an idea to turn bob into true virtual reality
 

dear oleg check this out:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

it might seem like 6dof at work but actually theres more into it, take a look at the part where it shows the stadium, notice that when the camera closes to the screen the fov grows, just like looking through a real window, thats the reason the discs have such realistic looking

im sure that being the 1c team so innovative and knowing youll include 6dof in bob youll set zoom as an option to an axe of 6dof so when you get close to the screem zooms in reducing fov

all i ask from you is doing this in reverse zoom out when you get close to the screen in order to get this amazingly effect created by johny lee

the adavantages of this idea are ideal for a wwii air combat:

a real working gunsight reticle that will always keep the same apparent size, that of a fighter at 100m

a correct and realistic size of planes at every distance, we all have wonder how really big those birds were

a realistic judgement of speeds, being the sizes right your brain will be able to judge speed instintively, those of planes and bullets

getting rid of distortion in wide views and being able to increase fov with no distortion to an ideal limit or maybe 140º

this is discussed farther in the ubisoft forums:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/2691094436

I'm happy to announce the Zoo is now completely moved to this forum. :grin:

I am certainly not happy about it

New Ideas are just great aren't they?
:rolleyes:

Here is a great invention as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFFwHJnfQ58

A lot of interesting innovations come from people who have taken existing proven technology's and present them in a cohesive package that demonstrates the potential for their use in future interactive media endeavors.

Despite the fact that all these individual bits of technology and "optical effects" are known to many, I have not seen them used in the Wii console yet...(or many PC games).

I think he presents a good case...and judging by the amount of people who keep reposting this clip "over and over again" their are others who find his ideas intriguing too.

ROFLMAO

OMG! Now THAT is a useful invention!

:lol:

hahahaha :grin:

Agreed. I thought this forum was not about bringing this type of crap over from the Ubi forums...

Were you on vacation for the last 4 or 6 weeks?

the idea raiiid mentions has some merit, but his poor english makes it very difficult for him to bring it across coherently. right now the ubizoo fanboy attitude a lot of you are showing in your acrimonious replies here is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

if any of you are actually interested in how the "johny lee system" for the Wii differs from our current use of 6DoF in flightsims, skimp through the ubi thread raiiiiid linked to, and pay particular attention to the replies in it made by "Lurch1962", he is an astronomer by profession and knows his optics. there clearly is a difference in how this new visual effect works in SIMULATING what we see from a cockpit in real life, compared to how it currently is implemented in il2.

will it be possible to implement something like this in BoB ? i have no idea, but it surely is worth a closer look to try and improve realism in future flightsims. arnt we all here to try and get the best possible flightsim that current technology can provide ?

if you have a counter argument as to why it might not work, then make your argument based on facts, dont bitch and moan just because you dont like the poster and imeanwhile with your own behavior turn this into another zoo.

I guess it's our own fault. If we stop throwing table scraps over the fence at the zoo maybe they'll stop following us back here.

Hear Hear! The only "zoo" like activity I see is the replies. This is certainly simple head tracking like trackIR but implemented in such a way as to give a more immersive effect.

That's a little hard to swallow

Maybe, Urufu, you and zapatista don't know raaaid?

I do. Lots of folks here do too

For the record, go to Ubi and look up posts that raaaid started or was in, that I was part of too, and defended him in. Look under the names "Chuck_Older" and "BBB462cid", and see how every time, I defended him or told the mob that I couldn't stand them ganging up on him

Then tell me about how self-righteous y'all are

I said I wasn't happy about the Zoo being here. That's ALL I said. Don't like it that I said that?

Tough titty said the Tiger to the Kitty

This is nothing more that 6DOF TIR. The only difference is the "world" that the guy modelled was all very close in distance from the viewer. IL-2 distances are either about a meter or less, or a few hundred to several hundred meters (usually). If you had a big monitor, a TIR, the 6DOF TIR mod from AAA (or just FSX), and a cockpit that was big enough to run around in, you could make your own immersive 3d video. BTW, why all the hostilities? I must be missing something here. That guy's work is relevant, but it's really targetted for wii console developers. TIR has already implemented this "immersion" for the PC realm. It's just that most people sit at a computer rather than stand and bob around its monitor.

