Bf110 Kette Schwarm of both?
 

I always thought the Bf110 flew in Schwarm containing 2 Rotte like other fighters. After watching some footage lately I notice they actually fly in Kette. Was this throughout the war or did it change?

What was in a Bf110 formation? How many Rottenflieger, Rottenführer (Ketteführer?), Schwarmführer etc...

Thanks for any replys,
Farber.

The Bf110 was a heavy fighter and so was the normal fighter tactic used. 2 Planes a Rotte, 2 Rotten one Schwarm and so on... They didnt flown in Ketten - at least not normaly.

S~

Well the famous wasp nosed bf110s were part of a Schnellkampfgeschwader bomber unit - SKG 210. It makes sense that bf110 in a fighter unit flew Rotte and bf110 in a bomber unit flew Kette ... though I cannot quote any historical sources to back this up.

I have even seen artwork of fw190, supposedly in a Schnellkampfgeschwader, flying in a kette.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTSx9...ayer_embedded#!

Flying in Kette.

Hmmm....

I see a mix of ME-110 and JU-88 in this film.

At 0:40 I see ME-110 flying 4-finger
At 0:46 I see JU-88
At 0:51 I see ME-110 flying 4-finger
At 0:59 I see JU-88
The plane leaving the group, initiating the left turn and the Ground attack is a JU-88 (filmed from a ME-110).

So overall it looks like 4-finger for the ME-110 and group formation for the JU-88

Nice film find! It surprised me to see so much smoke distruption from the ME-110 guns.

~S~

it might depend on thier task al already mentioned.
During BoB only 2 Squadrons (1. & 2. ErpGrp 210) flew as groundattack. All the other groups were designated fighters...........................

At the easternfront, the 110 units all flew groundattack (very few exceptions in the far north and in limited nightfighter tasks) - whatever their unit designation was.

Don't get deceived by propaganda videos, they had to look cool, not necessarily represent operative formations.

Truth is that there was a great deal of flexibility, based on type of mission, aircraft available and operative limitations, so giving a unique answer is impossible I'm afraid.

How 335th_GRAthos already wrote, we see Me 110 which flown fighter escort in a Schwarm for Ju88 bombers in Kette.

A very usefull aspect of this video is to show just how 'straight' the tracers look when filmed from a handheld camera (much more representative of the human viewpoint) real proof that guncam tracers are not as seen by the naked eye.

Yes Grathos, sorry wrong video. I put it up in a rush this morning.

I ment to show you this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHiCq...ayer_embedded#!

2:08 Kette
4:03 Kette
4:47 Schwarm


If they didnt have enought numbers, Say 4 Schwarm with 3 aircraft each and they were using Schwarm, Im sure with the Rotte being the basic element they would have made up 3 Schwarm instead of flying in Kette... But also its impossible to tell when the footage is from...

3:15 Treffer im rechten Motor - trotzdem wird der Auftrag zu Ende geführt

Got some balls, this pilot, when one of my engines gets hit in Clod it means good bye battle area and hello god, hope you got some time for me.

I think this is the Camera Man and Propaganda Office who got some balls... sounds like typical propaganda film to me...


Regarding the new film, oh yes this looks a bit different.
I see two groups flying 4-fingers in the beginning 2:01 but afterwards all different formations (2:08 group, 2:16 V-form, 2:29...) I think they are for filming purposes.

At 3:09 is an amazing scene the ME-110 trying to shoot down the RAF plane which is attacking the JU-88 !!!!!!!


There is also another point that surprised me at 1:30 -> The main production model (ME-110C as of April '39) had a speed of 349Mph (560Kmh) at 23000feet (7000m)!!!!


~S~

Your right, there is definitely a mix of formations used. It may be to do with mission task. In the book "Messerschmitt BF 110: Bombsights Over England - Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain" there are often mentions of Kette formations in attacks. Although to be fair there are also mentions of Rotte and Schwarm formations as well.

Great film!

Yes, it seems they adopt Kette for Bombing and Schwarm for fighting...

To be honest flying Rotte when your whole flight is bomb laden and unable to manoeuvre seems a bit pointless. It just makes sense to fly Kette when bombing, safety in numbers.

2:08 is a Do17 bomber group in Kette formation...

On futher inspection - I agree

and the 4:03 is Schwarm and Kette - Understrength?