109 elevator trim
 

I am not a 109 jockey, nor am I anti-Luftwaffe, I seek maximum accuracy for this sim/game. If you answer this please do so with history in mind, not how your stats would be affected in game. Thanks.

My questions are about how elevator trim is used in game compared to real life.

1. How is it operated in a real 109?
2. Was it possible to apply it in combat, easily or normally?
3. What effect did this have?

I've heard that some 109 guys are using it to gain lead and can initially stay with even the Spitfire for 1/2 turn as it breaks for get off a few shots, I have certainly experienced this myself. I don't think we will know if this is true for real life, I would be surprised or I would have read about it.

Of course it could be flap they are using and the same applies - I struggle to see how a pilot could make a combat turn at G whilst turning a big wooden wheel in the cockpit.

I would like to see the 109 trim or flap modeled in such a way that if it wasn't used in real life then it should be very hard to apply in game to gain advantage.

There's a bug raised against flaps in the bugtracker here:
http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/28

Afaik the turn-dominance of the spitfire was in the sustained turn, so it might be according to reality that the 109 can stay behind in the beginning.

Iirc, it was the same with the 190 turning behind a better turning fighter.

In a 109 you might set a bit of nose up trim before the fight and correct that with the stick lightly forward, but that causes a drag penalty, costing you speed and energy.

The same with the use of flaps, which might give a slight increase in turning performance, but reduces again speed and energy so you loose more than you gain!

So, any pilot using this "advantage" throws away the advantages of his ride for a very fleeting increase, and if that one chance solution doesn't work he is out of luck.

One might also take in account, that because of the sensitive elevator of the spit the initial turn might not be as hard as it could be out of the fear of a stall.

The trim and the flaps in the 109 are reacting so slow in game (turning the wheels and its difficulties is simulated and it doesn't work with a axis!) that this "bug" is pure fantasy in my eyes.

r/l 109 flap/trimming operation:-
11.7" dia wheel with 5 3/4 turns between full up and down ( ~+3.4- -8.4 deg movement of tailplane)

RAE report on a captured 109e notes excellent placement and ease of operation. Also noted is the ease of using both with one hand to counter the nose down effect of flaps on aircraft trim (~10 deg nose down at full flap)- taken from 109 pilots notes by Crecy.
I'd also point out that a big wheel has more 'leverage' than a small wheel- but i haven't seen any force measurements for this

Can't recall anything on use of trim/flaps in combat as such but there are quotes of using trim (carefully ) to pull out of high speed dives iirc.

You can have trim on a wheel but not flaps Robtek.

But the use of trim to pull out of high speed dives is set before the dive isn't it... Osprey thinks poeple are using them in combat.

Ive never heard of anyone doing this. Like Robtek said. You could trim nose up and gain a minute advantage in the iniatial moment of the first turn but it still wont let you hang in a prolonged turn with a spitfire... The trim is so rough and over responsive If you where using it in combat it would throw your aim off.

Why dont you test it out for yourself? You will see how obsurd an idea it is.

"Trim-trick" was indeed used sometimes by some ace pilots in real life (Finnish ace K. Karhila was one of them). But like 5./JG27.Farber said, in game trim is too rough to use in combat situation, at least for me.

Unfortunaetly I never had the chance to fly a real WWII fighter. No idea how the elevator trim is used in game compared to WWII real life fighters.

I'm convinced that the BF109E-elevator-trim is very close to reality. The quoted bug afaik is a "1c forum myth".

I'm sure, it was. But I'm not sure wether a good BF109 pilot changed speed / energy against a better turn rate.


The trim-wheel allows me to move the aircraft control surfaces in small increments and hold that setting. A properly trimmed aircraft is much easier to fly, nothing more or less. A properly trimmed BF109 will be faster and / or safer.

Trimming the elevator allows me to maintain altitude or control climb or decent rate. It is not ment to gain advantage over a better turning fighter, for example the Spitfire.

If I do not want to climb I adjust elevator trim by causing the nose to go level or at a slight nose down angle of attack will allow me to gain airspeed as fast as possible.

If I do not adjust elevator trim and push the nose down by forcing my stick forwards my plane will increase speed but at a slower rate and control pressure may become excessive at high speeds and I will not achieve the maximum airspeed potential of my aircraft.

To increase turn rate and decrease turn radius, I use the flaps. Using flaps at the right time in the right situation can get me the lead I need to get a shot at the enemy or allow me to evade an enemy's gun fire.

Happy flying

Varrattu

I did not find a reference in my quick search for the trim in combat but I did found this:

Knowing this, it must've been possible to apply it in combat while controlling the plane with the other hand.

