For better for worse ?
 

So the plan was to give us less updates and info about CLOD to reduce the whining... to avoid negative comments by some members and reduce animosity on the forum.
The new order was implented to facilitate communications between members and developers and "hire" a PR to be our common voice .
New moderation rules were implented to have better and more constructive discussions on this forum. Some disturbing members seems to be gone thru a banning process wich is less permissive than before.

Is this place better now ?

Was it better before?

Actually yes, it was. It's never been worse than the last few days/weeks.

Do you feel there is less whining, fighting and OT subject now ? That there are less futile and endless discussions about unrelated CLOD subjects ?
Less aggressive personnal statements ? The mods are submerged with complaints..So much that they ask us to ignore those comments... They can't handle the forum anymore...
So it seems it is the same as before...But at least before, we had direct conversations with Luthier, we had infos and updates..We felt we were kept in the loop...My conclusion is that the new system isn't working, and now it has become a self inflicted degradation in terms of PR and marketing....

What I see is the same ole complaints made in the same ole style since April 2011. I would lie if I told you that I didn`t see the whine meter going up in recent days, but I don`t blame sudden stop of friday updates for it. I blame the lack of patch. The beta patch to be specific. I`m afraid that 1C made one too many statements on this one and people lost it completely.

What I think is that nor the style nor the general level of complaints changed. We had some weekly updates, but every single such thread ended up in flames, often set by the same people demanding everything at once. Mind you, not all of them complained about the same thing. There are two maybe three complainer groups who demand different things from 1C.

And what did that change. I wouldn`t blame if 1C figured it was to be damned if you do, damned if you don`t. So why even try talking since the same thing happens - aggresive posts about accusing of cheating the customers, completely burying the development plan and threats?

The community had its chance to show support, or maybe just the simplest respect. The community failed in that. Again, as it failed with Oleg Maddox` Ready Room miserably. It is obvious that some folks who have been complaining at 1C to hell and back, do not see any kind of their fault in this.

TBH I didn`t get an impression that I`d got left out of dev loop. All I saw was dev updates got a bit fewer over the time. The 1C`s explanation of running into some problems and working hard on them seemed ok to me. Because in spite of what the whiners say, Luthier always had something for us when he returned with some more info, and update. The banjo thing was a direct effect of whinerfest of people that couldn`t hold their bladder.

Then BlackSix came and said few things, made some good threads. He got flamed in the very same manner as before, when it was quite silent on the boards.

For those reasons I think dev updates changed nothing. We`ve got some people with nasty attitude here, who will always drag a dev update thread into their own personal matters. People just love to complain and make a fuss about it, what has been proven by some of the more vocal persons here on the boards in recent week.

I`d like to have the updates back again. But I don`t blame 1C for stopping them as the community`s promises about calming the mood have been false from the start.

I have been a member of the Il2 community since the beginning and Oleg has had my full backing and support.
Every week or so (I visit the UBI forum far more often even though it's all but dead there) I stop by this forum to see what is going on with CloD hoping that some new patch will allow me to finally fly it.
I have to honest and say that I was very disappointed when CloD was finally released last year and my decent rig couldn't run it.
That being said, I still have faith that the issues in CloD are being worked on and that someday I will be able to enjoy it as much as '46.
Until now, I was not aware of the moderators banning members for constructive criticism. There surely must have been something more going on for the ban hammer to fall.
As far as I'm concerned, at least for now, I have kept rather quiet about the shortcomings of CloD.
It is a beautiful looking sim with so much potential and am greatly looking forward to the day when the team finally has a polished product.

Well I've been here for a short time and I've only complained once, and only about one thing: their decision to stop communications because of the vocal minority who bash the developers. This happens in every company and in every industry. You cannot simply cut communications with an entire customer base because of what a fraction of those customers have done.

This is not the way a professional should conduct business.

So now you can state as fact that there are more complaints since that news broke, and direct them to my post.

Giving importance to the whiners, by modifying your behavior according to their attitude, is the worst way to react for MG. A clever company would

1) Ignore the trolls (they are in every forum)
2) improve quality and frequency of their communication, in order to nurture and promote an healthy base of customers.

I'm very sorry to explain the ABC of business and life.

They tried that. It failed miserably.

