What do you search in a combat flight sim?
 

Thank to our mate Carguy I'm asking myself how much the community is divided about the priorities in a combat flight sim.

@Carguy: I've never imposed my thought to anyone... you can choose to ignore me or discuss the matter as people do in every message board. At least I've not imposed it like many here who claim CloD the best sim ever done forcing the disagreeing people to run away. Usually they don't ever take time to discuss in a constructive way, since when you criticize their toy it's like molesting their children...



Anyway these are my priority lists about a combat flight sim:

High priorities
- Flight model (it's a flight sim... every plane should fly almost like the real one)
- Virtual pilot simulation (fatigue management, visibility skill, G-forces, damage model)
- Damage models
- Weapon's historycal performance and calibration.
- Communications (between pilots and with ground control... think about calling the mechanic because of an issue during the engine startup, talking directly to the command for info, having the command that alert you of a plane seen by some civil observers on the coast)
- Sound engine
- Demanding management of the plane (not only engine management, but also belts, oxigen, gunsight's bulbs ect...)
- Atmospheric simulation (sun, clouds, haze.. maybe not visually perfect, but they must be there and must be VERY important for the pilot)

Low priorities
- Object 3D models
- 3D world graphics
- Visual effects
- Airbase life
- AI

Needless things
- Clickable cockpit
- Manual ammo belt management
- Interactive flak
- Dynamic weather
- Extreme weather like rain or storm
- City life (it's a war... why should bombed families turn on the light? Here in Italy if you turned on the light you were to be strafed)... no, cows are useless...
- Women between the pilot's arms


As you see graphics are low between my priorities... and both WoP and CloD are not passable to me: the former is limited in many aspect, the latter "could be" more complete but at the end is a pile of unfinished code.
By the way one of the most beautiful civil sims I've ever bought is Condor... Visually is ugly (old) but the feeling is great!

I hope it's clear now...

What about your priorities?

S!

For me the FM and DM come above all. If those are whatever not even the fanciest ey candy can save the product. I can live with less graphics if the rest is damn well done. After all you are flying a plane, not sightseeing if a pub or bordello has correct curtains in windows ;)

It is always a trade. You can simply not have photorealistic graphics with a damn detailed FM and DM + lotsa AI. No system can run that. So cut down the eye candy to be purposeful for a FLIGHT sim and make the rest better..in short :)

Hi Manu,

Good thread again ;)

Here are mines. I edited your post as it was a close match. I hope you won't mind

~S!

Yes!Excellent!Oh great wld it be to hve an animation with the mech explaining to us what he had to fix on the plane and what we shld monitor in our flightA key to unleash or tighten the seat belt wld be awesome !- wheater and gust simulation : the plane shld be shacking, the wing shld rock instead of being so steady, our sight shld be blurred by the vibration at low alt and high speed - a beautifully legged female pilot (oh sry was it me or you adding this one ?this was really the devil entry door (no links with the above) :shock:taking ctrl of the AAA guns on the ground is a fun idea IMOHO (still no link with the above ;) ) disagree (see above)Planes were ordered to fly in very challenging weather during the war - IMOHO it's a mustlol

Beside the as real as possible FM, DM and CEM, believable sourroundings and as much little detail as can be inserted without endangering fluid playing, i'd like to see changing weather.

To go on a mission with 6/8 cloud cover, maybe finding the clear weather over the target, just to come back low on fuel, having to land in a rainstorm with gusty wind, after finding your base under the now closed cloud cover with the base at 1000ft.

A combat flight simulation developer that continues to support their products after release and strives for the most realistic experience possible.

I look for contacts that are not flying on the same side as me.

Realism and inmersion.

