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MW50 -Secondary effects were cooling of the engine .

1) BF 109 could use full engine power (110%) with MW 50, 10 minutes with MW50 without engine damage.
But the Luftwaffe ONLY, not recommended that.

The pilot could use MW50 more time... Maximum 20 minutes
It was his choice.

That does not mean, you got engine on fire after 13 minutes.
Ofcourse 15 minutes = cylinder heads developed micro-cracks, But the engine is still operating.

2) A friend uses water methanol in a car.
I can send them pictures of the engine :-P

One Thing... I can assure
It cools the engine

I think I never saw represented in IL2, the effect of the engine cooling for MW 50.
I think ....

Quote:

MW 50 (Methanol-Wasser 50) was a 50-50 mixture of methanol and water (German: Wasser) that was often sprayed into the supercharger of World War II aircraft engines primarily for its anti-detonant effect, allowing the use of increased boost pressures.

Secondary effects were cooling of the engine and charge cooling. Higher boost was only effective at altitudes below the full-throttle height, where the supercharger could still provide additional boost pressure that was otherwise wasted, while the smaller secondary effects were useful even above that altitude.

MW 50 is something of a misnomer, as it is actually a mixture of three fluids: 50% methanol acting primarily to achieve optimum anti-detonant effect, secondarily as an anti-freeze; 49.5% water; and 0.5% Schutzöl 39, an oil-based anti-corrosion additive.
The similar MW 30 increased the water to 69.5% and decreased methanol to 30%.[1]
[b]This increased the cooling performance[B] but made it easier to freeze, the mixture intended to be used for lower-altitude missions.

EW 30 and EW 50 mixtures also existed, which substituted methanol with ethanol; in emergency, pure water could be used.
The effect of MW 50 injection could be dramatic. Simply turning on the system allowed the engine to pull in more air due to the charge cooling effect, boosting performance by about 100 hp (75 kW) on the BMW 801 and DB 605. However, the MW 50 also allowed the supercharger to be run at much higher boost levels as well, for a combined increase of 500 hp (370 kW).
At sea level, this allowed the 1,600 hp (1,200 kW) engine to run at over 2,000 hp (1,500 kW). MW 50 was fully effective up to about 6,000 m (20,000 ft), above which it added only about 4% extra power, due largely to charge cooling.

The increased power could be used for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time, much like the American war emergency power setting for their own aircraft, with at least five minutes between each application.[2]
Aircraft generally carried enough MW 50 for about two ten-minute periods of use, allowing them to increase their climb rate and level speed in combat for interception missions. Fittings for MW 50 first appeared on the BMW 801D in 1942, but it never went into production for this engine because the cylinder heads developed micro-cracks when MW 50 was used. Instead, the DB 605-engined later versions of the Messerschmitt Bf 109 were fitted with an MW 50 injection system, beginning in early 1944. Later engine designs all included the fittings as well, notably the Junkers Jumo 213, which relied on it to reduce non-boosted performance and tune the supercharger for higher altitudes.

MW 50 was not the only charge cooling system to be used by the Germans. Some engines dedicated to high altitude included an intercooler instead, as they would be needing the cooling for longer periods of time.
The 801D also included the ability to spray gasoline into the supercharger[2] (the Erhöhte Notleistung [Increased Emergency Performance] system), in place of the MW 50. While this was not as effective, it did increase boost without the complexity of the additional tanking and plumbing. Additionally, many of the late-war engines also included a system for high-altitude boost, GM-1, which was intended to add oxygen to the fuel/air mix by injecting nitrous oxide into the supercharger[2] instead of employing higher boost levels.

Quote:

Due to the cooling effect of the water, aircraft engines can run at much higher manifold pressures without detonating, creating more power. This is the primary advantage of a water injection system when used on an aircraft engine.
The extra weight and complexity added by a water injection system was considered worthwhile for military purposes, while it is usually not considered worthwhile for civil use. The one exception is racing aircraft, which are focused on making a tremendous amount of power for a short time; in this case the disadvantages of a water injection system are less important.