MXMADMAN's comment is right on. This is the thing : since the new approch does'nt change how a minority behaves here, why not give us, the silent majority, a weekly headup on what is going on , and Luthier goes back to his work, not even reading our comments ? It then becomes OUR problem to deal with whiners and bad mouth childish members...Nothing to do with 1C...
And poor BSix...It is nothing personnal...He should also take a deep breath...For all of us, and no offense here, BlackSix, is a 8 letter word in charge of getting info for us. ANd the same goes for everyone here...Should we all be togheter in a PUB, that would be a nice crowd to deal with...:grin:

And that's the single most important point about the whole communication disaster. These guys are supposed to be professionals. I don't expect them to play internet warrior with a bunch of guys on a forum. Post regular, substantial updates (doesn't even have to be every week if there's nothing to report), treat your customers with respect, ignore the more obvious bashing/whining and be done with it.

I've been running a small company for the last 10 years and if I acted this way whenever I felt some customer treated me so totally unfair I could've closed my business years ago.

Totally right, mate. Whoever is in business understands your words.

How can an "ignore" attitude fail? Ignore means that you don't care, not the other way round.

Insuber is also right on...Trolls are not 1C's problem...Trolls are our problem to deal with. And that is why we have Moderators. A Forum is an information and discussion tool. If you cut info, what would we talk about ? Well, look at the recent posts, and the answer is there....
By not keeping up with true and constant updates about COD's progress makes it look like if 1C was in trouble...or angry at his custommers for not being patient and understanding enough....and that generates more bad than good within the community...This is how it works in all business....

They ignored the constant trolling and the forum was a disaster area.

Can you provide me a link to your forum where you post constant updates about what you are doing? I'd like to see how that works for you.

Perhaps you misunderstood. 1C is a video game company, whereas our forum friend probably does not.

If you own a Circle K franchise location, your communications will not require a forum. However, if a customer walks in right after a really nasty customer leaves, he cannot say, "look, I'm not going to talk to you because some of my customers are jerks".

So, I like the fact that you're trying to get him to prove his case, but your investigation is a little misguided.

Only thing I know for sure is that no mater what 1C does..

There will be someone that is not happy with it..

Thus there will allways be whining..

Just human nature!

With that said the 'health' of a product can be judged based on the 'percentage of users' whining..

Which is not to be confused with the 'percentage' of whining!

In that as we have seen in this forum, the 'majority' of 'whining' is/was produced by a very select few (6 or so).

That is to say 'most' of the users here understand what it takes to make a game, and they realise that most games these days take months if not years to flush out bugs.

With that said..

I think CoD is right inline with most modern games

But a new commer to this forum would not leave with that impression based on the 'percentage' of whining posts in this forum..

Unless said new commer took the time to notice that the 'majority' of whins are repeated over and over by a selet few.

Sorry Parab if I'm answering for you.

http://developer.x-plane.com/

you can also go back and see what they were writing about the developing of the simulator BEFORE the coming out on the market.

A disaster for whom ?

And how would you qualify the state of the forum now, keeping in mind what is the purpuse of a forum...

I didn't misunderstand at all. The fact that 1C is a video game company is completely irrelevant. He's demanding constant updates. Well, I'd like to see where he provides constant updates.

There were constant updates in here BEFORE CoD was released. What's your point?

For everyone. The quality has not changed much. That's part of the reason they're no longer posting updates.

I'm a citizen and i'm demanding alot of things from the politicians ,well they are not doing that mostly :evil:,.. oh David, now I understand, I'm not in a parliament so I cannot ask something from them.:-x

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

My point is clear if you compare the quality and the quantity of info that the xplane blog is giving to the customer in comparison with the info that we have about Cod.

They look similar to me. Was that your point?

That analogy is not a good one imho

The Clerk behind the counter of the Circle K is obligated to answer the customers questions.. i.e.

Customer: "How much is this bottle of milk?"
Clerk: "It is $2.45"

Customer: "When is the shipment of the new Playboy coming in"
Clerk: "Monday afternoon"

But the Clerk behind the counter of the Circle K is NOT obligated to answer the following customers questions.. i.e.

Customer: "What are you plans for this weekend"
Clerk: "No comment"

Customer: "Are you going to replace Pepsi with Coke?"
Clerk: "No comment"

Ah ok David. Well we run on totally different languages so.

Did you look at the comments on that board. They appeared to be acting like adults. Most likely that because all the non-adults were banned.

Indeed.

