a vegetable or a fish. If I were I'd have difficulty typing don't you think?

You've confirmed my belief that you are a fool. It'd be better if you were just stupid, though maybe you're that too.

I'm going away now before you drag me down even further and beat me with your experience.

Hood

So, you're a monster then?
Whatever. Have fun with all your swastikas.

I for myself fly everything. I like the different aircraft types.
Why should i not fly the I-16 if its available.
Lancaster, Wellington, WHIRLWIND great but please made them.:-P

Russian, French, Italian, German, British, American, Japanese aircraft are beautiful, sure i have my favorites, but like most of them.

No need for me to be one sided.;)


S!

Your an ass, there is truth in what Farber has stated that doesn't mean he supports a certain ideology you presumptuous **** head

+ 1

I flew couple of sorties with farber, and he`s absolutely not an ideological one way street.

I am german and i had my thoughts about this topic, but for me it`s just a plane and at least just a simulator that i play and got nothing to do with my attitude of life.

:rolleyes:

I think that everyone should be aware of the things that happened in history. That's the best way to learn, concerning all mistakes every single nation did in the past.
After all it had to be done, fighting rhe nazi regime in WW 2 to avoid the genocide of Jews and to stop the nazis and their ideology.
I for my part have the distance and the knowledge to maintain the distance to fly a bf-109, because i like the flying in that plane more, than in a spit or hurry. (But i like more the shape of the spit, to be true!)

To follow on from what you are saying here (but not in response to you for what you are saying...

Freedom and freedom of speech, is people being able to move about freely, to associate, to choose their work, to write, to read, etc and the freedom to be able voice thoughts and feelings without fear - it does not mean one has the freedom to do or say whatever they please.

Germans still in denial about WWII I see. 20 milion people killed is not enough for you?

Yes, +1 betrayal is the right word here.

Yes because the British should have fought an unwinnable war alone against the Russians just so Britain could have been part of the Soviet Union too, makes perfect sense to do this immediately after a war which practically broke our country.

I was thinking of his sig picture before the mods insisted he change it. Never seen so many swastikas in one place. Please take your insults somewhere else.

Yet, you don't even know that your country is indeed part of what we call Europe :-P

I understand what you mean. I have very similar perspective on German / British people. I spend considerable amount of time in both countries and I agree that you are, in a way, very very similar indeed. This has nothing to do with today's politics. As for the personal feelings flying for the bad guys or for the good guys, we are spending our evenings in the Summer of 2012 by shooting pixels on other guys sipping beer in their living rooms, that is quite different to the Summer of 1940 and boys climbing in ther Messerschmitts or Hurricanes.

If I'd be having your kind of hard feelings, I would not be able to fly for the Luftwaffe, because these German guys split my country and as a result our pilots fly the 109s against the Russians, who I can't fly either although some of our pilots were good with their Lavochkas and also because they bloody invaded us later on. I can't fly the USAAF because they dropped bombs on us and killed our pilots trying to make them bomb somewhere else. I can't fly for the Hungarians because we had a war with them early on and I can't fly the RAF although there were also some pilots in the same time when the other ones flew their 109s and they were enemies.

As you can clearly see, I can't fly any simulators because of my feelings and I would be obliged to be shooting down myself, which is is very tricky:

http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Tiger138260.htm

I get the feeling that this thread is going to show the REAL trolls of the community not the ones that are fed up of a buggy game but the ones that think if you fly blue it means you support there ideology.

Before you say anything about me I am British, was born in Germany and I can't stand patriots.

I have long forgotten why I started flying blue but my first few years playing il2 were spent flying for the reds. I now fly blue mainly due to my love of the engineering behind the 109 and 190 plus they just look so mean :D

Truth be told at the release of cod I almost quit JG52 to look for an RAF side and I have participated occasionally with 56raf squad sorties on ATAG :)

That is very true. It was the utter aggression and expansive politics of the English politicians AND people that was behind the outbreak of the Second world war. It was Mr. Churchill who plotted the evil plan to take over after Chamberlain and get some small shitty countries to call themselves Great Britain. It was the poor small peaceful Germany with calm and loving chap in the lead who wanted to be left alone. Instead, they were stabbed in their loving hearts by WLS Churchill. Such a sad story that was.

