Let's get constructive?
 

After reading all negative emotions in the update thread 2 considerations came to my mind:

1) Making slow steps due to bad issues is not a problem. Loyal customers can wait for some time if they see progress in the right direction. Setting wrong priorities is a problem though. Management starts with setting priorities.

2) According to theory of systems any system without feedback will die very soon. If Luthier does not get clear, strong and ruthless understanding about community priorities from the forums or via BlackSix, IL-2 project will be a dead system soon.

Three cases that clearly show that Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:
- coop case (luthier still thinks coops work in spite of bugtracker #1 issue vote / or he is not informed properly) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...postcount=1910
- online crashes after October 2011 patch not set as #1 priority(with "we have not experienced crashes for months now in internal testing" in spring 2012)
- online sound lost for 3-4 months after May or June 2011 patch and not set as #1 priority.

Il2bugtracker set up by community is a great tool to check and fine-tune the priorities but it was not visited by Luthier for 2 months already (at least under his forum name to encourage reporters).

Trust is 99% lost as we can see from comments in the update thread. This will definitely lead to the sequel failure, especially if it is released in a new field of MMO(more new code and bugs).

Let's get constructive.
Can anything be done to get trust back and save the company?
1) Get priorities right. E.g. take top 30 most voted bugs/issues from the il2bugtracker.com and fix 1-2 of them every 2 weeks with beta patches. Yes, not be lazy to assemble patches every 2 weeks in spite of the fact it takes time of chief-developer. When 20 bugs out of 30 are fixed, add another 20 to the list and repeat.

2) Fix feedback channel. Kindly ask B6 to present 5 top forum trends (discussed issues) to Luthier on weekly basis and report results on the forums. Sometimes bosses in Russia do not like to hear bad news and are getting angry when subordinates disturb them with them. In this case it takes courage to meet a boss every week and say unpleasant things about wrong priorities, new bugs, ets. But someone has to start doing this to enable feedback channel. Without feedback the system is dead (see link to coop case above).

Please show some real understanding of the situation and practical steps forward. Anything less then that will not help any more. Too little, too late.

Can this be done? This is only BlackSix's and Luthier's responsibility to take this responsibility and do it whatever the cost is. I do not think I can help more with bugtracker, FMB popularisation or whatever. Nothing will help if a company is producing something customers do not want instead of delivering what is wanted most (and voted!).

If you have better constructive ideas please add. I hope B6 will send a link to the thread to Luthier and they both frankly share their ideas on how to get trust back too.

PS. Sorry that I am not around very often. Meanwhile started to learn RC flying in a sim )

+1000000
I´m completely agree with you and your proposal

Its a very good post, agreed with all points.

Will it make a penny's worth of difference to how the devs work and communicate with us?

Will it change the order of changes and bug fixes?

i pray with all my heart they listen.

Very nice try.

As said, nice thought, but I don't know how long I can hold my breath for though.......

Great Ataros, only one adding:
I would be pleased if they would just fix one or two of any of the bugs reported on a weekly basis, may it be missing Stuka horn or wrong directions of levers in the cockpit, 100 octane or whatever. theres enouph little bugs to make a whole year full of Beta Patches. Continous step by step working on the sim will get the community back to business. Greetz Allons!

Really well said!

So true Ataros.

To me it seems that they are getting to the point of no return and very soon can see themselves unemployed and their name ruined as a developer. I hope they will listen (but history has shown the opposite) and get this turned into a success. I hope it will.

+1 But that is why we have been testing alpha patch an sending crash dumps , They have got more then enough dumps to keep them busy for years. this is anouther useless thread .;)

Blooby hell some one that makes sense!!!!

Well put.

Cheese

Yeah - good post Ataros. Major kudos for even attempting to be constructive in the current situation.

The B6 as community liaison strategy has unfortunately been handled in a half-arsed manner right from the outset (and that's not due to B6).

All too often he is 'not authorised' to tell us what we want to know. This is down to Luthier - there is no point at all designating someone to be the communications frontman and then NOT giving him anything meaningful to communicate.

The coding delays may have been unavoidable, but the sad truth is that if they had got a really good, timely and honest communications strategy in place from early on they could have avoided a lot of bad feeling.

Right now, I don't think the situation can be remedied. The damage is done. They have shot their bolt. The only way out is to finally produce something decent with the patch. Hopefully (:rolleyes: sorry, but really...:rolleyes: ) if the engine is fixed then other improvements can be made in the months ahead at a faster rate.