All i want is a lot of noobs to shoot and bomb. :twisted::lol:

High priorities
- Flight model (it's a flight sim... every plane should fly almost like the real one)
- Virtual pilot simulation (fatigue management, visibility skill, G-forces, damage model)
- Damage models
- Weapon's historycal performance and calibration.
- Communications (between pilots and with ground control... think about calling the mechanic because of an issue during the engine startup, talking directly to the command for info, having the command that alert you of a plane seen by some civil observers on the coast)
- Sound engine
- Demanding management of the plane (not only engine management, but also belts, oxigen, gunsight's bulbs ect...)
- Atmospheric simulation (sun, clouds, haze.. maybe not visually perfect, but they must be there and must be VERY important for the pilot)
- Object 3D models
- 3D world graphics
- Visual effects
- Airbase life-service personel on ground refuel/rearm/small repair.
- AI
- Clickable cockpit
- Manual ammo belt management
- Interactive flak
- Dynamic weather
- Extreme weather like rain or storm
- City life (it's a war... why should bombed families turn on the light? Here in Italy if you turned on the light you were to be strafed)... no, cows are useless...
- and more I havent thought about yet ;)



I dont mind at all for all the expantions as long nothing goes arcade. It bring more life to the sim, more people more money and expantions and addons.
Yes its a flightsim but think out of your usual box for a sek. I play Arma 1 & 2. Its the soldier its about and it very detailed, what you can do. But you are able to do so mutch, becarse you are able to drive, and fly as well. But not as in a car sim or in a flightsim. But it make the game very much alive and thats what its about. More people cut start on the ground do stuff and then when get interested in flying and start doing that. But nothing like Battlefield 1, 2 or 3 please.

+1

The reason I bought the original IL-2 series many years ago was that I'd heard through friends and games magazines that it was the most realistic ww2 flight simulator available. Ultimately that's what I want in a flight sim, the most realistic and historically accurate simulation of what it was like to fly and fight in and against the different kites of ww2.

So for me the highest priority is how well every plane is modeled and how close it represents flying the real one both in terms of performance and aircraft management. There's no point having an accurate Spitfire if the 109 model is messed up and vice versa. Combat modelling is also essential, ballistic modelling and detailed damage models, accurate deterioration of my planes flight model through engine mismanagement or as it's slowly turned to swiss cheese. Environmental modelling is good - turbulence, different weather conditions, the suns glare etc etc all help to build immersion.

Historical accuracy is everything to me in a ww2 flight sim and my belief that I'm playing the most advanced and accurate simulation is key to my enjoyment.

Realism, immersion and atmosphere.

healthy compettition miss comabts that ended in a salute

Immersion would be the my highest priority. Sure graphics and flight models and historical realism, AI and all the rest need to be 'good enough' but I'ld rather lower the visual settings to allow a more diverse environment.

A lot of the immersion comes from mission design, and I have a great deal of respect for the members of the community that are making missions and running the multiplayer servers. One of the biggest priorities must a set of user documents to help these guys out with their scripting and mission creation. When you think what these guys have done without the detailed documentation, imagine what they will be able to do when they have access to all the relevant information!


:)

+1

A well-built dynamic campaign. Scripted campaigns are for first-person-shooters.

Something that RB2 and TAW really got right.

i want too, a very nice dynamic mission generator. (i am tired to use the full mission generator),
i want that the QMG surprise me in a nice mission, with low and very dispersed aircraft, not 3 squadrons of 4 aircraft each one.
is for that i like small battles in big complex zones, like Crimea, Odessa, Finland, Africa, and another places of the east front.
i don't like so much common zones, and big raids.

example: fly a rumanian 109E/B in Odessa, with a coupe of he112 and attack biplanes , and be attacked by ppolikartovs, but the entire map need to have small groups of planes at the same time, but i dont need to know about the other operations from my airforce and either the enemy airforfce.;. that is i like.

i will sue your list and edit to my likes,


Anyway these are my priority lists about a combat flight sim:

High priorities
- Flight model (it's a flight sim... every plane should fly almost like the real one) - BINGO
- Damage models - strike 2
- Sound engine - meh, this is a priority yes, but i very usually play soundless anyway.
- Demanding management of the plane (not only engine management, but also belts, oxigen, gunsight's bulbs ect...) - yes yes and yes.
- Atmospheric simulation (sun, clouds, haze.. maybe not visually perfect, but they must be there and must be VERY important for the pilot)
- AI - OK, this is probably, in my opinion, your bigest miss. we wont ever get 100 guys flying in the same server online, and even if we do, it will turn soon into a airquake. AI can keep fill the gaps and an easy way around to have historical size fights.