Well said Krupi. It's hilarious how people see things because of a computer game with aircraft.

;)

Because of this I usually fly blue BUT don't ask me to fly italian planes...

For me it's simple: I always liked the Tie-Fighters more than the X-Wings... it a "Dark Side" matter.

I love games like Dungeon Keeper and Evil Genius...

http://www.peoplejam.com/files/u1811...sExcellent.gif

Not that in WW2 there were a striking difference between Good and Bad, IMO.

Not entirely untrue.
Hitler wanted a cease-fire treaty with England from the beginning, the basic idea was to work in Africa together(or at least not bother each other). Had WC taken it, you'd still have your colonies today. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn8vp6GsqkA#t=00m43s


As of Summer '43 Hitler tried again to achieve the same with the Western Allies, of course they would only accept an unconditional capitulation, which he had to reject.
(source: rudel, stuka pilot)

That Stuka pilot interview video collection is awesome. Very long and detailed and talks about allot of aspects from the common soldiers point of view.


As for the red aircraft, I just find the instruments and the way the pitch works quite backwards. Also there is a plus side to flying blue, you get to fight all the other countries and in allot more theatres. Those that love the RAF aircraft are not going to be so happy with the Eastern front. Although the units which fly the VVS stuff will love it. We that fly blue get to enjoy allot more theatres!


Feathered IV:

The images in my units signitures are awards from fighting in our camapigns against other squadrons. We try to emmulate the Luftwaffe as accuratley as possible. We combine flight simming with history. None of the images our personal beliefs. Our signitures are our virtual uniforms and the medals and awards are placed upon them in the same position as if it were a real tunic with the correct (although there wasnt much of rule in the Luftwaffe) order of precedence. By looking at one of members fully dressed signitures you can see what he has taken part in and estimate how many victories he has to his virtual career. Victories are only added when we fight against other squadrons in organised events and furthermore can only be added if you survive and get back to friendly lines. Its like a resume or CV. It is not an alignment to any political group, we are a apolitical unit. It is simply for historical accuracy reenactment purposes. We also write newspapers about our actions, I will include one for you below, just be careful as we try to emmulate a certain "Wochanschau" style in the content. Please also note the "One Sided Publication" at the bottom right. Hopefully now you can understand a little better my position. ;)

arthursmedley's post was a question, not a statement. Notice the '?'.

It is naive to believe Hitler would honour any agreements, as history shows.

a cease fire was never on the cards after the polish and french invasions, to say that churchill or england are responsible for the war is hilarious. treaties were drawn up to restrict german expansion, and they were held. the fact that the poles were so royally shafted after the war is far more worth discussing than the apologist fallacy of "england and france started the war".

So you sat back and observed execution of milions in 1939 and then again of hundreds of thousands in 1945.

And puuuhlease man! You don`t have the slightest idea of what "broken country" means.

Right, Stalin was much better. Unlike the Allies he didn't return his countries after the war. There was no way to avoid the war in the East, Stalin would have tried to advance westwards sooner or later anyway.


Actually it was "!!?" a combo which doesnt exist["?!" does], I'll have to take it as "!!".

What exactly do you think the British could of done out of interest?

Maybe gather ~70 divisions along with France and march into Germany?

The only victors in war are those that financially profited, and hence pulled the strings to a certain degree, even in WWI

Follow the money trail. Its way to complicated to digest in a short period of time. Want a wake up call, just follow the Bush families interests and investments start in WWII go to Present. Wow shocking ehh.

And it is all presently playing out once again. One thing is certain, never believe the spin the try to sell you on as far as the reasons behind why we do it, and do not trust the history you think you believe.

It is all so convoluted no one is really able to figure out the truth. Two things are certain most of what takes place is done for Money and Control

And there's me thinking the Poles fought to kill Germans when all along it was to preserve the British Empire.

Put yourself in the position of Britain in 1945. Stretched, tired, broke and with an empire in tatters. Then look at what they'd have to face to contest Poland by force.

Betrayal, no. Invasion by an unstoppable force, certainly. There's a whole world of difference between turning your back or just accepting what has happened because the costs of doing something are too high.