Someone writing sense at the Banana forum? blimey I must ahve missed the apocalypse!!!

Great post and fully agree - a lot of chaps have been and are still behind the developers however it is obvious to see that the community will only hold together for so long before people move on.
V

Well stated and presented Ataros.
Can you translate that to Russian and post it
on the "Ru" forums?

hows that? :grin:

Very nice post Ataros!

100% percent behind you!


~S~

Bravo Ataros! The most sensible post I've seen in months.

i agree 100%

Do you know why I don't hang out here?

It's because the game isn't any more fun now then it was in March 2011.

I would love for the developers to follow your suggestions.

Well put Artaros. I hope they will come to understand that the way they have been doing things must change. I really do not want to see them fail.

Well done, Atoros!
You are seriously right with your analysis, 1C is often not 1+
All in all it is not looking so professional as the management should be. I am saying this, because in general I am still fine with the sim, (I love it!)
but more than the most known bugs, I feel botherd by the lack of reliable informations!

+1
My thoughts exactly.

Great post, hope it doesnt fall on deaf ears...

The only thing i see helping this community is for Luthier to man up and present us with information directly himself. Real meaningful info. Not this charade through Blacksix. i think we deserver that much at least. Too busy to post, working all hours without holidays etc etc is simply not believable any more. You can't work that hard for that long with so little progress.

Let us know what is really going on.. warts and all, that is the only thing that will restore any faith in this dev team.

Spot on. QFT & 100 % at your side Ataros. I won't add anything because your post is already perfect in my point of view.

@Mr Schevchenko, I always wish you all the luck, but this time , my wish is that you read Ataro's post and have the greatness of recognizing such a good diagnosis you've been gifted. It not only pinpoints the problems, but also gives you solutions.

Not that I disagree in principle ... but I disagree with the bug/feature selection. Because - looking at the current Top 30 at bugtracker - all are either minor features or aircraft systems issues or typical online issues. I haven't found a single gameplay or single player relevant issue there and two gameplay-relevant things in the Top 50. That's a predictable result - an online platform will always produce results heavily biased in favor of online issues, but totally ignoring the gameplay and offline part (which is by far the least developed ATM) is only going to enhance the problems and generate more bad blood.

Single player is going the way of the Dodo, havent you heard? :rolleyes:

Nah ... that's what those simple-minded folks want to tell you. Don't believe every overrated hype. ;)

Black Six please read this thread .
 

Top Post Atros 100% behind you on this. In addition a Campaign genorator for single and multi-play would also add to the game especialy for those who do not take part in multi-play ,iL2 has a very large following of single mission players who favour campaigns over other aspects of the game & a third party Campaign Genorator was used by many Squads to create Missions for on-line wars .I can only see these features pulling people back to the series and increasing sales.

Great post Ataros!

A very well thought out post.
I support the majority of what you have stated except item #3. While I understand your statements of procedure to support your claim of "Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:" . . . there is no empirical data that shows that Luthier does not receive the information - ie., he may receive it from alternate sources.

The priorities listed via the bug report are not IMHO, all the issues that are on the table to be weighed to create a priority list. For example, how can bugs be resolved if they have not yet gotten the engine to work optimally?

My position is: that this is a priority that would circumvent any other implied priorities. All other priorities are placed in drawer B while items in drawer A are being resolved.

Other than that I think that your post has much merit.

I would go further (as a prior IT person and major project leader) and state that: It is not whether issues are being corrected (because we know that they are), but rather - managing customer expectations and utilizing appopriate methods of communicating. When dates are specified, expectations are raised and those dates are expected to be met. Sometimes issues arise wherein those dates are impacted and they slip. BUT . . . . . this cannot become the norm. It is the management of expectations through communication that is extremely important in business to realize business goals.

Cheers.

That was very well written Catseye and I sincerely
hope that the right person reads it, along with what
Ataros wrote.

Thank You

Excellent post!I truly wish for new approach to the bugs issue.Please let us see the changes, inform us what has been done and is going to be done in detail, and for heaven sakes please open a sub forum for the sequel, I think is clear from the last update thread that the majority of the people here are mad because they are given pictures of a game that has not been released while there is so much to be done with a game released more than a year ago.