For those not liking ubizoo, Czech out the Simhq forums.

Wellcome raiid!

Looks like good stuff.

BoB coming to the Wii?

Is it true?

Winter beer was better!

A little while ago I started to participate in this forum again (after a short break) and I received a few (off-handed) "Ubizoo" comments in replay to something I said (they didn't bother to think about my comment)...I'm not the smartest, and I'm not the funniest but I like to get involved and if I can I try and help someone. I have been posting here ever sense the banana first opened for business but sometimes I like to take a break from one forum and I visit another. Now I used to post quite frequently at SimHQ and Mission4Today (under another name) but I'm starting to wonder what kind of reception I could expect from people (if anyone knew who I was) if I was to get involved again...

Frankly I think that their are some people who assume that anyone who participates in the Ubi community can be treated without respect...it's either that or they where just trolling for a flame, and I'm embarrassed to admit that on more then one occasion I have fallen pray to a trolls bait.

Yawn

thats what it might look like on the surface, but i dont think that is the case. have a look at what somebody who understands optical effects said about why it is different to our current 6DoF from track-ir.

point being, that for most desktop users (with monitors ranging from 20 to 30') this suggested slight variation on the current 6DoF track-ir implementation, would more closely SIMULATE what a pilot would see when he moves his head in a real aircraft cockpit,

or to explain this a slightly different way ....

to me that sounds like an excellent idea, and he explains it clearly. i suspect that those who think it is no different from a track-ir are looking at this from the "spectator" viewing perspective, rather than the 1e person view that a user has from within the sim itself (when being the pilot who moves their head inside the virtual cockpit).

if there are other posters here who know enough about optics, and its implementation in the physics of modern game engine design, then they can possibly make valid counter arguments. right now all that seems to be happening is that people either dont understand how this would work, or have personal grudges against the original poster. i have no idea who raiiid is but the post he made here has a valid suggestion, and half the people here are probably escapees from the zoo. if you want this forum to be different, then all it takes for people here to act... err differently.


a version of this is simple to implement to the pc if people already use a track-ir, and remember that since this can be done with just a few lines of code, it could be implemented as an OPTION, where people select either "standard 6DoF" or something like "Wii enhanced 6DoF". you dont want to use it and prefer the old viewing system, then just select the old version in your setup options, but dont bust other il2 users chops if they find ways to further improve this sim.

we are also currently still referring to this as a "Wii system effect" here, but that is only because it was first brought to our attention by a Wii user on youtube, and at least other posters here will know what is being discussed. the visual effect however doesnt need a Wii console, and could be implemented in any other game as long as the user has some type of 3D tracking system to monitor the movement of the player (track-ir, freetrack, etc..)

why is it my reputation so bad, i proved along all these years im a good person, dont lie bully or hate

is it just cause im different, well i woundt have had this idea if i hadnt spent 7 years looking for flaws in perspective

who tries to prove for 7 years reality is wrong? a loony but just for that deserve to be attacked?

this idea took me 7 years to reach it, has some merit and you can be sure in the future all game will deploy this and yes i was the 1st to have this idea not johny lee, i was posting it in ubi forums before the wiimote even existed

cid its true, youve always defended me so you can suppose how i feel when i heard you saying im from a zoo and shouldnt be here, in the future i wont trust anyone whom i cant see his face like in any forum, you protected me against the mob, now you joined the mob

i let oleg know about my idea, im done here i wish you get the police state you loan for, im back to ubizoo, i just got banned there for posting off topic and now theres an ot section, guess im a pioneer, bye bye you dont deserve me

btw thanks zapatista, the idea would have remain unclear if it wasnt because of you

hell im reading this thread over and over just to find out a suppose friend stubbing me in the back i think im gonna stop posting completely in any forum, just for the record show a post of my 6 years online life that is hate speech that could have justified that hate towards me

theres no point in making friends online, 1 out of 4 persons is a psicopath and you need to see their eyes to know, im just a harmless delusional, when at ubi they ask for me link to this and tell them raid decided not to hang around anymore in any forums,raaaid has just died