I reckon the Soviets could have driven their tanks up Pall Mall quite quickly if they'd wanted to.

That'd do a lt against the 300 or so divisions the Soviets had.

The Poles thought all along that even after betraying Poland in 1939, the British would walk them to Berlin and further, ensuring the liberty of the Polish people. Battle of Britain was just the first step.

Yet the Britain was able to face the USSR when it was about sharing the III Reich.

Britain should have never ratify any international agreements if they were to ignore them from the start.

I reckon the Allied forces still had a few milion German soldiers ready to fight the commies by the end of the war.

First off, they did not know that USSR was about to invade on 17th September.

Second, Germans showed in 1941 what the USSR divisions are worth.

and you think that would of gone well?

So you also think that the russian army was the same quality in 45 as 41, lol.

I was talking about the first betrayal back in 1939. In 1945 only few Polish army men believed in anything Churchill said.

Well some German commanders commented it would have.

If the '!!' came last only. As the '?' came last it was a question.

well from that i can only conclude that you truly are from 'optimist', bearing in mind what happened in may 1940.

+1

My folks (both departed) were married in '42, had two weeks together, then Dad was off to war flying out of England (RAAF) '42 - '45. They next saw each other when Dad was demobbed Fall '45 and he returned to Canada. They both told me that all everyone wanted by that time was for the war to be over. By any means possible. Put Hitler and Tojo out of business and get the troops home ASAP. Period.

Both politicians and (most) military commanders of the day recognized there was no stomach for military adventurism, opportunism, or even consolidation of "liberated" (ie Poland, Balkans, etc) countries. The Allied population -- the voting population -- didn't care about who got what at war's end. They just wanted to have Johnny come walking home again. And any politician that wanted to keep his elected office was fully aware of that. And so was Stalin.

lol... those pommies who won't fly "german" because of the war - crikey, do some research on the antics of The British Empire in the Middle East, The British Empire in China, The British Empire in South Africa (Yes, The British Empire established the first "Concentration Camp") and The British Empire in India/ Tibet.

Gotta go with your heart

Yep.

;)

And that's all I'm going to say in this thread.

Good, we need more red pilots.

Losing the cricket are we?

Avro's question was addressed to all "sides". What on earth has the British Empire's frolics have to do with not flying an enemy's plane?

Hood

S!

I fly them all. Know your adversary ;)

cricket is for batters

So the Germans are still your enemies? :-P

Qft :D

...and bowlers and fielders - it wouldn't really work with just batters.

I'm veering towards thinking you're stupid as well as a fool. Go look at the definition of "enemy" and let me know if any definition says that enemy = German. Then let me know the thought processes that led to your hypothesis.

Maybe you're trolling?

Hood

No wonder there's still so much whining about "plane performance". I guess for some people there war is still not over.

Not flying german planes... most ... ... ... thing I ever heard. Thanks for the laugh though...

Because you have no made any mention to which aircraft you fly or do not fly and for what reasons if any you are quite right that my statement is incorrect. I apologise. I have made an assuption which is wrong!

However:

A quick look and unless I have missed it you havent commented upon which aircraft you do or do not fly for any reason! You have merely tried to drag down my reputation and insult me.

So therefore, YOU SIR, are in fact "trolling" me. ;)

See my first post the majority of which was taking issue with your inflammatory ideas. As I said in that post I'm a Brit but I don't have a problem flying the LW planes. I've flown in a LW squad and an RAF squad.

Hood

On side note, they weren't worth much without the US supplies.
They'd have to build their own trucks and bombers instead of putting everything into tanks production.... ;)

Yeah they would've had a hard time without those trucks, especially because of their mass use of artillery.

Sorry I guess I did in fact miss that! I am not infallable, I am a Human being. So for you flying both is not a problem. Thats good, I actually started off as a Hurricane pilot but was swept up with the 109 and those flying it. So really for me it was fly the 109 and learn or fly the Hurricane on my own. I must admit though though flying the 109 for so long I really cant fly anything as well. :-P

You didnt need to to label me a facist, a nazi, a fool or question my sanity though that was just rude. ;)

Much love,
Farber.