EDIT:

There you go, it was used frequently according to this fighter pilot!

For a DIYS-Flap-setting-indicator on Bf109 please have look:

http://forum.sturmovik.de/index.php/topic,835.0.html

Translation:

http://translate.google.de/translate...c%2C835.0.html

Happy landings

Varrattu

Sorry to turn the table around Osprey but I am getting curious to understand the difference between a Bf109 Elevator trim vs. a Spitfire Elevator trim

ehem, sorry I forgot. I rephrase:
the difference between a Bf109 Elevator trim vs. a Huricane Elevator trim ;)

WTF?
You really believe that you are getting your precious part kicked just because somebody is using the elevator trim to gain an advantage over you!?

C'mon man, you must be a terrible noob (which I know you are not) to lose a fight because of this!

I will tell you what the difference is:
Elevator trim has a very smooth axis progressive movement which most cheap joystics do not!

So, if one has a "cheap" joystick ("cheap" means inferior construction materials NOT buying price) and it has "spikes", elevator movements are going to be crap and he is bound to fly lousy and bleed all energy while doing corrections.

Likewise, if one has a good joystick but have done the trimming incorrectly and does not fly with smooth subtle movements his elevator movements are going to be crap and he is bound to fly lousy and bleed all energy while doing corrections.

For this reason a "lot of people" (actually very few people, mostly people from Russia who understand about things and are not preparedto pay the 200-400USD ridiculous prices of good joysticks sold in the Western market) mod their joysticks themselves and fix the technical part this way.

Other people with less understanding (e.g. myself) just keep using their MS Sidewinder2 FFB joystics (and bin the Warthogs...) :D

Summarizing:
If one's joystick axis pots are crap,
if one does not know how to setup the axis movement in the game,
if one does not know how to handle the joystick in order to ensure a nice smooth flying
then he better use the elevator trim....

...or just learn to fly :D :D :D :D :D


~S~

I believe the issue is the speed of response of the trim control, especially on the 109. The RAF fighters have got the same problem in the sim, but the elevator trim was much easier to operate in real life.

It was indeed possible to operate the Emils trim wheel in combat and many pilots did it, obviously, it was normal part of flying and fighting, but:

The point is that the wheel in the sim is nothing like the real thing. The design of the 2 wheels stuck together was to turn them both in order to compensate for the nose-down tendency of the aircraft with the landing flaps being deployed. (This is also a bug in the sim as with 'octopus effect' switched on, you can't operate one while the other is being used). Pilot was turning both wheels with his left hand simultanously.

With elevator trim assigned to an joystick axis, you will be able to get full effect of the trim within split of a second whereby it took much longer in real life and the response was nowhere as swift. Give it a shot, you'll see. With this 'exploit', the 109 is way too manoeverable and you're actually winning turnfights with Hurricanes and you'll be able to hit Spitfires breaking hard while diving on them full speed. I fly all planes in game and I find this a severe issue, just like these nose ups with flaps down and other sci-fi physics.

True, as it should be to ease and neutralize forces on the stick (which we don't really have on our plastic joysticks). Reading a bit more about Finnish pilots, while you mention it, elevator trim was extremely important - remember the story of this pilot who got himself almost killed because he forgot to trim his plane correctly (G-2) before entering the dive. The response was nowhere as fast and this should be modelled in the sim. Same for Spitfires / Hurricanes, of course...

Actually this has nothing to do with the hardware. :-P

Many pilots are using it. So many actually that you won't be competetive if you're not imo.

Exactly, over responsive. It is certainly not throwing your aim off, it is helping you a big deal actually if you know how to control it. It is not too difficult to get hang of it tbh.

Oh yes, I tested it a lot Farber. Osprey is spot on.

If in fact there was 5 revolutions for full travel, then the pilot was only limited to his turning speed of the wheel...about 2-3 seconds for full travel I estimate. Not that any pilot would adjust to full travel, and so time decreases depending on revolutions turned, because of the mechanical nature, and so any turning would provide some type of immediate results..

S!

Robo, I would be careful before spewing assumptions like yours as truth. The elevator trim and landing flaps were separated systems altogether in Bf109. The trim was not tied to flaps to automatically adjust trim when flaps were cranked or flaps did not move if trim was applied. Both things were done separately by the pilot.

This "cheat trim" issue was cried out loud in original IL2 too, but applied to ALL planes, not only Bf109. Sure it was a bit sensitive in beta at least but much less so in later versions. Much better in CoD. And also you can check in CoD how it works, no matter how fast you move the assigned trim axle it does NOT move the trim wheel in game(cockpit) any faster and applies to Spits/Hurries as well. So there goes the theory of "cheat trim".

