Democracy 101 (are we brainwashed automats?)
 

Hi, thanks to the random youtoube video links i end up with this video, it catch my atention

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeN80BDA4fc



i never lived in any country with a long term democracy (in my country it has 29 years) the reason i post this is that i would love to hear the opinions of people that live in the type of countries that describes the professor of the video and to ask if you think that its accuarate

S!

Unfortunately, yes it is true.

One common misconception about the United States is that it's a Democracy. It's not, It's a Constitutional Republic, designed to be run by rule of law. The founders of this country feared democracy as much as totalitarianism, they recognized that democracy is little more than mob rule.

The structure of the government in this country is supposed to serve the function described it the video, insulating the country from the fickle whiles of the mob.

The the elitist educated socialist elements that run this country now don't believe in this method, so they are slowly tearing it apart and replacing it with what you see in the video. This has been going on since FDR (and probably much before) and continues in full force today.

The failed economic and social strategies of these people will ultimately destroy this country that I love so much.

Watch the news closely young man and you'll get to see the Old republic implode over the next few years. I'm sure it will be fascinating.

BTW, there is no such thing as long term democracy, it's unsustainable. Sheep simply cant run a government long term.

Maybe not BadAim, there are still many of us that recognize and are teaching our children

Even Australia is not a democracy - a form of democracy - true, but really we are a Constitutional Monarchy controlled ultimately by the Queen of England who really serves no purpose in running any of her domains and so instead we are govererned by idiots approved by the Queens' Representative the Governer General... IMO there is no such thing as 'Democracy' for in no country have I ever found a "True" example of the government being "run by the people".

Oh and I think this thread runs over the forum rules of no political discussions. ;)

Happy Flying!

true democracy doesn't exist.

what does is five yearly/four yearly elected dictatorships, with the constitutional possibility of a government changing early if they really feck it up (above and beyond the usual incompetence).

I'm from Canada if that matters (original post has asked)

Funny.. I was sitting at the breakfast table not ten minutes before I read this post, having a discussion/argument about this very topic. It's nice to be able to come here and see discussion on the topic, as I don't seem to be getting anywhere, over there at the table :)

I think there's a huge majority of people out there that haven't wrapped their heads around this one yet (including my other half), but I'm also a believer that in a solid "two weeks" the majority of people in the world will figure it out. ;)

Not in my lifetime though.. imo.

ps.. A special thanks goes out to the internet btw. (golf clap)

You are very wise in your youth.

Again a great post by nearmiss lost to those who unfortunately were too late to have read it... :grin:

I hope your right, Slipball and I hope it helps. I hate to see the grand old lady fall from grace.

BadAim, I'm confused m8! Are you in basic agreement with Prof Chomsky then?

its great to read the different opinions. it give me (and anyone reading) a better perspective of the issue.

what i try to mean with long term democracys (its not the correct term) , is a sort of mature party sistem thats well stablished. not necesarly a bipartidism, but at least several parties sharing power trought time.

(if you are interested in a party sistem thats not well established you can check the political history of my country :P , of course this is my opinion, im not an history expert).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...983-Present.29

ps: i dont know why they delete posts. we are all discussing in a respectful way. bad moderators , different pov enrich the topic, well managed controversy is a great way to undesrstand others opinions.

hope you understand sorry for the bad english- S!

One of the oldest democracy on the world is in Switzerland! IMO it is the best system on the world! Each citizen of Switzerland has the right to vote, to vote on laws. Every citizen can collect signatures to start an initiative or a referendum! There are two parlaments, the Nationalrat and the Staenderat both are voted directly from the crowd! The government will be voted from the two parlaments and is build of seven ministers. Every year they change the president. IMO the only democracy that realy works on this planet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland

Democracy: two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch

Liberty: A well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote


There' something in that to consider ;)

I have been reading Noam Chomsky for over 20 years .... in fact I have several of his books.. including this one.. very thought provoking.

I do not want to rant and rave.

But yes in answer to the topic question. The 80% of the masses is pretty accurate, and they will never accept "conspiracy theory" or anything that is contrary to the news or politics as they know it. Even though the truth is easy enough to find.

As Thomas Jefferson stated "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."

On a related note ...

Apple is a cult and its users are brainwashed zombies.

In the event of a Zombie Apocalypse keep a close eye on Cupertino, Ca.


On a more on-topic point ...

With internet and social networking its now technically feasible to have a true democracy (rather than representational democracy) with citizens voting personally on everything. Would YOU bother spending several hours every day at a computer voting on policy questions ?

LOL, Arthur. That depends what you mean by agreement. Sociology is a difficult animal. On the political scale I come in about two degrees to the left of Genghis Khan, but in reality it makes little difference these days.