Low priorities
- Object 3D models - yes, i will be seeing them from high above, no need for uber detail. 1946 was about balanced
- 3D world graphics - Low priority, but still a priority
- Visual effects - Low priority, but still a priority
- Airbase life
- Weapon's historycal performance and calibration. -mixed feelings
- Communications (between pilots and with ground control... think about calling the mechanic because of an issue during the engine startup, talking directly to the command for info, having the command that alert you of a plane seen by some civil observers on the coast) -Low priority, but still a priority

Needless things
- Clickable cockpit -this is not needless. but isnt a priority too. its done already and works fine. i like it, and saves A LOT of time setting up keys.
- Manual ammo belt management - mixed feelings
- Interactive flak - THIS! THIS! THIS!, please THIS!
- Dynamic weather -Welll.... no, i guess. not a priority, but not needless
- Extreme weather like rain or storm -Welll.... no, i guess. not a priority, but not needless
- City life (it's a war... why should bombed families turn on the light? Here in Italy if you turned on the light you were to be strafed)... no, cows are useless... - meh. some parked cars, and sandbags in loondon would make it look more life like. now it looks like a zoombie city. still, its not a priority,
- Women between the pilot's arms - KILLL HER!
- Virtual pilot simulation (fatigue management, visibility skill, G-forces, damage model) - Bingo!, i mean, dont you think staying in your pc for 4 hours playing isnt fatiguing enough?, and visibility skills come with time. noobs cant spoot anything in first weeks



Good thread, hope 1c pops in and sees waht we actually want.

Wow! As I thought the term "combat flight sim" means different things for many of us. In the past I had another discussion about mods and how they splitted the IL2 community, claiming that this community was already splitted in many groups: the ones who search realism, the ones who only like to fly and the one who only like to fight... the presence of so different server (talking about difficulty settings) was a proof.

Immersion and realism are vague words: I still remember the post of some guys joking about how the "realism lovers" need to really die when the screen comes black.

So if think that also this to concepts should be clarified.

If the moderators allow me I'll open another thread with a rating system.

@pupo: the actual absence of fatigue permits pilots to sustain high G-forces for dozen of minutes (until they win/die)... it clearly affects realism IMO.

A realistically modeled planeset, a realistically modelled pool of relevant ground and naval objects which are being used to create an immersive and believable environment. Artillery that shells an area, tanks that are having it out with their opponents, truck columns with supplies ... A living, breathing world and not just the "stale" aspect of flying for the sake of flying ... with a campaign like the old Red Baron II. ;)

well, tis that fatigue its SOOOO ahrd to standerize. it would depend on everithing. On your training, your phisical ability, your height and weight, waht you ahd ate, how much time have you flown that day? that week?, are you passing throw some drama? i mean. its just impossible to have a realistic fatigue model.

still, in 1946 you have a ver simple faitgue model, if you hold a medium G turn ( something like 4g's i guess, for enought time, you will eventually black out.

Not so impossible. There is an average for everything. And there is an average for pilot fatigue also. Even if you implement ecceptional pilot fatigue resistance, it would be better than nothing. Currently a player is able to input maximum G (to the point of blacking out) for extended period of time.

In vertical flight where high speed diving is the norm, blacking out is much easier and ofcourse much frequent. Since Russian planes
- cannot reach speeds above 650km/h
- are mostly crappy at vertical maneuvers
they stick to their best tactic which is low speed horizontal, high G turns.
High G turns require applying high stick pressure. You will not black out at low speed, pulling the stick to the maximum for say 4 minutes. What most red pilots do (be it British or Russian planes) - they continously turn in the same direction until the blue plane stalls out or falls out of the turn circle. That is completely unrealistic. Not all red featured planes had light stick pressure. Some (very much like the Bf109)did require exceptional strenght to get the maximum horizontal turn doable by the aircraft airframe. As a result, in certain planes, only the strongest (and with the most stamina!!!) pilots could not only pull maximum horizontal Gs, but very few of them were ever able to sustain this amount stick pressure.

So in summary, in blue planes you can use trim to pull out of a dive BUT still you black out.
Red planes however are always able to pull their max Gs while in horizontal for unlimited time with no danger of blacking out.

Hence red planes expoit absence of pilot fatigue heavily in their favor.

You can always make it the same as blackout. When you pull max G for say 2minutes, your max stick pressure lowers itself, resulting in virtual pilot being unable to pull max horizontal G. When player lowers the stick pressure, he ragains fatigue and ability to pull maxG (gradually for say 15 seconds).