I don't understand. Where do some of you guys get this fantasy history from exactly? Please show me some evidence of any offers of a "cease-fire treaty" from "the beginning" or from the summer of '43. I'm not sure what conclusion I'm supposed to be drawing from this youtube clip either. Was the British and German war effort being directed by an army captain and a captured Stuka pilot in the western desert?

@Avro; another class thread! How do you do it?:grin:

I fly 'em all, but have my favorites, which usually are not German. I actually prefer to fly Japanese aircraft, go figure.

From what I see from my side of the Atlantic, this thread is yet more proof that the European "Union" is a doomed enterprise.

Now if only the sim would work properly so I could enjoy flying the G.50.

Cheers Gents, and don't beat each other up so much, it's just a game.

none of you ever lived in the east.. the real east, which is at Russia's border, or beyond it.

if you really want to know, ask the finns, ask the poles, ask the letons, and the romanians.. there's no much left from the ask the ukraineans.. and then maybe you'll start to comprehend that the red monster was 10 time worse then the black one.

all the Soviet Unions civil population greeted the german army as a liberation army. try to stop and think about what that means.. and that was only after 20 years of "communism".. then try to imagine what another 50 years like those would do to the rest..

you think you were screwed?!! well, we fought with Germany from the beginning, as no western countries were willing to guarantee our borders or help us if something happened. we fought until Stalingrad, and back. then, in the summer '44 stupid us (but mostly some politicians) tried to salvage the little which could be salvaged, country's territorial integrity, and switched the sides against our hearts, fighting for Allies from then on until the end of the war.

Romania's allied war effort was the third or fourth, after Russia and US and maybe Great Britain, and we shortened the war with at least 6 months.

and what that brought us?

russian army entered the allied Romania as in an occupied country: a tidalwave of killing and destruction and rape. after the war, we were not acknowledged as a co-belligerent party (in our face being accepted as co-belligerents France and Italy and such, even if they did nothing compared with our allied war effort), large chunks of our country were given to Russia and Bulgaria, we were completely abandoned into the hands of russians, the great famine from '46 (as russians took all our food) in which tens of thousands died, our whole industry was dismantled by same russians and taken away, followed by another 45 years in which we had to sell everything almost for free in order to pay them the "war compensations" we "owed" them.

45 years of living in a labor camp! you have not the slightest idea how were those 45 years..

and that's the same for all the other eastern countries. ask poles, which started the war actually, who do they hate more, the reds or the blacks, and you might get a surprise answer from them..

as for flying, this is a game. I do prefer to fly Axis airplanes, as we flew them during the war, but I have no problem flying even russian planes as an Ally, when there's a need for balance. and I have friends from all around the world, which whom I fly with, or against.

a game is just a game, and each and everyone of you should never ever forget that!

Hitler did these things, remember, he only attacked those countries which were pre-war German/Austrio-Hungarian, until Germany was in turn attacked by France/England. He was restoring people and lands taken away by Versailles. Poland had been a country for less than 30 years, German for the previous 200. Checkoslavakia had not been a sovereign nation in I don't know how long, if ever. France and England were rightly concerned about their status in Europe if a strong Germany again rose.

The only real country with a legitimate invasion beef against Hitler would be the Soviet Union. The rest is just propaganda...

Sarcasm, I hope. Otherwise this is some sad, scarily disillusioned stuff. Belgium, Netherlands, Norway? They were German by right?

All these years and I never realized that Uncle Adolf was simply a victim of a huge misunderstanding.......:rolleyes:

Some of these posts are so scary/funny that it's not clear what the authors motivations are- delusional or trolling.

Hitler was a gangster, the rule of law in Germany was trashed by the Nazis and it spread throughout their corrupt rule of the nations they vanguished. His regime used the genuine grievances of the over-reaching reparation demands of the allied forces at the Treaty of Versailles, together with the misplaced belief among many in the German military that they had been betrayed in WW1, to poisonous ends and created a paranoid mindset among the German population that the rest of the world was against them.
Hitler knew what he was doing and was ruthless in his execution of the operations he undertook to reach his goal, whether it was eliminating real or imagined political enemies as well as his mobilisation of his armed forces for wars of conquest. Goering admitted as much after the war when he described the ease with which they motivated the common folk of the population for war by creating the perception of impending peril.
To fall into a 'Hitler was evil therefore Stalin was good' or vice-versa is naive, they were both murderous despots who caused unbelievable harm to those under their governments.
Eisenhower and Roosevelt judged the mood in the USA was not present for continued war in Europe against the USSR and they still had to defeat the Japanese.
The British were exhausted and bankrupt- their energies were more focused on improving the plight of their families at home than looking for another fight. Things rapidly settled down into the cold war with the nations caught between east and west bearing the worst of the suffering.