IMO the problem here is made by 2 categories of posters:

- The offensive whiners (because everyone has the right to complain without being offensive)
http://www.commpro.biz/wp-content/up...lmediarant.jpg

- The posters that whine at the whiners
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/atta...plain_here.jpg

How do you know it? Can you post me a list of the banned guys?

Can it be that they act as adult because they are treated in a fair way?

Ops... No... Forgive me.. Forget what I said.

But tell me the truth... do they pay you? :-|

You are being too kind. Here is the CoD forum:

Customer: "Are you going to plan an addition?"

Customer: "When will it be ready?"

Customer: "I want the walls to be painted green. If they're not green I'm never going to visit your store."

Customer2: "I want the walls to be red. If they're not green I'm never going to visit your store."

Customer: "Do you have any pictures of the new addition model?"

Customer: "That sucks. I don't want the addition to have a basement. You are wasting resources."

Customer: "Why have you stopped talking to me?"

People in here were treated in a fair way. They have complained constantly anyways.

1C aren't business people to be "dealt" with in such manner (well yes, business is involved and I'm not saying as such that they aren't "business people"), they are creative people. Its a whole different approach....
poets, writers, movie makers, artists/ illustrators, actors, set designers, etc, etc, etc - not bean counting number crunchers, but as real people, is the way to go in receiving good response.

For anyone out there... you go and put up your pride and joy and offer that for critiscism (of the such seen here) and how would you feel?

(I can tell you right now how you would feel ;) )

If they were paying me I would tell them to shut this forum down.

That's all fine, except that is not a true representation of what 1C is doing. They're not answering any questions at all, and blaming it on their customers past responses. So let's say your example above is customer A, and he leaves.

Then customer B walks in and asks the exact same questions, but now the clerk responds to them all by saying, "I'm tired of all of you asking the same questions and being so rude." And then continues to give them a blank stare for the duration of the visit.

But, again, 1C does not own any Circle K's, so you should be less literal in your analyzation.

That is simply a lie.

David, just so I'm clear, would you say that Luthier & team have provided us with adequate info and communication?

I had not doubts about it my friend.

Anyway, I'm waiting the list of the banned guys. Because you know:

11. False Information - Dissemination of false information regardless of the poster's awareness.

Don't worry I'm going to report you if you'll not provide it. ;-)

I can only speak for me. They have provided me with adequate communication. They're working on a patch, and they're working on a sequel. I thought the video of player controlled ground vehicles looked pretty cool.

I have no idea how much hand holding you were hoping to get.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

My customers praise and criticize, according to the quality of my services (which involve a certain degree of creativity ...). I feel like a supplier all the time, in both cases.

Nice insult, you're real mature.

Maybe they get treated in a fair way, because they act as adults.

I do not need a forum since I (and my employees) communicate with my customers directly via phone, fax, emails, letters or personal meetings.

Forums are a great feature for a company to provide communication with a very large number of customers. I don't expect Luthier to give me a phone call explaining in detail CloD development to me (it would be nice, though :grin:), but I expect a somewhat professional communication via the only means available to me, that is: the forum.

I feel almost silly that I obviously have to point out that honest and regular communication with the customers is the very foundation of a successful business.

You know, I totally hate telling my customers bad news. Often the problem is not even my personal fault. And yet I'm the one receiving the flak. And guess what? They are my customers, they pay my bills, it's their damn right to get cranky when stuff goes wrong and it's my responsibility to deal with them.

@wolf-rider: it doesn't matter if they're artists or not, the fact is that they are running a business and should conduct themselves accordingly.

Plus, if you're a professional artist and you can't handle extremely negative criticism from just about anyone, you will not be a professional for very long.

good... now abuse your telco and watch what happens

I agree 100% with you. It looks that someone doesn't understand the ABC of business, or has a very low level of expectations from their suppliers.

Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"

Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"


Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"


Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"


Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"


Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"


Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"


Friday update" "we've discovered a bug, but, we're working on the patch

Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"


Friday update: "Yes, we're working on the patch"

Perhaps "someone" just doesn't understand "creative people"

If people really want to get angry at "the business", they really need to take it up with UBI.

Abuse ... what and when????????? Call centers are harassed by angry customers, but telcos never quit the communication channels ... my mobile phone company is not an example of customer service, but they communicate with me via a forum, a 24/7 chat, a 24/7 hot line, mail updates on technical interventions, phone calls and now even via Twitter. And all this for 16.99 €/month ... everything unlimited, which means a 2-3 €/month of margin. So you choose the wrong example, mate.

not the wrong example at all, sport

Of course David, of course...