It is easy, but would make red pilots cry I know.

Exactly.

Anyway, as for the realistic bombing mod of IL2, a 60% accurate detail is better than a 20% accurate, isn't it?

In this case there is no fatigue at all and not only spit pilots but also high speed BnZers (probably in a lesser way) can fight in that way for dozens of minutes; I can tell you that during our 1v1 trainings sometimes the fight end because of fuel, and we are manoeuvring all the time... 30 minutes?

Use an average value and we are happy.

ok, you are right. i was thinking of a mroe ocmplex fatigue thingy. remodellign the G tolerance taking in consideration nearby pass ( 2 mins or so ) G maneuvering its doable. as you said. ( tough being able to trim in black out is a bad bad bug)
~
regarding the 30 min fight. i remenber viewing in history channel a guy who dogfighted 2 zeros during 20 or 30 min. yeah, its dogfights, but yeah.

Interesting.

I have to agree, simulating fatigue and stamina (isn't that the same?) is a very important step towards a complete cfs!

The pilots with a easy hand on the controls, trying to keep their plane in the optimal attitude at all times, finally would get the advantage they had in RL over the ham fisted ones.

If you dont trim your plane correct it should lower your stamina.

well, thats a two ended stick. trimming in il2 its about 10x harder than in real life ence why people avoid it a lot more.

You really think so?

Iirc, i've adjusted the elevator trim in the C152 almost as often as in the 109 in game, the Pa28 was a bit easier to trim, though.

Anyway, without proper trim -> no top speed, in game as in RL.

well, in RL, i always felt confident of leaving the stick on it self after i was done trimming, in il2 never do i leave the hand out of the joystick, tough i trim all the time.

A girl with sideburns, sitting on my lap. And a Bofors gun

I fly the Bf110 cruising hands free, it takes only longer to trim because of the damn reversal bug in the g940 system.

aaahhhhh the reversal bug. i had 4 g940 thanks to that. finally settled with an x52. i have mixed feelings about the both. overall i think i like mroe the x52 thtottle, except for the lack of buttons ( it should have 1 8 way POV). im still using the g940 stick tough.

What do you search in a combat flight sim?

Simple: Enemy!

Simulation, not just of aircraft systems, but environment.

Accessibility, without compromising with realism. Nice thread BTW!:)

In a combat-flight-sim I primarily search for targets.

And depending on the mission-, damage- and fuel-status, I search a place to land.

Jokes aside:

Immersion and accessability.

Even over realism? Yes.
Example: I'd prefer propwash over grass and a thrilling sound-experience of 6 roaring Vickers over the tickticktick you might hear over the engine noise.

Total immersion from the ground and air. To be part of the war where ever it took place.

With the recent update news, it looks like they are making my dream come alive. Good times ahead. :)

Since there are a lot of different opionions and tastes I would like to do an analysis of every interested guy.

I'm going to post in another thread a point system using our personal interests (0 = no interest, 1 low, 2 medium, 3 high)

I've tried to make a list of some aspects of the combat flight sim in a detailed way, but I ask your help to add something or change it if something is too much generic.

I'll add it to the list and make the changes and then I'll open the thread.

Here's the partial list:
- Accurate flight models (how any plane/engine reacts to the manouvres, wind, pressure changes, air temperature, propwash/jetwash...)

- Accurate planes' hystorical performance (correct plane's speed, climb rating...)

- Detailed pilot's 3D model/animation/customization

- Detailed crew's 3D model/animation

- Detailed planes' 3D models/animations

- Detailed ground vehicles' 3D models/animations (tanks, trucks, trains...)

- Detailed ships/boats 3D models/animations

- Detailed major military 3D models/animations (flaks, ambulances...)

- Detailed minor military 3D models/animations (bycicles, sunbed and table with chessboard/cards/tea cups...)

- Detailed civil 3D models/animations (cows, bus, civil cars...)

- Detailed cities' design (city's layout, buildings, streets, signals...)

- Detailed cities' life (lights are turned on on nights, cars are moving on the streets, drawbridges are animated...)

- Detailed airbases' design (historycal landing strips/fields, detailed taxiways, buildings's detail and position, parking ramps, real flak quantity...)

