Why no E4s
 

Why no E4s on the big servers online?

to compensate for the RAF boys not getting their Spit II. it is easier this way until the fm issues are resolved, then if the performance of all types in the sim reflect their historical performance it will be all systems go and may the best man win! hopefully not too much longer to wait ;)

Craig

But the E4 is same as ALL other 109 variants currently in game.

:confused:

no it's not. It has automatic prop pitch and it can be armed with M-Geschoss.

Richie, at the present point in time it is the most agreeable compromise for most concerned. i personally don't like the E-4 due to the auto prop pitch not getting the best out of the engine, and much prefer the MG armament of the E-1 due to being a very stable and accurate platform. with the present planeset minus MKII, and E-4 there is the best possible match up, and some great combat to be had, although to my mind the Rotol Hurri, and the 1a have their flight models mixed up! with time no doubt all will come out in the wash!

Craig

I love it because I don't have to worry about lugging or blowing up the motor so I can totally concentrate on the target. Otherwise I suck. The one map that has it in Spit VS 109s you blow up when you spawn.

Anyway to get more speed I take it off and on take off I always use manual but in dogfights there's now way you can argue manual is better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaWIF...8&feature=plcp

And these make the FM of the E4 different than the other Emil series? The issue here is flight model over or under modelling. It is known the 2a is overmodelled(or correctly modelled in a game which everything else is undermodelled). So FM is the issue. So cannons and prop pitch change the FM how again?

:confused:

FM of the Spitfire IIa is NOT an issue for those flying on the Red side; never was, in fact. I've been a strong advocate of having the Spit IIa with its 15 measly seconds of widely dispersed popguns and sputtering carb made available, as it rightly should be, on every RAF airfield. By rights, so the E4 should be available on every LW airfield. The Spit IIa has a bit of an FM advantage; in the right hands the E4 is nearly equal in FM and has a huge firepower advantage.

As it turns out, until the patch sorts all these issues out, the Spitfire IIa and the ME 109 E4 have been temporarily removed from Server #1 since neither side can agree. Server #2, however, may be more to your liking.

Don't be misleading. The Spit IIa has the advantage in level speed, climb, and turn.

Don't be misleading yourself. The 109 can bunt into a dive and regain the initiative. Currently the E3 can easily outclimb, outdive, outshoot, and outrun the Hurricane Rotol -- yet you overlooked that, too. The Red pilots don't complain about it; they learn to adapt and fly better as a result.

If all things are equal when two planes meet, there respective performance will favor the superior flight model but thats a fight that shouldnt be picked imho.

Back on topic: The short answer to why certain plane's are not in server1, because to many people fight about it.

No, it cannot. It can bunt into a dive and return to base if and only if the Spit 2 pilot doesn't feel like chasing the 109 down, otherwise the Spit2 pilot only needs patience.

I didn't overlook that, because the Hurri and Spit 1a both have a sustained and instantaneous turn advantage over the 109. I also find it funny you mention climb rate, since the E-3 climbs better than the E-4. Should the E-3 be banned too?

What will you do when the Battle of Moscow expansion comes out and you have to rely on turn performance against the faster, better-armed Fw 190? Substitute the Yaks for Spitfires?

Are you kidding? What servers are you flying where Red pilots aren't whining about cannons nonstop?

Edit: Sorry for dragging this off topic, I just can't stomach hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy? We happen to disagree but there's no call for insults, Captain Doggles.
I was sincere in my arguments and mistakenly thought you were likewise dealing in good faith.

When confronted with an argument that you can't refute, ignore it and make an appeal to emotion.

Standard.

Very true. Are you capable of discussion without resorting to insults?

Hey listen, sorry you took it as an insult.

But I'm not going to retract the statement. I find it hypocritical to understate the advantages that the spit 2a has over the 109s, while in the same breath overstate the advantages that the 109s have over the Spit 1a and Hurri, and to neglect entirely the advantages that the Hurri and Spit 1a have over the 109s.

If you're interested in actually addressing the facts, then great.

Should the E-3 be banned? It climbs better than the E-4.

What will happen when Blue gets the Fw 190 and Red again has a turn advantage but not a speed or firepower advantage?

Come on, it's a bullxxxx. The FM will remain the same even if the pilot is an idiot. Anyone, who ever fly with 1v1 know, that the IIa far better plane than any other in the game.