Maybe people should dig into the issue more than just vent in anger of something that is not there. IF there would be issues in ANY of the planes regarding the trim, for example, then Luthier and his team should fix it..regardless it being a red or blue plane as many want to categorize. Do not scream for simulation if the only way of simulation you want suits your own needs/agendas/whatever IMHO.

I can tell that I never turn in the Bf109E with Spitfire or Hurricane. NEVER. Maybe 45deg or so but after that I know I am toast as they WILL get on my 6 and blow me out of the sky. Energy is life!

I think Luthier and Co should address the FM/DM after the performance patch to pave way to an even better sequel where the issues are already squashed or much less prominent. Agree?

It would take longer than that as he could only move the wheel maybe a 1/4 > 1/3 turn for each grab of the wheel. That would be 20+ grabs.

I just can't imagine a pilot adjusting more than a very few degrees at a time

S!

Al Schlageter, and with what you do you back up this that the trim wheel could be moved only a small amount at time? Been in a Bf109 to test it? I have been and can say you can move it quite easily more than 1/3-1/4 at a time ;)

Ok, so you're saying it is ok as it is now? ;)

I'd like to see how you spin that wheel 5 turns in 2-3 seconds. :eek:

I never stated they were interconnected in any way. :-P

I only stated that the wheels were placed and designed as they were so the pilot could compensate for nose-down pitch when deploying the landing flaps by spinning both wheels at once.

S!

Point taken :D IT is easy to operate them, been in that Bf109G to try them.

Exactly. But now, you can adjust full range within very short period of time, hence the topic of this thread.

Again I estimate 3 seconds...but unknown

Sure with the a/c sitting on the ground one could put more turn on the wheel. have you tried the wheel while flying a 109 in combat Flanker?

http://achileus.cz/wp-content/upload...pit_photo1.jpg

If you watch the animation, full travel is about only 3/4 of one revolution. ..and so thats what we have, very quick deployment for full range. Is it accurate? we would need someone with experience of turning the wheel, or perhaps an operations manual.

Hi.
I'm using the trimm with axis (on of the small scrolling wheel on the throttle). When i roll the wheel from +8 to -3, it takes seconds. Much slower, than the stick movement...
You say, if i set the trimm to joystick main axis, it will be much faster? I can't test it now, but i am curious...

You're lucky to fly in virtual world ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjh...layer_embedded

If you are in constant turning, im sure, every pilot using the trimm. If you don't, your hand getting tired easily (even in a glider). More advantage, that you can keeping accurate speed (corner speed in the fighter, optimal speed in the glider, etc.).

Hi Tom. No, it's the same speedwise. I am using mine just like yours, joystick axis I ment the wheel (which is a hotas axis, too), sorry about the confusion.

Ok, np.
Thx.

I´m sure you mean -8 to +3.

The following photo shows the tailplane incidence of the BF109E-3a WNr 2422.The photo was taken at the Swiss Air Force Museum in Dübendorf.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/653...eincidence.jpg

yep, you right.

See that big metal flap moving in the background? Thats the flaps. We are talking about Elevator Trim - its the other wheel. ;)


ROBO: I dont use the "trim-trick", I dont think its practical. If some of you guys do and some RL pilots do, then whats the problem. For me, it doesnt suit my flying stlye, I dont like getting down and dirty.

The problem I see is not in the turnfight but in BnZ. And even if you personally don't use it, it should be modelled correctly, don't you agree?

When Osprey was talking to me about it on Steam he said 109's where using it to out turn him.

So... How long should it take? -Thats the real question. Bearing in mind you dont use all of it. Lets say half, how long does it take to roll out half of it?

Oh yes, you can outturn a Hurricane if you want, because you can apply nose-up trim very very fast. It is very useful and responsive in other manoevers, too - vertical or horizontal scissors etc... Do you need to hit a Spitfire that is breaking hard while you're diving on him at 450km/h? Apply full nose-up trim and you'll have plenty lead on him. This probably applies to all aircraft, and as you can do things no one could do in so called real life, this is certainly wrong. The 109 is specific because of the trim wheel design and purpose (e.g. pilot was not able to achieve full nose-up trim position so fast, which is more of a HW issue restricted via antropomorphic controls already.)

I don't know. It took 4 complete revs (or cca 5 3/4 revs) of the wheel to get from full up to full down trim. (It took about 22-25 seconds to deploy flaps fully (see varratuu's video again, he was refering to the wheel operation))

I can only assume that it was full 2 revolutions from neutral position to full up. Now watch the animation (less than one rev) and the immediate effect we have got in game. ;) Neutral position (0), +3 was nose down, -8 was full up - assuming the 0 is neutral for cruise flight, it would be even more than 2 full revs to get from neutral to full up, it would be more like 3 and half full revolutions. I would need to verify this and do some more research but I am sure someone will have that knowledge.