I believe perhaps the most telling thing that illustrates the difference in the cultures of the major nations that fought in WW2 was what happened to the leader of Britain. He was voted out in the general election and a Labor government was voted in- no armed coup, no 'night of the long knives', no purges, no house arrest.

By the way, I mostly fly online on the ATAG server and tend to fly red to balance the armies.... plus I'm rubbish in a 109 and can't bomb very well.

I honestly give up. I surrender. This is stupid.

Wow......

Yes it is, mate. Saying that Churchill was to blame for the wat against Germany is like saying that Thatcher was to blame for the war against Argentina.

Declaration of war against the Nazi Germany was a defensive act based on what kind of havoc was going on in the Third Reich from 1933 onwards.

This has nothing to do with what planes anyone prefers in a flight simulator in 2012 but I find some posts here hilarious. Yours No.5 is quality. :o As Blakduk says, I can't believe these opinions are ment seriously. People have got very very very short memory.

In international politics there's a known axioma that any country is following its own national interest (which, sometimes is not really its own, but an internal or even external 3rd private party interest.. read corporate and illegal associations interests actually, presented to the masses in a form which greatly appeal them, in order to get their full support.. and nothing better to fulfill this role than the nationalistic card, the ancestral "it's us or them") and to expect anything else would be simply folly..

sure thing, when right international laws and rights coincide with their own interest, they'll follow it claiming it out loud that they are acting the literal "international laws", but as soon as those laws can not be used to cover their own interests, they won't have second thoughts any moment, and just do what they really want to do, sometimes even claiming that they are actually acting in the "spirit" of the international laws and righteousness..

it was the same in antiquity, and from then on, nothing really changed, not in society or forms of government, not in justice or laws, nor in national or international politics..

now regarding germany.. do you consider the german people as stupid? do you really think they followed Hitler blindly in '39? there was a huge national frustration caused by the way their country was treated after WWI, huge chunks of their country being taken away and being forced to pay immense war compensations, which economically suffocated their country.. what would you do in their place?continue to suffer and be humiliated, down on your knees, or stand up and fight or die for your right to an all sides acceptable solution at least?

without this national widespread grievance, actually induced by the rapacious behavior of the WWI victors which sought a personal solution in their favor rather than a real solution equitable for all involved parts, Hitler would have gained no support, and would have achieved nothing.

you know what the old saying goes.. what you sow is what you reap..

beside this, as we all know, the victory is always written by the victors.. as romans were saying, vae victis.. and they really did knew what they were talking about.. isn't it?!!

there is talking around the internet that actually Poland was behaving aggressively, knowing itself backed up by France and Great Britain (which in turn were actually "supporting" Poland because it fit their ruthless interest, which was to have Germany react and start the war, providing them a splendid casus belli to use it by pushing the nationalistic lever of a "right war" in order to gain the support of their people). Remember the germans claiming that actually polish border guards attacked german border guards? of course, pointed as german propaganda after the war.. but one has to ask himself why actually germany would need to masquerade this, as the following point is a much stonger casus belli for them than this one.. same thing US did to get itself into WWII, by pushing Japan to unacceptable negotiation terms, and when seeing that the japans were stubbornly continuing the negotiations, cutting them completely off by stopping all american petrol exports to Japan, practically putting them to chose between an economic death and war? Not to mention about the rumors about Pearl Harbor, with strong resemblance into Vietnam's casus belli (Gulf of Tonkin incident) and.. 9/11 ?!!

there are also rumors about atrocities and mass executions of german population from the old german territories given to Poland after WWI, presented by the germans with documents and pictures? again pointed out as german propaganda after the war.. but one has to ask himself why most of the german concentration camps were actually placed into.. Poland?!!