I fly on ATAG regularly, the greatest disadvantage of the red side the red pilots (and the lack of situation awareness). Who fly on deck to france, because he regretted the time to climb. Who flying alone because no any teamwork. Who only looks forward, and fly straight, Who just chasing one german, instead of climb, and protecting the others, no matter how many red are front of him. Who climbs without any chance to catch the enemy, but it becomes a perfect target, and so on. They are slaughtered within minutes, no matter what weapons are allowed in the Messerschmitt. :rolleyes:

Well Richie, i am guessing that after following how this thread is quickly degenerating you can see why the measures taken by those running servers has been done so ;)

Craig

Some people just don't want to face the facts :-|

I hope Snapper isn't one of them.

Precisely.

Was anyone here flying in Warclouds WF during the 109 G2 Spitfire Mk. IX 25 lb boost debocal? What a hoot that was and I was tearing my hair out all the way threw it. I guess each side thought the others aeroplane was too good. I wanted an F2,F4 or G2 to fly. The servers solution was make it a 1944 server witch almost everyone liked but no Spitfire Mk IX 25 lb boost and no dogfight 109s witch totally screwed me. I got lost and went to Spits VS 109s witch again imo was always the best server for full real play for IL-2 on the Hyperlobby.

Fair enough. We're all grown men here.

As I see it right now with the current FM's, if any model of 109 meets a Spit I/Ia or Hurricane DH5-20/Rotol in a 1 v 1 with both pilots having equal ability; the 109 will win because it can hold the initiative in the fight. It will climb above its quarry, the Red fighter will stall first if it tries to match it. The 109 can b & z at will, the Red fighter can only turn to avoid the firing pass. It can't outrun or outdive the 109, it's only a matter of time when the 109, diving out of the sun, will hit the Red fighter and win the fight. No 109 pilot in his right mind will engage a Red fighter in a turn & burn fight. Why would he? He just climbs out of reach, then picks his moment to descend and dispatch the RAF fighter turning below. The best the RAF fighter can do is dodge the tracers best he can until the 109 runs out of ammo -- which takes a lot longer than it does for a Spit or Hurri to run out.

Obviously, the Spitfire IIa is very capable of seizing the initiative in a 1 v 1, again assuming both pilots are of equal ability. I've recently done some flight test comparisons of the IIa vs the 1a, Rotol, and DH-520 in full throttle climbs to 10,000 feet and also some energy-loss comparos executing Immelman turns in the IIa, Ia, and Rotol. I posted the results over at the ATAG Forum, including video clips of the Immelman tests. Jeffrey Quill I ain't, but as expected the IIa outperformed the other models decisively, especially in the full throttle climbs. We were surprised (Red and Blue) that there was a such a large loss of energy in the IIa doing the Immelman -- on par with the Rotol. The conclusion was that the IIa is good, but its wings aren't coated in teflon. A good 109 pilot can defeat a mediocre IIa pilot, just as a good Ia pilot can defeat a mediocre 109 pilot in a 1 v 1 encounter.

What the Red pilots see in the IIa is "Finally, we have a fighter that can turn the tables". So many times a Red pilot is in a 1 v 1 co-energy encounter, only to have the 109 raise its nose, climb hard away, then hammerhead in the sun and dive back down with guns blazing. When Blue pilots respond by saying "Don't play into the 109's game; disengage, grab altitude yourself, then come back and do it to the 109". To which the Red pilots reply, "No....give us Spitfire IIa's and YOU disengage, grab some alt, and come back at us".

And so it goes.

But as MajorBorris pointed out to Ritchie earlier in this thread, the arguing will never end, it will just get more acrimonius. Taking out the E4 and IIa has seemed to even things up a bit. The Rotol, if flown well, is a good opponent to all models of the 109, the Ia struggles a bit. I'm aware that the auto-pitch on the E4 is over-hyped and that experten 109 pilots probably stick with manual pitch control for top performance. The perception on the Red side, rightly or wrongly, is that the auto-pitch turns even noob Blue pilots into aces overnight. I'm sure they wish that were true! Perhaps a greater concern was that the E4 uber-cannon could knock down a Blenheim before the Blennie had a chance to line up its target.

Sorry for the wall of words here. As with everyone, waiting on the patch to see what that brings us.