- Detailed airbases' life (mechanics are actively refuelling/repairing/rearming parked aircrafts, tank cars are moving there and back, ground entities react correctly to difficult landings with ambulances, firemen's truck, bengalas for your planes or the AI ones...)

- Detailed field life (moving cows, sheeps, whales and a T-Rex as easter egg)

- Detailed cockpit's 3D model (every level and switch are in the right place)

- Detailed cockpit's animation (every level and switch appear in their current position, on/off...)

- Clickable cockpit (you act directly on controls by keyboard or using your mouse)

- Cockpit immersion (think about being in the 109's narrow cockpit)

- Number of historycal skin versions (aces' skins, multiple squadrons skins, custom funny skins...)

- Dynamic wearing of the aircraft skin

- Number of flyable fighters

- Number of flyable bombers

- Number of flyable not fighting planes (Me108, Fieseler Storch, modern planes, german wonder machines ect...)

- Interactive vehicles (driving tanks, trucks, ambulance, gas tank...)

- Interactive flaks (FPS capability of the simulator...)

- Number of different version for the same plane (not talking about the main marks, but the different version of these like 109E1, 109E3, 109E7, 109E7Z...)

- Detailed damage models of the inflight planes

- Detailed damage models of the parked planes (not detailed as the for inflight planes, but some planes should explode, other should lose a wings or start smoking...)

- Detailed damage models of the ground vehicles (armor aspects of tanks, engine/wheels damage of trucks, explosion of the gas tanks...)

- Detailed damage models of the ships/boat (like in the IL2's mod, DM of ships are complex and flaks can be hushed...)

- Detailed damage models of the buildings/areas (factories, bridges, cumulative damage on areas as in SEOW... you have to not be able to destroy a factory using a SC50)

- Visual damage rappresention on inflight planes (broken whindshield or oil on it, holes on wings...)

- Visual damage rappresention on parked planes and ground vehicles (smoke, flames...)

- Visual damage rappresention on ships/boat (holes, flames, tilting attitude...)

- Visual damage rappresention on buildings(fire, smoke columns...)

- Visual damage rappresention on terrain (craters...)

- Realistic reaction attitude of plane's crew - airplane AI (quality of pilot, realtime fatigue, stubbornness/cowardice, use of tactics and the chances of success's reckoning...)

- Realistic reaction attitude of the vehicle's crew - vehicle AI (they move searching for cover or run far from the vehicle)

- Realistic reaction attitude of the ground crew - ground AI (flak doesn't fire because crew is scared of your firing at them)

- Detailed aircraft inflight management/maintenance (keeping an eye always on the gauges, turning on the oxigen, operating on seats belt for better visibility/acrobatic manouvre's sustenance, changing the gunsight's bulbs, anti-icer system, windshield wiper, attention to some fragile components like brakes and tires...)

- Detailed aircraft major ground management/maintenance (all based on historical loadouts, fixed by mission planner: ammo belts, weapon loadout, fuel quantity, MW50 quantity/replacing, radio's absence... plus complex engine's startup)

- Detailed aircraft minor ground management/maintenance (all the personal plane's customization: trims' settings, weapons' convergence, seat elevation, rear-view mirror, de-mist patch, lady's picture, different gauges...)

- Planes reliability / dynamic tearing (random optional events: fickle engine, freezing prop pitch mechanism, unreleased bombs/tanks, oil/fuel leaks, defective wings/wheels)

- Accurate weapon's performance/reliability (weapon's failures based on mechanical defects/G-forces sustained/damage taken/freezing/mishandling)

- Accurate communications system (radio management, switching frequencies, control tower, personal mechanic's assistance in case of failure, radio operators with a lady's voice giving infos and direction and a more interactive communication: for example you should be asking for ID of a unidentified contact in the same airspace/ground sector...)