And herein lies the crux, me thinks. We've got two examples of outgoing and communicative project manager, Oleg himself and Jason from 777 Studios, and hold them up as shining examples of what we'd like to have, too. But luthier isn't like them - he's the antipode. I remember a statement of him that fits like the notorious fist on the eye socket: He's the kind of developer who has his vision and ideas and would greatly prefer to lock himself up in the Q.T. and not see anyone else until it's ready. I don't think I'm leaning too far out of the window when I guess that having to do any kind of PR or "customer contact" is a step far outside his comfort zone which he tries to evade as much and as often as possible.

:grin:

1+

I have to agree that it's good to see a constructive post for a change.

I am not altogether sure that the avalanche of negative diatribes is all bad for the sim though. It dose show that there is a fanatical, addicted even, player base behind the game and given that - reasonableness and patience is hardly likely to be at the forefront. But that is far better for Luthier than complete indifference which really would be the kiss of death.

If the next patch is successful as I am sure it will then most of the negativity will evaporate like a snowball in hell.

I also think that once the major issues are sorted out in CloD then everyone will be clamouring for the sequel and there will be no complaints that it is already well underway.

I think it would be a mistake if Luthier is taking the unpleasantness coming from the forum too much to heart and that is why so little information is coming out. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't so why not just fix the code and shut everyone up once and for all (some hope)?

Given that the sim is far more about historical re-enactment than just a shoot them down sort of game then the OP is dead right and the developers need to look at what the customer base is asking for other than just a game that works as far as they are concerned. Good though that may be.

I think the closed mouth approach has divided the community (at least as far as this forum goes) to such a degree that it may not recover. Whether the sim is ultimately fixed or it isn't, there are going to be a lot of "I told you so" comments from one group or the other. Many here are so entrenched in their opinions they can't hear the others opinion as anything but whining or unflagging support. Solid info might save the day. Maybe it isn't too late.

I agree with the original poster's PoV.

Ateros deserves a salute! Clear headed and well put sir.

The best post on this forum forever!
Except forget the RC part, do the real thing :)

Thank you all for your comments.

I agree that il2bagtracker.com does not represent offliners' opinion very well. On the other hand offliners' still need internet to contact Steam. This means they visit forum at least sometimes. Please if you are an offliner, select key bugs that bother you at the bugtracker and add links to your forum signature inviting everyone to vote. I am sure onliners will vote for many of them too, e.g. AI fixes are needed for COOP and general MP missions too.

Someone has to review the AI issues reported on the bugtracker after every patch. After current alpha launch I was reading here that AI got worse in some cases because some radio commands were removed from the menu. Although these commands were not working properly in many cases they were very useful to trick AI into doing something in other cases. Thus their removal got things worse. I am not sure this is properly reported and documented in the bugtracker and if not, the devs may think that they fixed the issues by removing not working commands. This is again a feedback issue. Please go to bugtracker and review these issues.

I do not think we have any better way to get feedback from the community on what the priorities are than the bugtracker. It may not be used now very often because of game-engine issues but will be more useful after the engine is working.

PS. Overquoting is a bad forum sin :grin:

I'm an offliner and my major gripe is the mission recorder isn't like the 1946 type, where it auto runs and you can save a great mission @ the end and watch it later, from any point of view. more a feature change than a bug, but a BIGGY!

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/297

Bugs i have is mainly to do with the AI -

(1) The defiants AI is really weird! when attacked from the rear it climbs! why? :confused: The defiant was designed to bank left or right to allow the gunner full view of the enemy @ 6 oclock low. Not only that but the gunner doesn't target the closest aircraft :confused: and ALL gunners AI is totally wacked except for ace ?? :confused:

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/296

I like creating missions and replaying them but lack of a suitable mission recorder and wacked AI has put a dent in that.


Also, it would REALLY COOL if after landing, trucks race out and the aircraft is refueled and rearmed to go again .. OR pilot jumps out and runs to nearest aircraft to continue the fight.

but if worse comes to worst and the company goes defunct, i hope the sourse code could be made available to modders to continue the effort.

.
.

Here is a link to all issues of AI and communications category filtered.

Please provide more specific details on what was fixed and what not in the recent alpha patch there. You can add this link to your sig to promote voting for AI bugs.

Use a short link service like https://bitly.com/ to get shorter URLs for your sig. Forum sigs are limited in character length including URLs.