Hey, Raaid,

just for you to know, I really like this idea and find it impressive, but I'm not good enough in english to enter such a debate. But you have my support, it would be cool to be able to swing the view by moving around the monitor.

well i think raaaid just resurrected, i got really upset about former critiziceing me for no reason since i recall him defending me and took his advises to ponder

former i really hope to have misunderstood you and you have nothing personal against me and mentioning my reputation refering to that of a loony not of a person who deserves to be attacked or not be here

man i gurantee you every time i friend turns his back on me im down for several days and i regarded you as my friend, i recall clearly good points about you as your saying your always being fair with me what was actually true and defending me

i hope your comment was due to your leaving ubi due to dislike and this becoming a second ubi, not becuase of me, but what we are all united for is our love for wwii, you cant choose the people yo gather with online, for that you have real life

I don't know about optics per se, but I do know about programming 3d graphics (I've done this professionally). TrackIR is an input device, nothing else, and it is up to application (i.e. game) to do something meaningful with it. This "standard 6DOF" vs. "wii 6DOF" is really BS. There is only 6DOF (6DOF: six degrees of freedom, e.g. x, y, z, axis translations and rotations); what matter is how the motion inputs are interpreted. If the app use Z axis motion (into the screen) as nothing more than to zoom in/out down the line of site, that's not 6DOF: it's 5DOF with Z axis magnification, i.e. 5DOF with decreased/increased field of view (FOV) . I do believe FSX got it right: axis translations actually moves your point of view in 3D space while your FOV remains constant, such that objects very close to you grow in size and objects very far away will not change in size (trust me, I speak from experience here). What matters alot in 3D rendering and "motion immersion" is the initial FOV: smaller is better, up to certain point. If it's too big, smaller motions (relative to the modelled world scale) don't give you that feeling of motion. I'd bet that wii demo used about a 60 degree FOV, which IMO is borderline too small but give a very nice motion effect: 90 is more common.

I own a TIR and have experienced it with IL-2 and FSX. With FSX, you literally can lean over to get a better view out the side of the canopy and it's very realistic (just like that standium shot in that wii demo). I've tried the IL-2 6DOF AAA mod and abandoned it for it seems more a nuciance than an enhancement (it's probably 5DOF with zoom). BTW, IL-2 currently supports only 2DOF trackIR motion: pitch (y-axis rotation) and yaw (x-axis rotation) which is far from the immersion of true 6DOF. I'm pretty sure SOW BOB already has got 6DOF TIR motion right: this stuff is nothin' new.

that would be solved asigning zoom and forth motion of head at the same time to the 6th axe of 6d0f

think of this as something automatic to always show a realistic angular size of objects not zoom

"I'd bet that wii demo used about a 60 degree FOV"

maybe im misunderstanding you here but this guy used a variable fov,

you can see that in the stadium part, this in order to achieve a looking through a window effect, notice when he gets close to the screen you see more of the stadium, just like a real window

thats the idea match zoom adecuately with distance to screen and knowing the size of the screen give a realistic size of objects by the window effect, that keeping the forth motion of head normally assigne to the 6th axe of 6dof

I'm curious raaaid, do you own a TIR? Ever used FSX with TIR?