Past differences aside, good flying and look foward to seeing you over the Channel.

Snapper

I don't believe this to be true at all. If both pilots are of equal skill, and the Hurri pilot goes for angles while the 109 pilot goes for energy, it ought to be a stalemate every time, ultimately boiling down to who makes a mistake first. As long as the Hurri has speed and the pilot has reasonable tactical knowledge, the pilot can deny a guns-tracking solution to his opponent in the 109.

Let me turn that around on you. Why would sane Hurricane pilots engage a 109 in an energy fight? Note that I am not advocating racing around the sky hauling back on the pole as hard as possible all the time. But angles tactics are perfectly valid if the situation is appropriate. I can elaborate if anyone likes, but I would encourage those who are interested to pick up a copy of Shaw's book Fighter Combat.

Well first of all, from Co-E if a 109 tries to sustained-climb away he's going to get his plane shot out from under him. It's happened to me plenty of times where I've misjudged the energy states, found out the Hurri had more spank than anticipated, and he's got enough to pull the nose up and hit me. Secondly, the 109 doesn't climb that much better than the Hurri. It takes a good long while to build enough vertical separation to split-S down onto him. Thirdly, 109s are not hammerheading around on top of people when they're coming out of a 240 km/h climb. You hammerhead at the top of a zoom climb, not a sustained climb, and trying to out-zoom a 109E in a Hurri would be like trying to out-zoom a P-47 in a Spitfire. I think you and I both know this is not the way to attack a 109 in clod. Nor is trying to chase him upward in a spiral climb, which is what I see time and again online.

Here's where it falls apart. 109 vs Hurri is not the same situation as 109 vs Spit2. The Hurri has a performance advantage over the 109 (turn). The 109 has no performance advantages over the Spit2. If you watch (for example) Mr.X's videos you can see that the negative-G cutout is really no concern at all: he pushes the nose forward all the time to get the shot.

I agree.

I'm sure some do. I myself appreciate the E4 mostly for the decreased pilot workload and am willing to take the performance hit if it means I can spend a little bit more time checking 6 and a little less time fiddling with prop pitch. It's a colossal pain in the butt, even compared to the Rotol because the pitch mechanism is so slow (variable pitch prop vs constant speed prop). I find the Rotol CSP mechanism to be superior, even compared to the E4.

I think that if those pilots were to fly E4s, they'd soon discover that loading armor-piercing bullets into the MG-17 nose guns is vastly superior to Minegeschoss shells when it comes to taking down bombers. This isn't 1946 and we aren't slinging Mk 108 shells around.

I posted about this a few months back on simhq; if I'm shooting well, it takes only 150 or so rounds of MG-17 to wreck an engine on the Blenheim or the Wellington, which makes the AI bail out and probably renders the aircraft ineffective to a human pilot. No need for cannons at all: I save those for fighters.

Likewise. S~

+1 ;)

The fact is, for RED you just need more expierenced flyers to be happy. You need to know exactly what you are doing in a SpitI-Ia or any Hurrican, you simply need "TEAMPLAY". Single faults in flying, is causing the death. The story about ALT, "Spitys should climb" is good, but BLUE knows it already, and they dont wanna climb to 18.000ft for a fight, why would they, they stay on the 10.000ft.....That means, 3-4 turns with a good 109 guy, you gona die, the advantage is high for a 109. If the 109 would make a mistake, to get in the turn fight, he just dives away, outruns you, and finally outclimbs you again, if you wanna follow him.....good night lol......But true is, the early 109 vs Spit fights over France are been very bad for the RAF, they did what the wanted with them...

Without SpitII, the 109 is the best plane, and it is no wonder for me, that alot BLUE guys, wanna keep it that way. But the question for me is, is this what you want, I mean after many hours flying online, you reach a level of skill, the current Spitfires I-Ia are not a match in the right conditions (and you tell what condition you want as BLUE flyer).

But on the other hand, you get angry, RED flyers with SpitII`s if aviable on the server, who got good skill, learned the game online on the hard way with the poor SpitI-Ia....:evil:

The nightmare comes alive for BLUE.....;)

So in this case, a endless topic, as said above. But we need to find the right way, that means, fixed FM`s by Luthier, because, one day, my FW 190 will arrive, and I wanna fly it too, if you know what I mean.....lol

BTW, Snapper, I like youre tests with the Spity`s what you have posted on the ATAG forum... ;)

.