Now try to take a Hurricane and do the same, the trim wheel is very similar in fact as was typical for many aircraft of that era - and have a look at the trim indicator and wheel animation. Response is pretty similar. It's not too bad, there is even this small delay modelled, sort of.

I think there would only be a problem if the nose up trim gave the 109 the ability to outturn the spit/hurri in a sustained turn, which would be clearly wrong.
A "dynamic" turn is only limited by the pilot, the structural integrity of the ac and the effectivity of rudder, elevator and ailerons.

Robo, dont confuse the operation of the landing flaps with the operation of the trim wheel. They share a spindle but thats it, they are geared differently. So I dont think that video has any relevance.

It's not. If you roll the trimm wheel full "tail-heavy", the 109 drop its speed within seconds. You can pull some lead, if the enemy is close, but you have no chance to keep the corner speed, no chance to follow negative G maneuvers, and absolutely no chance to catch the enemy in mirror-spiral.

This thread is realy good footage for another episode of MYTHBUSTERS.

We are talking about a game and not about a simulation. Aircraft simulators you will find at airports like Heathrow or Frankfurt...

If you want to have more than a game, please spend more money. Find the next airport in your region and ask a pilot to climb or dive with you at about 5 or more meter per second to get a feeling for further discussions about G´s. For those who are still interested in RL aerodynamics, I recommend serious sources, i.e. PERFORMANCE & STABILITY of AIRCRAFT:

http://books.google.de/books?id=IuGI...idence&f=false

~S~

Varratu,

you are plain wrong when you start to categorize!!!

CoD is a game, ok, but still it is also a simulator!

While not as sophisticated as those real "full real" 3-axis simulators of the military and civil manufacturers, it still tries to simulate the flight of those planes.

Of course 99% of us armchair-pilots would puke our guts out if we would try the aerobatics we are talking about here in real life.

I've done some light aerobatics in light planes, so i have a idea what i'm talking about.

That beside is your and mine post OT.

I know ;)

"Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel."

~S~

If using trim is adjusting the position of the elevator and the joystick also adjusts the position of the elevator how can it possibly be considered a cheat. Having said that all fighters have a similar trim system so if it were a cheat it is a cheat for all fighter ac.

I don't use trim in this way but I have no problem in any one els using trim to control a turn. It seems like another argument for the sake of arguing?

Yes

I am not confusing anything, the relevance is in the position and access to the wheel control. 5 full turns (or 4 three-quarter turns) were required to adjust the full 12 degree range.

Could you post the reference material

Yes of course, you'll bleed speed due to high AoA. You can pull some lead and hit him after which you don't have to follow and you go vertical as usual. The enemy has some bullets in him already. What I am saying is that in so called real life pilot would have no chance to pull that lead at all because the trim response was not as swift and smooth. I agree on the corner speed and what you call mirror spiral, but in a vertical scissors - go figure ;) Negative G manoeuvres against RAF? Probably not.

With the structural damage nonexistent and this trim response, this is quite important issue if you consider CloD as a simulator. If you read about the trim operation of a 109, it is rather obvious that that is not what we've got in game at the moment, hence this thread.

I disagree, I find this discussion friendly and interesting. An issue has been raised, no one has used the word 'cheat'. There is no argument at all and it is clear that the trim behaviour is questionable and unrealistic.

Of course:

RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944

I am aware that this are British tests of a battle-damaged airplane that was apparently not trimmed correctly, but the actual statemens are only re the actual operation and in agreement with the manual.

both quotes above from 'The Best of the Breed by Col. "Kit" Carson Airpower, July 1976 Vol. 6 No. 4'

If in fact the wheel revolutions are correct as you presented, then I would agree the game model is wrong...but I think that you would need more proofs, other than an authored book as a reference.

S!

So the trim was used in Bf109 and other planes to compensate the changing flight conditions, like in any other plane. The extent to which pilot used elevator trim in a Bf109 can only be speculated, some might have used more than others.

Finns did use elevator trim to pull out from high speed dives as the controls went almost solid. But then we are talking about speeds excess 700km/h, not the usual 300-500km/h.

I also read from a P51D pilot's combat story that he did fiddled with trims even in combat to achieve best performance. And a Pony had more trims than Bf109 ;) So the thing is that these pilots were so used to the controls and their location that could operate them blindfolded and quickly because of their training and experience. This is hard to model into a game as there is no absolute truth how it works. We have the travels, rotations etc. but the rest..?