I think that most of Lurch1962 explanation borders on BS (a 140 degree FOV rendering would look like a bad hallucination). I work for an areospace corp, and I've designed and developed 3D visualization applications using OpenGL. If you could step into my office, I could show you on my whiteboard what is really going on with this stuff and then you'd understand.

well your experience on 3d vs my 7 years study of perspective

lurch explains it very well:

if you take the 90º fov and put the crosshair on a corner of the screen it will make an ellipse, but if you look at the ovalated cross hair from a determined point, say 30cm from your screen more or less, youll see the ellipse as a perfect circle, try it

with this method distortion is inexistent however the fov

i dont own a trackir nor tried fsx 6dof but i need not this in order to understand how it works, in fact i invented independely 6dof and by this i mean i was posting in the ubi forums about a 3 axes tracker at least 2 year prior to its apperance in the market and i bet with this will be the same, i wonder wholl get the glory and the money for this idea

i dont want to be mean but your suggestion that this wii video uses a 60º fov proofs you havent understood my idea


the idea is to make the screen appear as a real window via head tracker, as simple as that

raaaid, you don't have a reputation as being a "bad person". I've never seen you say anything bad to anyone; in fact this "you don't deserve me" business is the harshest thing I've ever seen you post

You *do* have a reputation for having not thought through ideas and using shaky principles to 'prove' them, though...this has been shown, for years, at UbiSoft and, according to you actually, on various physics forums. You rush through your concepts, and you don't consider all parameters. That's a big part of what you've shown over seven years of your study

I did not make that situation come to pass; you did. I'm sorry you didn't make good science on your many ideas, but it's the facts and no matter how sorry I am, it doesn't change that your ideas are usually based on flawed principles or else fail to take critical things into account. Even when you're not talking about sim applications.

Personally after the first dozen or so of these ideas of yours I stopped taking you seriously in any way. I just can't do it, I can't consider what you're suggesting as being relevant to the actual application you want in the sim. That's my experience over the years. I haven't seen anything from you that tells me that your ideas are achieving anything that we can't already have, or else trade one undesirable situation for a different but new one. I don't know how many years that is, but it's easily five.

I don't think you're a bad person; I think your ideas are flawed, and I think that's why they never seem to work out

well the only thing i ask for is in the future when every game include this feature that the future generations know this was developed by a guy thinking outside the box and as proof i was the 1st to have this idea search the ubizoo for "gunsight effect"

in fact this idea has brought back my interest in perspective, i got bored with it not finding any flaw in reality, but now i know how to render a perfect virtual wolrd on a screen im wondering how it could be done ZOOMED, because in the real world you can use binoculars and reality renders on your eyes, the flat surface, a perfectly correct zoomed image

Thanks Former_Older! I'm new around here and I was wondering this myself: now I know better. :cool:

i hope you are not implying by that my idea of which johny lee happen to have thought the same is bad

in fact almost 5 million people watch the johny lee video and watch those comments

its the public who decide not a single guy talking bad of others

this sooo easy to implement, the problem is so far just 2 persons have proved to understand the idea

do you still think the wii video used a 60º fov?if so you dont understand my idea, ask me what is it exactly what you dont understand

think of it as glass painting, the painting on the glass is only valid from a fixed point in space if you change that point you must change the painting accordingly

I think we can all agree (raaaid included) that raaaid is a bit of a nutter and can go off on the strangest tangents. In this case however he has made a good suggestion and most of you have dismissed it because of the messenger. There IS more going on in the johny lee video than simple 6DOF. I have experienced trackIR 6DOF in several games and I do see the difference. This should be completely doable, may take some more horsepower to run as more calculations will be going on to render the perspectives but this should be considered as an option. Don't dismiss a good idea just because raaaid has a history of bad ideas, all that says is that you can't read something and make up your own mind.

for those who say this is just 6dof jump to minute 3:35 and watch the stadium

if it was just 6dof the fov would remain constant but it grows accordingly to give the feeling of looking through a window, thats the reason the discs appear hyperealistic, just with 6dof you wouldnt achieve such a realistic feeling

from looking to a flat screen to looking trough a window, dear oleg if you want to try this, 5 million glad people cant be wrong, just equal fov of the game with fov which the screen takes from your eyes and let 6dof work normally, this would be done by a extreamly simple trigonometric reason

there you have ultrarealistic vr just like in the video, i really hope you try this which cant take much time, all i ask in return is being able to enjoy my idea with my fauvorite game, just wathc the comments of those almost 5 millions who wathced that video

Yeah, I take it back. Not happy here. :rolleyes:

actually i just realized this idea will never be let through since when people asks for it to incorporate a zoom it will easily be proved this reality is flawed and therefore we are in some kind of dimensions lacking matrix, explanation here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...6/m/4711067556

...and I quote

"i wonder what does this prove that we lack dimensions or that we are in some flawed dream?

after 7 years research have i finally found a flaw in perspective and therefore in reality?"