- Communications with your bomber's crew (a of them alert you of the position of the enemy, the condition of the plane or they keep crying is wounded)

- Strongly affecting atmospheric environment (sun, clouds, haze were more important in RL than they are in IL2.. they greatly affect the fight/hunt/bombing run of the pilot bacause of visibility issue)

- Virtual pilot's fatigue/stamina management (because of G-forces, war wearing, stick forces)

- Virtual pilot's physical/mental conditions (blackout fading, nausea, freezing)

- Virtual pilot's realistic scanning/spotting/tracking target capability (partially based on the virtual pilot's average skill/experience/war wearing/flight duration, tipology of the target -> see target visiblity thread)

- Virtual pilot's max number of concurrent actions (limited by the time requested and status: so multiple wound effects, one hand/two hands on cloche toggle)

- Sound engine (of course realistic sound of the engine/weapon models, supercharger, no more that horible engine radar)

- Internal teamspeaking application or TS's mandatory plugin (like ACRE plugin for Arma2: your status/equipment heavily affects the communication capability with your teammates and adds new effects.. if you are on a wrong frequency or simply you are dead/unable to speak your teammates can't listen to your voice)

- Visual atmospheric environment (how good need to be the visual aspect of the sim's sun, clouds, haze, reflections...)

- A convincing and representative landscape.

- General visual effects (smoke, fire, tracers, explosions...)

- Dynamic weather (you know: taking off in a sunny morning ad after 30 minutes it starts raining... moving clouds, heavy wind changes, non only the mandatory wind, turbolence and gusts)

- Extreme weather conditions (rain, storm...)

- Animated nature (trees, grass, flags are influenced by wind/propwasj/jetwash)

- Map size (Are you planning to move from England to Italy? Or you are interested only in a 50x50 km square over the channel?)

- Map fidelty (like the map was taken from google maps)

- SDK e modular support (don't you like it? change it and run it on your server)

- Netcode

- Single player campaign/length/variety

- Dynamic campaign generator (both SP and MP)

- Complex script management in mission generation

- Manuals

- Server Stats

- External cockpit management (input/output of data)

- User Interface

- Heavily customizable configuration (options for everyone like the current IL2)

- Briefing and Debriefing (how the mission is posted to the pilots and reviewed at the end)

- Battle reports (claims kills, their positions and your plane/squad/material contiditions like Clostermann did, having gun cameras to remember that)

- Replay functions (to make video, movies ect)

You forgot 'Hedgerows'.


Just joking. Could I suggest though that you rephrase this one:

"Map fidelty ("Ehi that's my granpa's house there!" and fidelty in buildings/bridges)".

to:

A convincing and representative landscape.

The ground and terrain is important to me, but it only has to be just good enough to be believable and represent a reasonable attempt at the country it is modelling. It doesn't need perfect fidelity in placement of buildings, depiction of architecture, etc. Maybe put that as a second option, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would think it achievable or vote for it.

Suspect that your own personal preferences may have led you to cast the landscape / terrain issue in a slightly jokey offhand manner. Not a criticism - I think this poll is a good idea, but I couldn't vote for the terrain option the way you worded it.

Thanks ;)

Done ;-)

Probably I'll insert it in a web page and save the result in a database.

Dynamic Campaign
 

I still haven't got into Clod because I miss one thing: a dynamic campaign(!)

It should be really easy to integrate this with Battle of Britain 2 Wings of Victory as an early example or the Falcon 4.0 campaign is also great.
I wish a merge between those early simple dynamic campaign models is possible with Clod because I love the graphics of Clod.
Yes, I just love the 1940 planes instead of the later models of the war.

Multiplayer for 128 is more possible in an online campaign with the 2 examples I gave.

Oh yea, you probably heard this before but one more graphical glitch should be restored with historical decalls on or off.
And yes, I know russian developers are not well known for their campaign models...

Good idea.

Immersion.

Given that, there are many things that must be in place to create good immersion, realistic controls and behaviour of aircraft, good feeling flight model, radio traffic and more.

Two IMO very important factors that are often overlooked are briefings and debriefings.
To me a good briefing and debriefings system is very important to build up immersion for the mission at hand, and it should not just be a text to read but graphics too.
You should feel like you're sitting in the briefing room having a map and perhaps photos of the targets and being given important information, this builds up suspense and goes a long way to giving the mission more meaning.
The same with debriefing, it should be much more detailed and "alive" so that you really feel that you've contributed (or not if you failed) to the fighting.

Realistic sims are great, but realism is only half the package to immersion, realism needs to be complemented with things that builds atmosphere or the sim will be all to sterile.
What's the use of all that glorious realism if you don't get any incentive to go out there and fly missions?

Added some of this at the end of the list. Thanks!

Tanks! Driveable Tanks!