and on and on.. german widespread hate against jewish and the talking about the british-jewish WWI pact (jews would help brits win WWI by dragging US along and ruining german economy, in exchange of the british support for creating the Israel state into the heart of the arab territories.. sounds familiar to you?)and in-between wars jewish anti-german economic propaganda, which in turn pumped up german's population hate against the jews and responded by boycotting jewish stores through the whole Germany (again, does it not rings a bell?!!), claims that most of the holocaust actually never happened as actually germans had never had mass execution camps and the pictures of skeletal living or dead bodies were in fact dysentery victims, claims about western allied mass murdering camps (Eisenhower's Death Camps - killing 1.7 million german war prisoners through starvation which were refused PoW status and given the DEF status to get them outside Haga's convention's wing, and the scandal with Patton which bluntly refused to do it, and released at once all the german prisoners his army had, sending them at home), the facts about the eastern post-war slave labor camps from Russia, the inhuman earth-leveling bombardment of german cities and civil population with mass murder weapons (phosphor bombs), the Nurenberg farce trial (see Donitz case in which, despite all their efforts, they couldn't sentence him to death for crimes against the humanity due to the Germany's submarine war, as even allied high ranked commanders as Chester Nimitz testified against it and in Doenitz'es favor) this, etc., etc.

of course, all denied, unrecognized and pointed out as german propaganda after the war.. as I've said before, the history is written by the victors, but yet.. in the XXIst century is a little bit harder to hide the truth and cover all the traces than it was before..

it might be just propaganda as allies are claiming .. and again, it might not, and be just post-war victors' propaganda.. as most of the times, the truth might even actually be somewhere in-between (oh, the gray shades of life).. we have not lived those times, so we have to dig up the truth from all the evidence we can get our hands on, and be able to use our logic to discern between words and facts.. just like when studying ancient history or.. a legal case :)

a sane mind has always to wonder, and look everywhere and listen to everything in its pursue of the knowledge of truth..

qui prodest?!!

too bad your sig doesn't reflect that thought though....

really?!! and on which facts are you supporting your above statement, please?

the fact of your sig ;)

go figure....

assuming my computer's hardware can not have anything to do with this, I thought it must be about my ignore list.. and you've just confirmed it..

but..

are you saying this because you are in it, and you think you do not deserve to be in it, or because I do have an Ignore list at all?

and let me tell you right from the start, as you've just saw, I do still check those persons' posts and read them when they do deserve to be read. I just think 10 times before answering them, because I do not want to be dragged down in flame wars.

and let me tell you another fact, those persons are in there not because they do not share my believes and thoughts, but because they prove to not be reasonable persons with which you can have a mature argument. that's all, and hence their presence in that list.

it is not me who put them in there, but their own actions!

Actually it was quite clear in the place... no mistaking it, but, I suppose that what happens when one chooses to ignore, eh


oh, I think you mean debate not argument, no argument is mature - that's what starts wars in the first place, that being a lack of reasoned ability to see all sides equally


and if you are going to "check" doesn't that preclude the use of an "ignore list" in the first place and is what you have listed in your sig really necessary? It seem like a really childish item to have in a sig... something else which also starts wars, that being childishness (so now you edit your "list") and it was actually you who put them there (see my second point)

lol. "additional voices" ftw.:-P

lol +1

yes, I meant debate, sorry, I'm not a native english speaker, and I've learnt it all by my own ear (I've studied russian and german in highschool).

and no, it actually help me prevent wars by discouraging aggression from a party who sees it in my signature, and thinks I can not see his replays to my posts, therefore drops the matter dead.

it's called psychological warfare :)

and well, your post just convinced me have another look at the famous list: split it in two accordingly with the actions which got them in there in the first place, and reconsidering some from the chorus by checking their latest posts in this forum.

PS: btw, your place still remains at the head of the additional voices, and it's only your position expressed in this thread (regarding WWII involved parties real actions) which prevents you to be promoted to stardom (due to your whine-bashing posts).. yet :)

but there is no need for warfare of any kind, this is a forum... and your errm, ploy, doesn't work because people now know you check - enjoy

nah, I don't really think they'll see these few posts in here :)