Yeah, really? Maybe you could just confine this demented genius/internet troll shit to the Ubi-forum. Preferably the off-topic section.

B

you are insulting me

im pointing to a paradox if you want to implement a zoom into my idea

in fact this is quite relevant, as said next step would be zoom, but this runs into a paradox

actually theres also a flaw in the way 6dof has been implemented in every game, normal as everybody copies everybody:

its the lean issue:


if you lean 90º on reality you see the horizont leaned 90º and therefore vertical, but if you implement the leaned axe real time, 1:1, you will see the horizont leaned the 90º you leaned plues the 90º the tracker leans it, so its a total of 180º so leaning 90º with the way 6dof is actually implemented from your point of view the horizont appears upside down

so the leaning axeof 6dof is redundant and can be used for zoom, lean righ zoom in lean left zoom out, though as explained this leads to a curious paradox, but well zenon was tellin paradox long ago and nothing happened

This is what makes the Johnny Lee video so compelling:

1. The viewing projection is constructed from the head tracking input such that the image rendered on the monitor appears as if the viewer is looking through a window (instead of a monitor) into a virtual 3d world (and not only that, but that virtual world can poke itself through the window into our realm). The side effect of this is psychological: we perceive the virtual reality as if it really exists as part of the reality we're immediately experiencing all around us, i.e. as part of the room in which we are sitting.

Now this is a really cool effect, but it has major problems when it comes to sims and games in general. Consider:

2. Does the room your sitting in while you fly your P-51 belong as part of the experience of flying your P-51 (well, at least for those who have not constructed a sim-pit)?

3. Johnny Lee's 'window' is at a fixed position in the virtual 3d space: you can walk up to it but you can't go through it, nor does the virtual reality 'on the other side of the wall' exist beside you or behind you. So you say "why not move the window"? This will solve this problem, but it will ruin the "Johnny Lee" effect unless the monitor itself moves in a like manner.

So I take back most of my original posts. You can have a "wii 6DOF" which will make a sim/game seem like it exists within a realm beyond a window that your monitor has become (got to consider item 3 above may be a 'serious' limitation). But, when I'm in the cockpit of my F-6, I want to think that I'm actually in and surrounded by the aircraft (for which my TIR helps greatly), rather than feel like I'm sitting in front of my computer interacting with a F-6 through a window that just happens to be my monitor. The earlier comment I made about TIR and FSX that still stands: when in a cessina, as you lean over to look out the side window (of the aircraft, that is), the landscape opens up as you approach the window, just like in the wii demo. If you want a really cool 3D effect with your TIR that is available now, just get a 3 meter projector system to replace your monitor. You'll be barfing up dinner in no time (or at least someone else watching will). Enjoy!

You know what, that makes sense. It is a really cool effect but maybe does not have an application in flight simming. This should be interesting to see in an first person shooter though.

almost there, but no cigar yet :)

the primary aim of implementing "Wii 6DOF" in il2/BoB, is because it would correct a major error which currently exists in the way the virtual world we fly in is being displayed in a 7 year old game.

many people that watched the johny lee video get distracted by the game objects that seem to be floating in front of the screen, leave that aside for a moment and only look at what happens to the in-game world that you can see on the screen that johny lee is looking at. you will notice that ...
1) the buildings/people/aircraft on his gaming display do not change in size as the player leans/moves forward
2) when the player moves forward he is closer to the display screen, and the display screen therefore now occupies a larger part of his field of view, and accordingly the FoV widens and he can now see more of the in-game world (exactly as happens when in real life you walk closer to a window in your house)

that is the heart of the argument and what makes implementing this type of view system in il2/BoB so much better then what we have now (and which probably again will be implemented in BoB, because that is how most current games are designed).