I know you a bit, and I believe that you and I are more of a like mind than either of us would rather admit. Our friendship notwithstanding.

The problem with self government is apathy. I think that most people don't give a crap about anything so long as they can do what they want. It's just reality. The friction comes in when people start giving a crap. The sad thing is that those who give a crap are often led astray by people who don't give a crap, but who pretend to give a crap in order to profit off those who actually give a crap (let's, for the sake of argument call these people, er.....say maybe, "politicians")

In the end the real lines should be drawn between the ones who don't give a crap and those who do. In the end it doesn't work out this way. The "politicians" get the people who give a crap arguing amongst themselves to the point where they forget what they were arguing about while the "politicians" reap the benefits and the whole rest of society pays the price.

In the end, I think that Chomsky was correct in that the majority is not fit to govern themselves. I disagree with the method of separating the wheat from the chaff. The difference comes in the philosophies of "education", and of "parenting", two institutions that have changed massively in the past decades.

I doubt that this answers any one's questions, let alone yours, Arthur, but it does give some indication about how I feel about the subject.

Edit: I can't believe I wrote "in the end" three times! In the end I'm just an idiot.

Oh God, I hope not! (see my other posts)

Don't really care too much for Chomsky, has too many skeletons in his own closet like adoration for Pol Pot and his wonderful utopia. And the idea of a superior 20% to manage seems a chronic plague, you see it everywhere, since Plato and beyond. Never works, always ends in implosion, there is no difference in humans, simply an excuse to rob and plunder. Besides it's a little bit too 'Reptilian' like in scope. ;) If you accept the thesis, your already a slave.

I'd rather listen to Alan Watt, he's my kind of dissident, maybe a little crazy, but definitely a thinker. You can find his stuff on utube.

But yeah, in the modern world of true believers in social darwinism, if your a thinker, you truly are on your own. Eventually with peak resources they will cull their competitors. You see it now, anyone whom they cannot directly control culturally is ruthlessly destroyed. Whether it's a primitive Amazonian tribe, or the Afghan hill people.

i would do it with entusiasm , im sure i can represent my interest way better than any "professional politician". and it would be a great way to learn new things.
at leasty here (im sure in any country is similar) most of the senate aproove projects without even reading it, only becouse the head of the party or block order that have to be voted, many of those laws are ridiculous (http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=106291) , and the ones that must analyze them dont even read it..

im sure in the us its not so diferent. i dont think the trillions of the bailouts can be approved by a election, (well, with a all mighty media lobbyng for it it can be possible)

Chomsky is a sharp guy. His model, too high level, too simple. Sir, no faith in the individual? In my experience, the individual doesn’t live at the high level he speaks. Instead, Chomsky reduces him collectively to either a teacher or a dumbass? Wtf. I would argue, the individual has the freedom to turn the tv/propaganda “off”. The individual has the freedom to ignore the propaganda or persue his/her own agenda or enjoy the propaganda of the “masses” as a pastime, hobby or even promote it with pleasure. The individual has the freedom to move, to buy or not to buy, to agree, or tell the world to go to hell. Or, the individual can sit around all day and worry if the sun will rise tomorrow because of the unmitigated disaster, Obama, spending some x-trillion dollars of future generations money in three years and more than all other presidents combined in the nations history! I do not wake up each day and ask myself, am I an 80% percent or 20% or 99%? Instead, I read a book on compiler theory. This, Chomsky’s greater contribution to my world. The USA will survive because nothing is more important than freedom, even when your broke. And we know from history, the individual will die to save it. Common sense always takes hold eventually. I would say, don’t waste your time on someone elses agenda unless you choose to and ask yourself why you do it. I think most people do that, though not explicitly. More so, just natural human behaviors. Chomsky’s model... is it propaganda??? Or is Chomsky himself a victim of propaganda??? Could be. Life is too short for me to worry about that. He is a sharp guy though and I found the vid worthy of my time to write some of my own propaganda on the internet.:grin:

I'd like to agree with you, Blaster. Unfortunately for me I'm just too jaded. I believe that self government is right and good to the core of my soul, and that it is the only way to go. I also believe that the average person would just as soon be a slave if his cage is nicely appointed. This is why we have politicians and social engineers; they are more than happy to be the builders of gilded cages, so long as they get a cut of the profit.

Blech. This discussion leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is why I stopped watching or listening to news of all kinds for the most part. It's too freaking painful. It's like watching the butcher lead the sheep away while the shepherd weeps.

Ha. I woke up this morning with this on my brain.:)

It’s a paradox BadAim. Chomsky is a paradox. On the one hand, he comes up with the concept of a universal grammer, implying that human beings are hard-wired to learn. On the other, he implies you are a dumb-ass unless you are taught by a formally educated person. I accept the former and reject the latter.