In the end what we get is how the developer interprets these things and puts them in the game. A compromise of something hard to model otherwise IMHO.

Yes they are correct and yes the game model is wrong I am afraid.

Why do you find the above reference (especially RAE tests) untrustworthy?

Of course, but it is apparent that the 109 elevator trim was rather specific with the design and purpose. Feel free to google for French tests of the same captured Emil and what they state regarding elevator trim (when compared to D.520 iirc)

Not just Finns but everybody :-P There is specific paragraph regarding trim wheel use in a dive in the manual. (Sturzflug) You set it incorrectly and you can end up in very unpleasant crater situation. There is also factory test of the dive characteristics with different trim settings out there. This was overly important of course.

American a/c have had a bit different approach to trims. While we're at the Finns, have a look how they compared US made Brewsters and MTs regarding trims. ;)

It is hard to model, but still possible. What we have got at the moment is not good enough imho, hence this thread.

How long does the full travel from -3 to +8 degree take in game?

I only know for shure that the reaction is much slower than my trim axis.

I think 4 quarter turns a second is normal for a pilot familiar with the 109, that would make it 5 seconds for a full change, which never would happen.

So, to trim nose up one might need 2, max. 3 degree + on the elevator, as it is only needed to get the lead for a few seconds, taking 1 turn of the wheel or about 1 second and is easily feasible, imo.

But if the aircraft in level flight is trimmed, lets say 0, then why would the pilot be going for the full 12 degrees? So its not 4 3/4 turns is it? It 1 or 2 3/4 turns! The wheels as I have read where quite accesable.

I feel this has been a valuble learning experience for me and thanks for letting me know about this. I will give it a try next time im flying. Ill let you know how I get on but I dont think it will change allot for me.

This is what I wrote before (post 36)

''I can only assume that it was full 2 revolutions from neutral position to full up. Now watch the animation (less than one rev) and the immediate effect we have got in game. Neutral position (0), +3 was nose down, -8 was full up - assuming the 0 is neutral for cruise flight, it would be even more than 2 full revs to get from neutral to full up, it would be more like 3 and half full revolutions. I would need to verify this and do some more research but I am sure someone will have that knowledge.''


Yeah I find this also very interesting.

Very interesting responses, I am pleased that most people understand that I am making the point to make our game more sim and less game. It's not about advantage but reality.

Just to be clear, my argument is that the trim control operational difficultly and speed of operation should be replicated for all aircraft. Thus if indeed it took a pilot several seconds to adjust his trim 3 or 4 degrees by turning a 12inch wheel then there's no reason why, for example, a flick of a thumb on the joystick should send it 6 degrees in 2 seconds. Any action on any aircraft should have a bug raised if such exploit is found.

~S~


As a side note I had to report Grathos for his quite disgusting reply, thoroughly rude and obtuse, I think it says more about him than me. @Grathos, don't ever '~S~' me again.

Aerodynamic forces change the feel and operation of controls. They are designed to work under those forces.

That is also why a very small amount of trim makes for a large adjustment in trim forces in most aircraft. It won't take several seconds to adjust the trim forces in flight.

Sorry the word cheat was used and implied. Isn't that the point of this discussion. That's what it sounds like to me. I didn't say it wasn't friendly. I just gave my opinion.

Yes of course.

Have you got any specific information regarding the 109 trim wheel operation?

I'm not sure wether this is the report Robo referred to. Please have a look at page 7, last paragraph (4.23):


ME109 handling & manoeuvrability test

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6341/trimi.jpg

I bet it were actually 6 turns in newer machines. 1/2 turn corresponds to 1 degree ...

S!

The thing in CoD is that if we trim the aircraft then the appropriate trim know/lever/wheel moves constantly until it reaches the desired position. This in all planes. So if you need 5 revolutions to fully deflect the trim in Bf109, for example, it will move nonstop that 5 seconds as the "grabs" are not simulated. Same goes to Bf109 flaps. It takes them pretty much the same time to deploy as stated in many reports EVEN the trim wheel moves nonstop in the game.

So I think Luthier and his team have taken in account the "grabs" on trimming to achieve historical results even the visual indication tells the movement is continuous.

I tested offline on Bf109E-4. The flaps take ~25sec to deploy/retract. Trimming the full deflection ~5-6sec. The movement of the trim axis does NOT affect trim speed in ANY way, always the same. So mapping to an axis does NOT give you an advantage. As reference on Spitfire Mk.Ia the elevator trim takes about the same 5-6sec for full deflection so not much difference there.