Quote:

Many water injection systems use a mixture of water and alcohol (approximately 50/50), with trace amounts of water-soluble oil. The water provides the primary cooling effect due to its great density and high heat absorption properties. The alcohol is combustible, and also serves as an antifreeze for the water. The purpose of the oil is to prevent corrosion of water injection and fuel system components. [2] Because the alcohol mixed into the injection solution is often methanol (CH3OH), the system is known as methanol-water injection, or MW50. In the United States, the system is commonly referred to as anti-detonant injection, or ADI.
[edit]Effects

In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. The water (if in small liquid droplets) may absorb heat (and lower the pressure) as the charge is compressed, thus reducing compression work.[1] An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. This also converts part of combustion energy from the form of heat to the form of pressure. As the water droplets vaporize by absorbing heat, it turns to high pressure steam (water vapor or steam mainly resulted from combustion chemical reaction). The alcohol in the mixture burns, but is also much more resistant to detonation than gasoline. The net result is a higher octane charge that will support very high compression ratios or significant forced induction pressures before onset of detonation.
Fuel economy can be improved with water injection. Depending on the engine, the effect of water injection, with no other modification, like leaning out the mixture, may be quite significant[1] or rather limited and in some cases negligible.
In some cases water may also reduce CO emissions, this might be attributable to the water-gas shift reaction, in which CO and H2O shift to form CO2 and H2.[1] However, water may also increase hydrocarbon emissions, possibly due to an increased quenching layer thickness.
Some degree of control over the water injection is important. It needs to be injected only when the engine is heavily loaded and the throttle is wide open. Otherwise injecting water cools the combustion process unnecessarily and reduces efficiency.

Oleg got it pretty right. You could use MW50 continuously for about 10 mins without damaging the engine in former versions. Don't know what the current change was based upon though. But FatCat has said in the forum that the MW50 would be corrected in the next patch. Let's wait and see.

4.101 was released in about one and a half month after the realease of 4.10. So I guess we will see 4.111 pretty soon.

Edit: The capacity of the MW50 tank on 109s could hold the amount of fluid that can provide approximately 26 minutes' running, while 35 minutes on D9 and TA. Oleg has also got this modeled in the game. But the WEP on other aircrafts could be enabled forever. I hope TD will also get this corrected one day.

cooling the combustion process is not the same as cooling the engine

... just saying

Wrong.
Read what I wrote
Sorry...

German testing showed that simply adding water injection at full throttle (without increasing boost) increased power by about four percent while dropping manifold temp by about 35 degrees F.

One should not forget that engine duration is as much important for pilots as performance. In real life, using emergency boost seriously shortened the engine life expectancy and is sometimes even fatal for the next sorties (e.g. engine seizes during the take off in the next flight). That's why real life pilots flew much more carefully than us now. I doubt that pilots will engage MW-50 in every encounters.
In game, there is no system for engine abuse punishment, so everyone will happily engage MW-50 as long as the engine can still endure. It's highly unrealistic. Some compormises would have to be made here. Either one leaves the MW-50 as it should be and relies on gamer's faithfulness of realism, or one porks MW-50. Both solutions are equally reasonable, none is perfect.

Some pilos has a few hours of flight.

If luftawaffe recommended 10 minutes for MW50 , 5 minutes stop, and 10 minutes more for MW50.

In that situation, I empty the tank MW50, especially fighting in proportion 6 to 1 or 10 to 1

Looking at the numbers for manufacturing of the BF 109.

The last years of the war had more BF 109, than pilots to fly them.

I think the pilot's life and win the match, was the point at that time.

Especially if you faced the Mustangs, they were vastly superior.
You will always need the MW50, in that duel.

so, what you mean is this:
**** ze engine, i want to survaif!!

if you think like that (yea, i can do to the engine what ever i want)

then be consequent, and accept that if you respawn your engine might die,
just as you are being attacked by planes that have stars and bars on them.
because you played "greenhorn pilot" and "ignore manual" last time.

you will be shot down either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 398356)

Especially if you faced the Mustangs, they were vastly superior.
You will always need the MW50, in that duel.

Of course, they had 50's......... and we all know that 50's won teh war........

@HundertneunGustav, Thanks
If I have very few pilots, and many buided BF 109, the pilots must keep alive, at any way.

@Fruitbat

The mw50 not won the war
The war was won by the heroic Russian people.
With 22 million heroes, fallen for their motherland.
His courage won the war!

New point.
My point IS MW 50 is good for the engine. and have coolin efect.

My las credit in this forum.... maybe

Quote:

and as the mixture absorbs heat and vaporizes,
temperatures inside the cylinder are reduced= cooling

2) Can water/meth injection damage my engine?
With most aftermarket parts there's always the possibility of damage, but not if the unit is installed and used properly. As long as the injection system is working properly, it can only do good things. Since the water and methanol will help dissolve carbon buildup, it can keep your spark plugs, valves, and combustion chambers very clean, too.

Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...#ixzz1ownDQALK

3) Can you run just water injection without methanol?
Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane-boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane.
Without methanol, you may not make as much power.

Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...#ixzz1owmmuqxK

= cooling

I try not to use capital letters for ... but is very dificult ;)
Point 2) and 3) "it can only do good things" ..."thus you will get cooling from the water"

Read more:

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...n/viewall.html

Ok.
All can close the eyes ??
As usual , no common sense???

I think not.

you are trying hard, so
+1 credit for that

yet, a lot of questions remain un-answered.
i know nothing of either cars nor plane engines, so i can only advise to be careful.

a) the system you present is a modern one - differences between modern W/M injection systems and technology from 1942 should, must be studied before claiming "the effect is the same - it cools the engine"

b) are the fluids used chemically the same?

c) how did pilots operate the system? what were their experiences, advantages and drawbacks, dangers?

d) okay, so... lets take it easy. lets say, the engine is cooled. The Db-60x series are a big piece of machinery, so , more specific questions must be figured out.
-what exact part(s) of the engine will lose temperature?
-how much?
-what does that change to engine operation, and how is power output effected?

Because:
uuhhh, ahhhh, modern systems cool the engine, so, in a 109 that means i get -35° temperature loss, and that again means i can have longer MW50 operation...

--> not commonsense, simplification.
and simplification can not be our common goal, or we would be playing Ace combat.
--> common sense is to preserve your engine, because your life depends on it.
--> not closed eyes, no! eyes wide open, and very critical, analytic, observing, asking questions.

Every time you start a flight, you get a perfectly new plane - right? systems are 100% healthy. There is no option to "use the plane from the last flight" - the game does not remember if you respected the manual last time you flew it. if you used MW50 for too long (7 seconds? 2 seconds?) or if you respected the 5 minutes pause (4:55?)

So, by
- misinterpreting engine and boost systems facts,
- and engine manual, and OKL recommendations,
- and 2x10 with 5 min pause could be possibly maybe correct(?)

-> and then getting a new plane for the next flight... that... is cheating.

Recently, TD has taught us to respect the engine, the Hardware:
you pull too many G- you die
you push too many G - you die
you play with the Throttles like a maniac: you die

basically:
You push your plane to the very extreme corner of its possibilities: you die.
Do not do that, or you will die.

so even IF this system could possibly improve performance of the Db-60X powered planes...
you die.

And NOT DYING... is common sense.

Quote:

a) the system you present is a modern one - differences between modern W/M injection systems and technology from 1942 should, must be studied before claiming "the effect is the same - it cools the engine"

Water cools the engine in present and in 1942 ;).
Read my link
You can buy and put Water/ Methanol kit in any engine virtually, with the same results .

Quote:

b) are the fluids used chemically the same?
"

Yes common wather and common methanol ;)
No secrets here.

Quote:

d) okay, so... lets take it easy. lets say, the engine is cooled. The Db-60x series are a big piece of machinery, so , more specific questions must be figured out.
-what exact part(s) of the engine will lose temperature?
-how much?
-what does that change to engine operation, and how is power output effected?

The P51 have many problems like this

Quote:

C.C. Jordan=

I have data that indicates that the
P-51D, measures 48 lbs in a 3g pull. Up to 86 Lbs at
5g's.
The P-47D, OTOH, requires just 16 lbs at 3g and 27 lbs at 5g's.
The testers state that the Mustang was a true "two hander".

Just do something.
If special ignore other things

Thanks to these omissions
My P51 can be turn with the BF 109

Ok forget Mustang Sorry :P

Quote:

Because:
uuhhh, ahhhh, modern systems cool the engine, so, in a 109 that means i get -35° temperature loss, and that again means i can have longer MW50 operation...

The luftwaffe tell you. The mw 50 not work over 6000 mts, for system freezes.

Quote:

Every time you start a flight, you get a perfectly new plane - right? systems are 100% healthy. There is no option to "use the plane from the last flight" - the game does not remember if you respected the manual last time you flew it. if you used MW50 for too long (7 seconds? 2 seconds?) or if you respected the 5 minutes pause (4:55?)

Like the others planes have the same.

For MW50.
"it can only do good things. Since the water and methanol will help dissolve carbon buildup, it can keep your spark plugs, valves, and combustion chambers very clean, too!."

Quote:

basically:
You push your plane to the very extreme corner of its possibilities: you die.
Do not do that, or you will die.

so even IF this system could possibly improve performance of the Db-60X powered planes...
you die.

And NOT DYING... is common sense.

I'll just say one thing

Are debunking current evidence
Of and operates water methanol.

Is a Fact

Please We continue here.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=30181&page=4

:-P

Close this please ;)