Nope Sir. You have all wrong, sorry. UBI is the publisher, responsible basically for the distribution of the product done by MG/1C. We are now facing software issues, that is developer's stuff.

UBI is not producing the update, nor responsible for giving us updates. It does not matter if they're creative or not, and I can guarantee they're not all artists. Game companies have art departments, but its far from being the only department.

Regardless of these facts, they are a business. They are businessmen because of this. They are accountable. Citing bad people skills as an excuse just won't cut it.

In other words, your personal story is completely unrelated to this situation.

Sorry if you see it as insulting, but that is exactly what you are looking for. They are working on an update. If you need more info than that, then you are looking for someone to hold you hand while you wait.

And the art department despite their "totally artistic work" follow strict timing and complaints...

I think that means that they're working on a patch.

Tell that BS face to face to your customers, and you will see how long you can survive in business.
But in a certain way you are right about the "artist approach". I would call it "technological excellence", i.e. people buy your wonderful creations despite your bad temper or poor customer service. But I'm afraid it's not yet the case for CloD.

Cheers,
Ins

You've got it wrong, on all points, sorry to say... except for bad people skills from some forum members, and that's what they're reacting to


wellll... that is what is being demanded from the developers by a vocal few here, each and every Friday. WHile things are being worked on, sorted out and run through the mill , that is all that is likely to be forthcoming... "Yes, we're working on the patch"

What do people want? A line by line hand holding excercise, each time a key is tapped??

We don't even tell them that much. We assume that they're bright enough to understand that we are constantly working on updating our software.

Oh ok, since you said so...

Pro tip: evidence and specificity are key when proving a point.

well, you "said so"

tip: hypocrisy is not becoming

So please be kind and help the developers to deal also with the others like us that are not clever enough...

So, David, now that we are at 7 pages of this very constructive discussion and you , who considers himself as a respectful adult, are already in the " personnal negative comments zone" if I put it nicely, I ask you again my initial question : is the forum better off now ? :grin:

It's not personally negative at all. Some people just need to have someone hold their hand.

No, thanks to pointless threads about whether the forum is better, it's not.

If that's all the news there is, so be it.

We would like to hear it.

And if any more insight can be provided, such as more details of what they are working on, that is of interest.

The very angry and dissatisfied will not be happy with that, but most people who have bought the game and are waiting for improvements will appreciate that small amount of communication.

You actually need me to provide evidence that game companies have art departments? And evidence that 1C is actually a business?

What are you talking about? You can't honestly believe that either of those points are not true.

If you would be more specific in your accusations (I.e. not saying that everything I said is wrong when clearly that's not the case) then ill be more specific in my proof.

Well you see, that is the thing here...Obliviously, your comment was perceived by some as personnal and negative. It is not debatable . It is why a forum is so hard to manage.

And if this thread is such a pointless one, what the hell are you doing here ?! :grin:

You proved my points ! Thanks ! ;)

I have no idea what you are talking about.

:D:D:D:D:D

It's too funny to be real...

I suspect DH is a troll guys so best to ignore him. He's just trying to start arguments and spread disunity amoungst the community, he was even being sarcastic to the people with dissagreeing with you. He probably doesnt even own the game. Just look back over this thread, you'll see he's probably poorly chap in many ways.

some ppl are plain and hopelessly uncorrectable with their usual tiny cryptic cynic posts... i fell like cracking a joke:

Q: you know the difference between an A320 and david hayward?
R: the A320 is an airliner and david hayward is a one-liner :grin:

don't take it personal, you had it coming..

(sorry for the off topic XL5)

he's not a troll... you just don't agree with what he writes (which is okay... agreeing to disagree is a productive outcome)

That is also my impression.

We're all trolling. There are only 4 reasons to be posting right now.

1. you are looking for help with the game
2. you are helping someone with the game
3. you are reporting a bug
4. you are trolling

yeah....I hope he is pulling my leg...;)

No. I believe he is a troll wolf rider, a troll who likes to upset people.
No matter what he says be it right or wrong its always dressed up in some pompus bile, which is a shame because sometimes i might agree with some things he says, but as i said he doesnt care about any of that, just about the control and power he can gain over others by his approach.

5. trying to talk sense to problem children

You are missing # 5 and 6 , and that explains it all...

The problem with that is the problem children think that they're doing the same to you.