Interesting, and yes we do not have 5+ revolution in game...and so I would think that the unknown is time, how long did it take the RL pilot to adjust per 1 degree, and is that modeled correctly in game...it may well already be, I do not have the knowledge/certainly not the experience, to speculate any further.

One can quite reliable assume that the wheel turned quite easily because of the gearing reduction and the large wheel.
So it is quite easy to grip a imaginary wheel beside your seat and give it 4 quarter turns.
You'll see that that takes about 1 second.
As the wheel was readily accessible and had no big resistance (assumed) that would comply with the 5 to 6 seconds measured by Flanker35.

Max. ~2 seconds, ~1/4 turn per second, as in in the video.

I'm sorry Robtek, but you are saying that you can turn a 12" disc one whole rotation in 4 movements in 1 second. Yes, ONE second. Sorry, but no, don't be ridiculous.

It is the number of rotations is modeled to move through the entire trim range and a realistic speed of adjustment (as suggested in the flaps adjustment) that we are seek. Any superspeed suggestion is biased in order to gain advantage. Let's not skew the facts please, this goes for all types.

And what about the g-forces the pilot and structure would suffer when going to full up nose trim very quickly in a high speed dive?

I spoke with a Typhoon pilot (Sqn. Leader D.L Stevenson) who told me that he often had to trim nose up quick to recover from high speed dives when attacking with rockets, and that made him nearly black out every time.

There's also a passage in Clostermann's The Big Show when he had to apply a lot of nose-up trim while diving like crazy from high alt chasing a 109, he lost consciousness immediately and when he came back to his senses he had a nosebleed and his radio was useless from the high g's. After landing he saw taht his plane was quite warped...

So I guess that in game whe can quicky apply full trim at high speed we shoild also feel quite some effect on the pilot and airframe.

Surely pilots would adjust trim even in a fight, but generally you apply trim in small amounts, you rarely put full trim at once except if your live is really depending on it, when pulling out of a dive for example...

Ok, i have to admit, 4 quarter turns a second is a bit optimistic :D , but then, the video did show a really relaxed handling of 1 quarter a second.

A pilot, knowing its ride, would knew exactly how much trim to feed for the expected result and could move the wheel at least 2 to three quarters a second.

He would also exactly know how much to use and stay in a fighting condition.

I think that's very true, maybe in time I will as well. It's a bit touchy right now for me, seems to require micro adjustments. The times that I have used it was for take off, and landing approach I have not used it in combat yet

Rounding off the numbers given to 12 degrees (11.8) of trim and 6 turns (5.75) of the wheel, one gets 2 degrees of trim for every revolution of the wheel.

It takes ~4 seconds to make a full revolution of the wheel. Don't believe me, try it. Each grab is a 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004. If the pilot is in a hurry he might get 3 seconds per revolution of the wheel.

Yes, we are missing the physical feedback, lucky us!!

A trim wheel set up like the Bf-109 or Spitfires is generally very intuitive and precise.

For some reason cranks, like the P47 series are the exact opposite. Every aircraft I have flown with a crank style trim feels mushy and takes longer to get in trim.

I agree completely, BGs_Ricky. This is part of a bigger issue that is leading to virtual pilots doing things that were not possible to real life guys - no black out for the pilot, no structural damage for the aircraft etc. And that is certainly not 'right' in a simulator I guess.

There is some 109-related information on this page:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

Search for 'trim' as a keyword, quite interesting in many aspects.

usually a trim just moves the elevator -as far as i know in a 109 (and some others) it moves the whole STABILIZER, so i think something different happens to what you just do with your stick

Moving the whole stabilizer just means the trim system has more control surface area to work with. That means the less movement of the control surface is required to gain the same amount of force when compared to a tab type control surface.


I would not take the static display museum film of some unknown guy working the controls of some unknown condition aircraft as the standard for timing. That thing is kind of a joke actually.

I can send you a film working a Mooney Manual Gear System and you would think it was impossible to do in the air. All I have to do is just casually work the controls. Reality is the system is very simple and much quicker than most hydraulic gear. You don't casually work then either, you are pretty busy on final and don't have time to waste.

That must be the reason I find it touchy, I must be giving too many degree's to soon, I will try timing my input better...as far as the aircraft having any advantage over RL use of the trim, I don't think so. I imagine that it all boils down to just better pilots online, who are skilled with the 109 and her strong points.:cool:

I don't care how skilled they are or aren't. The issue is one of "was it realistically possible?". Obviously trim was regularly adjusted before certain actions were taken, such as dives, but this is different to making 2 or 3 degrees of movement inside 2 seconds whilst in the dive itself. From what I've read so far it appears that the trim adjustment is too fast compared with real life, therefore historically inaccurate.

