At what point..
 

Im not looking to flame or trolling..simple question..at some point is it likely or feasible that some designers come in and really take over and fix this game? It just seems a half year has passed on promising graphics fixes..and they just dont work. At some point, it would seem you have to really consider if the devs can fix this thing.

Please be seated. Chivas will be with you in a moment.:-P

My understanding is that it's a programming problem, not a design one, programming problems can be very hard indeed.

My thoughts exactly, I would delay the next installment of this game if it meant more of the team been switched to this and getting it fixed first.

Kaspersky topic scanner
 

- Warning - the boot sector of this thread appears to be infected by : SobigwHiner.trollyan.I.loveyou.kiss.m.A / stealth version 2

:lol:

You should do it. Corporate types pay us no mind. Just do it._

Well, I meant to say programmers. I do think its a legitimate question. As with anything in life, some are more capable than others. I'd like to think it will all be fine and good, but really, after so long, my doubts grow. I hope I'm wrong, as the game is so far visually quite wonderful, just not quite so playable.
Jaguars are great looking cares, they just fall apart a lot.

when you write something like this game in .NET there are going tobe BIG problems :( as another member put it...these are the "pioneering days" for this type of game authoring.

Hey dont worry about clod failing there our other flight sims out there that do work like this http://riseofflight.com/en its a lot of fun. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRuAa...eature=related

Pull yourself together Pips!

If your pc went to 11 you'd have no problems jk. :)

Don't touch it ! Don't point at it. Dont even look at it . That's a great scene!

On a serious note as long as the devs are at it, I'll be willing to wait

Indefinetly?

you'r misinterpreting a minor cosmetic glitch that added an additional weeks delay to the long awaited patch, and confusing it with "a major problem with the new gfx engine" that will never be fixed. rewriting a gfx engine in a "small house" production team in 6 months is pretty good going.

you still fail to comprehend that SoW-BoB was not intended to be released last year in its "current state", it wasnt ready or complete, and no sane producer would have done so deliberately under normal circumstances. yet ubi/1C put their foot down, and it was either that (whatever you got when you bought it 12 months ago), or NOTHING (and there would have been a whine chorus for 20 years lamenting that, since the whole project would have been canned and there is NO OTHER flightsim team doing anything similar).

in case you missed it, in the leadup to the intended 2010 release.....:
in early 2010 oleg and Co seemed confident a release by the end of that year ("anniversary of BoB in late october 2010") was their intended target date. oleg's projects like this had always been built in a modular fashion (gfx engine, aircraft AI, FM, DM, etc each being worked on by a separate team) and then in the last phase of the project get assembled together. but in the last 6 months of that time frame they couldnt get the gfx engine to perform as expected (and yes those programers seem to have been out of their depth). they did at least 2 rebuilds of that same gfx engine, and by the time it was 3 month before intended release date and they realized this wasnt working, it was TO LATE ! they didnt have the option anymore to spend 9 months on a complete rebuild from scratch and recode it with other programers, and ubi/1C put their foot down and forced the release "as was" (with oleg likely to have refused and insisted on more time, oleg leaving as a result, and luthier taking over)

the release, and wasting 6 months of rebuild time:
following release in early 2011 luthier made a mad scramble to fix and improve things, both with gfx engine and the other modular elements that had been neglected to get their final polish and refinement, but in those initial 6 months he only was able to improve the gfx engine to the point it would run halfway decent on top end pc's, and even then in the gfx engine they had to tone down all kinds of goodies (lighting effect, AA etc..). so about 7 months ago luthier decided on a full rebuilt of the gfx engine (which really should have been started in mid 2010), and that is what is about to be released now, at long last we get "what CoD could have been" had there been no forced release (and subsequent lost time in still trying to fix the old broken gfx engine)

what we are about to receive now in the gfx engine "patch":
this should solve most of the major performance problems, and allow it to run reasonably well on mid range pc's, and have most options on higher settings for high end pc's (but not everything on full max, even the original il2 10 years ago was not able to do that either). and i am quiet confident at long last most of us will be able to start enjoying the game.


so what are the real problems we are facing ?