right now with 6Dof in il2 people seem happy because they can move their head around in the cockpit and they get a less obstructed view out of the cockpit, but ....
- when your virtual pilot leans his head forward right now not only do the cockpit objects get closer and larger (which is normal), but also the external-to-the-plane-objects get larger and this is totally incorrect. for example if you are chasing a me109 at 200 meters and have him in your gunsight, by leaning forward in the cockpit and reducing your distance to the monitor by half (say from 60 to 30 cm), then the me109 has suddenly doubled in size ! (because if you half the distance to the viewed object, it now takes up 2x more of your FoV, and the object size being displayed on your screen has remained static, so it now looks 2x larger on your screen). in a real cockpit the size of that same me-109 should have remained unchanged.

with a "Wii 6DoF" your in cockpit objects would increase in size because they are close to the viewer which is normal (and in the Wii johny lee clip you see the floating balls he is looking at are getting larger as he gets closer to them), but for the distant objects you look at (external to the cockpit) those will stay the same size. most objects we interact with as virtual pilots in il2 are several hundred meters away, if not km's, and you leaning 20 or 30 cm closer to them shouldnt make a difference in the size you see them. which is why in the johny lee video the stadium he is looking at, and all the people in it, do not get larger as he gets closer to them.

right now in il2 for people using medium to large size computer monitors, we have the problem that if you set your FoV to correctly display your in-cockpit objects (ie the gauges and dials are the right size for the distance your eye is fro them), then external-to-the-cockpit-objects (like an aircraft at 200 meters) look significantly to small. similarly if you set your FoV to correctly display the size of a me-109 at 200 meters, then suddenly the normally cramped cockpit environment of the fighter you are flying in, has become a 3 seater and your cockpit gauges are way to big.

lastly, this Wii-6DoF will only give us the improvement we are after for medium/large desktop pc monitors which most people are currently using (and will be for the next 5 or 6 years), because we sit up to about a meter away from them, and our virtual pilots head (viewpoint) stays within 1m to 20/30 cm from the monitor. ultra large displays need different methods (see lurch's post). also be aware that this view system only works for the player, external spectators who watch the gamer playing do not get the same corrected perspective.

so with the Wii-6DoF system you can have your cake and eat it to, your in cockpit objects will be the correct size and you can lean closer to them to have a better look at them (or view around your cockpit struts for ex), but meanwhile external objects will remain unchanged in their size and those will still be correctly displayed.

"But, when I'm in the cockpit of my F-6, I want to think that I'm actually in and surrounded by the aircraft "


then you could try this window effect with 3 screen, whereever you looked you would be sorrounded by the virtual ultrarealistic world percieved trough windows

this is real 3d,to look to an ultrarealistic 3d rendetion not to a flat screen showing a full of flaws 3d that your brain perceive instantly as wrong

thats why every 3d rendition so far appears so unrealistic, its full of perspective wrongs, but in fact this system has not a single flaw(unless you zoom it) and even this must have a solution since if you can use binoculars in the real world it should be posibe to also do so in the virtual, im working on it

i you looked to this system with one eye closed your brain would think you are actually there, theres no a single difference between looking at the real world and looking at the rendetion

well 1c team can do two things copy everybody else with regards of 6dof or do the most realistic and reasonable

first leaning right and left is redundant, leaning in the real world is enough to see the virtual world leaned, if you lean as well the pilots virtual head is redundant and stupid, so this axe is free to use, logical then would be use it to zoom in and out, this would bring the problem that if you zoom double size and pan 180º the screen will have had run 360º but as it pans at double speed doesnt really matter

second correcting perspective to give a more relistic 3d, just keeping fov of the game and fov that screen takes from your eyes equal, thats all

the rest id do as has been implemented so far

though probably the best thing to do would be please evrybody with many options of the way 6dof is implemented,
edit:

i just realized this would be great for airliner pilots since theyd see a real size runway on simulations,but militars keep away from my idea, btw can i protect my idea from militars using it?