@Crump. You do seem to dismiss things unless it is absolutely proven to you, possibly in the knowledge that you know that evidence to the level you require is not possible. This is why we use deduction, common sense and trim off the extreme viewpoints to gain a sensible perspective on the situation. To be honest mate, I'm not sure you are able to contribute anything to any discussion involving history because of this approach, and this becomes harder as less is known and greater speculation is required because it would never be possible to satisfy your requirements.
I ask you, since you play devils advocate for this discussion, do you hold the belief that what we have now is correct? According to your logic it cannot be.

I believe OM and his team have spent more time evaluating the timing of the trim wheel than we did/do here and the 5 to 6 seconds we have now didn't come out of thin air.

Imo it would be feasible in that time frame, but that is irrelevant, as the actual change is not the full range anyway.

That would mean we are talking about a imagined (imo) "advantage" of a few tenths of a second while actuating the trim and thereby drastically reducing the advantages in the following fight after the first seconds.

This discussion would be interesting if we had somehow corrected and validated FM's, which we dont have, rendering the discussion at this time senseless.

Oh yes there are no bugs whatsoever in this sim :o

If you really believe that you might need a reality check. :D :D :D

A few bugs dont devalue the rest!

That seems about right.

No, if it does not make sense, it does not make sense.

It is like having a fuel reserve of 2:1.....It does not make sense.

When there are mechanical questions to be answered, I always reach for my Haynes:-P

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/666

http://www.haynes.com/products/sfID1/115/sfID2/125

anybody have one?

3.22 here ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgvfklVzYZo

He starts turning back (nose up), at 3:23, hits the stop at 3:28. That's 5 seconds.

Don't know how many turns or what starting position that was from though. But judging from the paint chips on certain parts of the wheel only appearing once, I'd say that was not even a full revolution.

I was being ironic, robtek ;) With all due respect, the devs have modelled too many things plain wrong on too many levels, for me to have any confidence in their research and attention to detail. (The good thing is they might as well fix these issues one day and they seem to listen).

That 'thing' is actually a video from A2A dev. team :eek:

Yes, hence the design and purpose of the trim and flap wheel ;)

Anyway Crumpp, next time you fly your 109, would you be so kind and report back to us how it really works? :grin::grin::grin:

Yes exactly, we don't know by how many degrees he actually trimmed the a/c. There is a cut and change of camera position to take a shot of that area. It seems like he's been turning the wheel before the cut as the hand is already in the movement. Great find anyway, you can actually see the gears and the chain speed. This person grabbed the wheel 6 times doing sort of 1/5 turns so I guess you're right, it appears to be a one full turn +-. Only assuming that he started in neutral position (0) and with 5.75 full turns for full range of 11 degrees, it seems to give us a good picture about the operation.

It looks like the original assumption was correct and this is not correctly represented in the sim at the moment. The problem is with other a/c, too (and their rather too swift and easy elevator trim response) but the plane benefiting from this fact the most (due to RL vs. sim discrepancies) is the 109.

S!

Let's not drag this down to a mud sling contest. Greatest would be hear a comment from devs how this was modelled. But so far seems the 5-6 second value is not far from real and within acceptable limits of a game. Yesterday flew a mission in Me110C-7 and trimmed plane to get best performance. It took small inputs and even when diving the input required was small. And it did not distract from flying either,not even during landing. So I think the trim is pretty OK even with it's peculiarities.

Aside from A2A also note that Tony Bianci has been flying WWI and WWII warbirds, including various Spitfires, since 1961 and his company are also the ones currently restoring the Tempest V.

Is he contactable?

Send him a note

http://personalplaneservices.com/contact-us.html

S!

It would better if he could post straight here without messengers in between to get the message thru once and for all :D

I find that some of you, right or wrong, can be exceptionally aggressive about your views, at times. I think back to the thread on the Revi gunsight and the hysterical knee-jerking that went on there before, after dozens of pages, some finally calmed down enough to realise they have two eyes whose images the brain readily combines and that it may well be possible that the revi worked without looking directly through it with BOTH eyes. Before that point, however, these same people, who were ultimately wrong, let off such a tirade against a poster presenting careful analysis and evidence that you would think the guy was Hitler himself come to defend Nazism, no better expressed than by none other than the Revi gunsight.

I didn't participate, but I think that discussion, and many others, would have been much simpler if people were not so quick to pounce and judge the views of others. Certainly not before they have given their thoughts and their own thoughts good consideration and in the absence of any sign of malice by the other party.

While I see good reason to doubt whether moving a trim wheel some 2 full rotations was possible in under 5 seconds, and therefore that the time should be extended ingame, I don't think the case has been so thoroughly made out flanker that an expert should post here "to get the message through once and for all".