there are some major other issues we do need resolved, and i am not sure luthier is prepared to do this, or even recognizes the seriousness of the problem. eg once the gfx engine functions reasonably well, his attention should go to completing the other major elements of CoD that are missing, rather then leave it and try and sell us BoM. currently the only "working" element of CoD is a simple version of air-quake, and it is a significant step behind and below what had become possible with the 1946-il2 series, which had evolved into a much more advanced and multi-faceted game. the SoW series (we now received the first installment of) should take things to the next level, but it isnt, and it hasnt, THAT is what should now be addressed, and the important main elements of this should now be completed/finished and made available to use as a matter of immediate priority. and elements luthier wont have time for or wants to open up to 3e parties he should now also make available. imo opinion, so that other outside groups can start making other elements of the game he doesnt have time for, and the community can get involved and make the whole game expand rapidly into what it was intended to be. 50% of his time should go to addressing those issues, and the other 50% focused on the next sequel BoM.

we need as an immediate next step for luthier to fix/complete:
- correct fine tuning of FM for the main aircraft that duel in the sky, this is ESSENTIAL to have the right historical strength/weakness relationship, so we can simulate what historically occurred in those major conflicts, AND have pilot skill make the difference in the combat outcome AND be able to execute correct historical combat maneuvers with these planes, not favored and distorted preferences in how the planes are modeled
- distant LoD model visibility should be a major priority to fix correctly, and not be some minor afterthought. having correct visibility of distant planes/ground-objects to locate, identify, and track during engagement is ESSENTIAL to correctly SIMULATE a ww2 pilot experience in a dogfight or when targeting objects on the ground
- we need correct implementation of cloud and terrain masking for AI
- fixes for minor errors with specific planes, some controls not working or reversed, missing siren for the stuka, etc..
- lack of tree collision modeling
- no structured coop function (with people still able to join while mission has started, and being able to switch crew and aircraft positions)
- cloud models are to simple (real time dynamic weather can be postponed)
- AI behavior (mass suicide landings etc)
- no AI ground activity at airfields and on roads (need a dedicated setup/options area for this to be activated as: light, medium, high detail), so we get some civilian vehicles on the roads as well as military convoys and supply trains)
- still no dynamic campaign engine, and we have no supply lines or factories to target that affect frontline troop performance and equipment available at airfields etc.. (like munitions, fuel, repair of damaged aircraft)
- flak units are not yet made up of integrated units where elements can be damaged to reduce their overall effectiveness
- SDK for others external people to be able to work on the dynamic campaign, design some aircraft and ground object etc..

only once those main elements are corrected will we have a reasonably rounded and complete product, and have a basic version of what oleg/luthier intended (and includes many of the elements they gave WiP reports about during development in the last 5 years)

later features and components that can then be addressed, and can be part of new and expanded features in the next sequel (like BoM)
- dynamic weather
- control of some vehicles and ships
- new plane models
- gradual implementation of dx11 features
- skeletal animation of crew and 1e person player
- 1e player able to walk, drive, fly over/on any part of the map, interacting with objects


so if you want to complain about something, complain about something that does matter and doesnt just whine about something that is beyond all of our control (including luthier's).

wow thats a long list...

It seems you just described a long list of missing features and non gfx problems related to CloD. Which looks contrary to the claim that the game was almost finished and only gfx engine was a problem.
The game was in early stage of development when it was released. I dare to say it was not even an alpha release. And it's still not a beta and won't be a beta even after we get the mighty patch. Because beta means it has all features and only stability issues and minor problems are being solved.
You are right that it's pointless to complain and to increase the pressure on the development team. I hope they can make it right and have enough resources to continue with BoM and and next installments. If they have the core engine working they can add features later. BTW 2012 makes a great year for Battle of Stalingrad. And if we get Kursk in 2013 i'll be happy.

The big problem is you have to find these designers/programmers first and apart from guys who created RoF, DCS etc. there are no producers and publishers out there who are interested in making proper sims for PC gamers only. It's difficult to start competition between programmers when next to Maddox team nobody seems to give a flying sh.t about WWII aircraft. As a result, we're stuck with Luthier whether we want it or not.

B6 mentioned @ sukhoi.ru that they can not find enough developers qualified in gamedesign and aviation(when both are required). There are not many big development studios in Russia. They are constantly looking for people. Then even if they find the right person it takes very very long time for him to decipher, learn and understand this enormously complex code developed by different people in so many years.