If I iterate to a baby over and over, “red” while pointing to a red ball, what have I taught the baby? Is the baby no longer a dumb-ass with respect to “red”. I submit that I can not know. I can only speculate that the baby understands “red” as I understand “red”. But I am not the baby. I can test the baby, but still, only the baby really knows how he/she has conceptualized “red”. Maybe I have inadvertently planted the seed for the the baby to grown up and be a communist hope and changer. Or maybe this was my intent all along? Hello elite mentality. No. Drawing a line between the supposed dumb-asses and the teachers is a futile excercise. It’s a relative line that requires context to mean anything at all and even then, subject to one’s interpretation. If I cut myself and apply a bandaid, am I not now a doctor? In my mind, I am a brilliant doctor and that is all that matters to me at that point in time. Just as we are hardwired to formulate our own opinions of “red”. Our inate ability to use our senses, to take in data, analyze it, formulate, reflect, and make a choice about “red” and, if necessary, revisit our decision in the future. Or, simply not worry about it and throw it out as garbage. Did the baby throw out my interpretation of “red” as garbage??? Maybe the baby is color blind. On a broader scale, this is why we have elections in America. To revisit our past decisions. The 80% human beings are not dumb-ass automatons that must rely on and support the 20% “formally educated” class to be the interpreter. The ability to learn is inate. The desire to learn...inspiration comes in many forms. Teachers can choose to provide inspiration or indoctrination. It’s up to the individual to interpret the meaning and the individual can change his/her mind whenever they feel like it.

"There was once a nanny-goat who said,
In my cradle someone sang to me:
"A strong man is coming.
He will set you free!"

The ox looked at her askance.
Then turning to the pig
He said,
"That will be the butcher."

Bertolt Brecht

badaim someone here has a quote in there sig from Thomas Jefferson that says " Aman who reads othing at all is more educated than the man who reads the newspaper"

S!

Lol, oddball. I agree fully. Tom is an old friend of mine, and definitely on my short list for meeting on the other side. I like the poem too, I guess that makes me the ox?

I have little faith in education as well, Blaster. No one is ever going to learn anything they don't want to. I guess that was my point. I don't really believe that the majority of people are stupid, but that they are willfully ignorant; they just don't care enough about anything to be bothered learning about it. Either way, education can't fix the problem, I mean you can't make someone care, and you can't raise their IQ. I guess that's why our education system has turned to indoctrination, it's probably easier to make all the fools think the way you want them to, rather than teach them to think for themselves.

There's the bad taste again.......

The US is generally seen as a modern liberal state.

Liberal state theory virtually requires indoctrination of potential citizens for them to qualify as full members of a liberal state. Its only once indoctrination is deemed complete at say 18 years of age that you get full rights in a liberal state. Individuals where indoctrination has failed (criminals, the mentally ill, dissidents) are not granted full rights.

don't worry Gal it will all be different when I come to power :shock:...we will have one leader one government one coun........CRAP! I knew I heard that some where before...and it didn't work then either...oh well back to the drawing board:-P

lol .. at heart I am a social anarchist.

I believe the only valid reason for having a government at all is so it can interfere with and control the Machiavellian manipulations of society and the economy that big business by its very nature will always indulge in :D

ATM, Asian nations are growing fast under capitalist cruelty while western nations are collapsing into economic disaster through a welfare state mentality. So has democracy helped western nations ?? obviously not. The power of the voter to sell their vote for a handout is very powerful, that our elected aristocrats tamper with at their own peril! :grin:

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There is of course a certain illogic to this.

In the west:
Big Business greed -> means economy collapses -> govt forced to hand out welfare

Conclusion:
Welfare caused the economic collapse, give big business a tax break

partly,

Politcal decisions (corruption through multinational & UN pressure) to move jobs to 3rd world economies (free trade), left many western governments with weakened economies, to fill the gap they compensated with low interest loans (credit) which mostly went into housing speculation. This housing bubble was expanded greatly by criminals within Public corporations (investment banks) jumping on the bandwagon and creating high-risk derivatives, creating great wealth for themselves and putting the companies they worked for, and world economy in great risk.

You know the rest .. I'm still waiting for the arrest warrants! which will probably include a ex-president & ex-Fedbank employee ..

EU problems are different, many EU countries have had a welfare problem with decades but was hidden by income derived from credit (housing bubble) but when it popped, many governments were left with not only welfare debt but bank bailout debt too. How do you pay expanded welfare when your economy is shrinking ? go into further debt .. and further debt. The lastest austerity measures to balance books will hurt greatly and shrink EU economies further, but I think are necessary to reflect poorer western societies ... unless western countries tell the UN & multinationals to go get .. and take their jobs back? (protectionism)

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