That's a bit condescending, it seems to me, of the people here who I think have simply taken two legitimate although not equally valid views on quite ambiguous (as yet) 'evidence'. We shouldn't hammer a point home before it has been made out.

AS!

I understand your point Irrational. But if a guy with access to aREAL Bf109 can confirm exactly how fast or slow you can adjust the trim it would cut the useless yadda yadda. And asit sems he has experience of flying and restoring WW2 planes and that is worth a lot more than speculation don't you think?

I for sure would like to have things modelled as well as a game permits,regardless which 'side' the plane represents. That would benefit us all equally. Even I fly mostly the so called blue planes I do not want reds have any irritating bugs or blue..if they can be fixed the better. One sided combat is boring.

So re-phrasing it. Let's wish the guy can provide insight on this matter.

Flanker, I appreciate your re-phrasing. I absolutely agree with the substance of your posts and would love to have someone who has tried the real 109 report back. I too place accuracy of the modelling first and foremost and believe that in a simulator, 'balance' between vehicles has little, if any, applicability. No plane should be changed because its virtual pilots are at disadvantages that applied in real life. That goes for the mechanical guages, carburetors, etc too.

But I find the MANNER, not the INTENT, of some posts and posters corrosive to good discussion. It is like there is an assumption here that people here are self interested afficianados (who dont care about realistic portrayals) of just one or the other side's planes and will resist any and all changes for their benefit. This constant struggle between 'blue' and 'red' pilots is getting a little tiring, frankly.

I just think that the language you are using is jumping the gun - a lot. As near as I can tell, everyone in this thread is just as interested in getting to the truth about trimming and how quickly it could be done. They just seem to disagree somewhat on the present evidence.

Who cares?? A gaming company and he is not in the air....

Everybody cares, Crumpp, but you.

irR4tiOn4L - good points. It's sort of typical for this kind of forums I am afraid.

S!

Well, this forum differs very little if any from others so blame the kettle or pot ;) Only worse was maybe UbiZoo. I admit sometimes being a bit too aggressive in postings, but working on that :) I really enjoy reading discussions with good points/info/data/whatever where the EGO of the posters is pushed aside and issues are seen as they really are, not as a matter of pride etc.

This Bf109 trim issue could be settled more or less if this guy mentioned could share his insight with the plane and flying WW2 planes in general. Ideal would be if the community would have people who are heavily involved with WW2 planes, either flying and restoring/repairing them or both. A true treasure trove of which all would benefit in a positive way.

Agreed, I just wanted to say those things so that arguments would be forestalled.

I should say one thing on the trim issue though - even though I said balance has little application, changing an issue (short trim times) that is inaccurate on all planes (from what has been said) on only one plane (BF109) works against balance and does not work to promote overall realism, even if one issue (bf109 trim) is sorted.

I think you have to be careful to maintain macro realism, even at the expense of micro realism. Sometimes, when you are dealing with something that will affect balance, you have to be careful to implement changes in a balanced way.

What this means is that if the trim is wrong on all planes, it should not be just the 109's that is singled out for attention. I have so far seen this swept under the rug in this thread, as if the 109's trim was somehow a bigger problem than that of other planes. But I'm not convinced that is true. Especially considering that pilots have reported that the 109's trim wheel was quicker and easier to use than that of many other competing designs, it should not be the case ingame that it becomes the hardest plane to trim.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ricane-109.pdf

see 5.

Note the comment by the pilot of the 109 saying the trim adjustment was heavy. In other words, it was not easy to rotate the wheel.

No wonder the 190 went to an electrical trim for the stab.

That was in a dive, where the 109's controls were all very heavy! That is not representative of how heavy the trim might be in a horizontal maneuver. Additionally, others have said the large wheel made it easier than competing designs, and I don't think we should be looking at the 109 trim in isolation.

What SHOULD be taken into accound in CLOD, and is not, however, is the reputed heaviness of the 109's controls in a dive. I've never had to use trim to pull out of a high speed dive in CLOD, and I feel that I should.

What is also interesting out of your linked notes is that the 109 lacked oxygen gear - would this result in a higher effective ceiling for the red fighters?

Extremely interesting also is the pilot's notes on the tendency of the Hurricane pilot to black out where the 109 pilot would not. Initially I read this as pulling more G's, but in actuality, they are saying that the pilots of a hurricane sat more vertically and had a tendency to black out even in similar g maneuvers! I definitely don't see blackout tendencies modelled in the sim, and that would make it rather interesting, wouldn't it, if the 109's pilots could sustain more g without blacking out!

We shouldn't pay attention to just one aspect of that pilot's report.