This is what happened with the new graphics developer who was introduced only last year when the previous one was fired. No surprise it took almost a year to rewrite the code (he was hired after release IIRC). No surprise new bugs are discovered again and again and will be discovered in the future.

Thus if you know C# and love aviation just move to Moscow and help, otherwise we can only wait till a few available people fix in in some years.

This is what important.

no, you have misunderstood that part

once they realized they had problems with the gfx engine in those last 6 months prior to last years release, it was a scramble to try and solve that part, and non essential other elements were pushed to the back burner. had it been an orderly timed release of their own choosing, then in the following few months those aspects could then have been given the final touches and implemented

again, you dont understand how some of these games are put together, and oleg's management style (which worked well for the 10 years preceding, having released about 6 or 7 products like that) is different from most other game software projects that have large funds and 100 or more employees. he uses a modular method where each element (gfx engine, plane models, Flight models, damage model, etc..) are worked on separately by different groups (also helps to reduce the risk of intellectual property theft). only in the final last 3 to 6 months of the 5 year project are all the elements assembled and integrated (oleg gave explanations on this multiple times). working that way they dont have an alpha phase, the integrated product is very much a "near final beta" once it is assembled. in this 2009/2010 creation however the problem is that the core element that everything else fits into, is the gfx engine, and that is what let them down and caused the additional 12 months delay (with 6 months lost trying to fix the old one, and the last 6 months to now develop a new one).

a good example of this is the way they very recently "suddenly" implemented drivable vehicles, with us being able to control them in 1e person. this is not something new they have been working on in the last months. it is something that had been discussed during WiP as far back as 6 years ago, most work had been done on in the last years, and very recently with just a couple of months of "final touches" was implemented (and we might well get with this new gfx engine patch, or its final version that comes a few weeks later). similarly we can/could/will get dynamic weather, dynamic campaign engine, skeletal animation of crew in aircraft etc..

once you now get this long awaited gfx engine patch, you will have the game more or less as originally intended 12 month ago. meaning, the following 6 months they would normally work on polishing of those other integrated parts (in game objects, map issues, etc) or adding new elements in (like a dynamic server, or dynamic weather), and fix problems reported following release (like fine tune flight models and minor plane errors).

"the problem" right now however is that with the time and money lost (for them, oleg/luthiers group and 1c) they are keen on quickly releasing a sequel that their normal customer base will then buy, and i fear they will not prioritize the fixes we now need (once the game is actually running well)

That's the real problem right there

Indeed this looks very promising, thanks for the heads up Seven........:cool:

You are just been Rickrolle´d :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

you could always look at it this way.i stated the otherday that every person should be taken off the expansion pack that is being worked on as we speak.And put on fixing this game once and for all. I still stand by that,What would you do if that brand new computer u are on right now as promised to be the next best thing and you find out after bringing it home that it is far from what the person at the store told you. OR that new car you are driving around in?How would u feel if u bought that car and couldnt drive it for a year but....good news is that the NEXT car they are working on will be much better.what then??

you would feel used and abused.and cheated.ALL i am saying is that the expansion should never have been mentioned in the 1st place untill the game was fixed. some here say I or we dont understand how the devs work.Well how about the rest of the world?everyone knows you cant push forward without fixing the original problems 1st and if you claim you are willing to let that brand new car sit in the garage for a year waiting... then yer nuttier than i am. I am a pistashio

i have said my peace on this for the last time.I just want to be heard.

Well i think i have a good grasp of what you are explaining. But it doesn't matter which way they take to get to the desired result (if they actually get there). You listed the missing key features beside the gfx problems. We are one year after the game was released. And we are not talking about some marginal functionality. So no, the game has never entered beta phase. It is in alpha now (it somehow works and there is still a lot to be implemented).

BTW the separate development process as you described explains a lot. Prolonged separation of developed modules without early integration and constant testing usually doesn't lead to good results. I guess that was what they had to get rid of first when Luthier took over.
Just doesn't it make things worse when they had separate development teams with different programming habits? Doesn't it add to the mess they are now trying to solve? I feel with them being a C# developer too. Bad design/management decisions can't be solved by programmers. So i have great sympathy to those who keep the good work coming.