+1 to the point

[talk is silver, silence is gold]



~S~

If that's the case then why complain?

Because I like the simplicity of the auto prop and the m-geshoss. Has no impact on aircraft FM. Simply put.

The spit2a is pulled because of ahistorical FM matchup due to 1C fudging this game up. So it gets pulled. Fine and please bring it back as soon as 1C get's the FM stuff right. The E4 get's pulled because......the spit2a got pulled?

How does that make sense. The E4 flies within the same FM envelope as all other 109 FM. So if the e4 get's pulled because the spit2a get's pulled but this is all about FM comparion then where is the correlation? Thus the spit2a vs 109e4 argument is moot as the debate then becomes apple vs orange instead of apple vs apple.

Exactly that's why. Why should you pick out the E-4 with the SpitIIa together? FM and Handling? The FM same as other 109, the handling same simple as the RAF planes. The real reason is the armament, but it's so pathetic, that have to lie something different.

No, you said it's the same as all of the others, so I suggested you fly something else if that is the case. The point is that your logic was flawed, because the E4 actually has an advantage that you want otherwise you'd fly something else.

Just get on with it.

As for Doggles, well you've got it all worked out in your own head haven't you......

I know why, just picking holes in his argument.

Soon these guys are going to get hammered by upgraded Spitfires and get found out that they aren't the ace's they thought they were. My advice is "disengage, choose the right fight, don't play his game, be the condescending ace that I am, blah blah yadda yadda"

The only one condescending here is you osprey. Picking portions of an argument to quote and argue, then ignoring the rest in it's entirety is putting a false light and unfair spin to a discussion.

I bring to the table a valid argument that the spit2a is pulled due to FM disparity. The 109e4 is pulled for no reason other then the spit2a has been pulled.

Anyone can pick holes in an argument when they only argue portions of the argument and not the whole.

I argue the the 109e4 is the same FM envelope as other 109 models. That is my argument. Prop pitch control and m-geshoss have nothing to do with the aircrafts flight performance abosolutes. Matter of fact it has been stated that auto prop pitch tends to lessen the aircrafts flight envelope in trade for simplification. So once again you argue for the sake of argue and do not address the core issue at hand.

I am a 110 driver so this is largely moot to me. I only state my lack of understanding for lumping the two aircraft together if only one is the offending aircraft.

If it is moot then why are you discussing it? That is the second oxymoron of the day for you. It is not condescending to point out flaws in your reasoning. I'm not arguing for either case, ultimately it's a decision of the server providers and if you don't like it then fly elsewhere.

Why are you posting in this thread, then?

It's funny that the blue team's rides are what the red team's rides used to be in late war IL2 1946 matchups: Spit Ias or Hurris against 109s in CoD is like Fw190s against P51s in '46 :-P

I find it unreasonable to pull aircraft out of the set because another one got pulled (ie, straight up for balance reasons) but i also find it reasonable. No, i'm not crazy, it depends on the circumstances, let me explain.

The FMs are under revision. Since we can't have and use the accurate FMs yet, we need to keep the sim enjoyable for the most amount of people. That means we temporarily choose balance/playability over accuracy, at least until the FMs get corrected. I guess this is why most servers don't allow Spit II's and E4s and i'm fine by it, because there are also other considerations in the mix.

I mean, think of the bomber guys too. How is any team going to win a map if the bombers don't have a chance? Currently they can't fly in groups or with escort, due to the memory leak bug giving people CTDs. So, how are the Blenheims supposed to reach the target alone against m-shell armed E4s, or how are the heinkels and stukas supposed to do the same alone against fast climbing Spit IIs?

I think what the server admins are doing is correct: since the FMs are skewed let's skew the planeset too, to have a scenario where at least the broader, relative balance of power is close to the historical one.

After all, that's what matters most in the mission oriented servers. Absolute performance stats are all that's needed in terms of 1vs1 engagements, but a server is more than that, it's an entire tactical engagement and the thought process is different: each team has to be able to attack and defend in a manner reasonably similar to how it happened back in the 40s.

When the FMs are corrected then let's go all out and allow everything.

I mean, if what we read in the history books is true, it would be both challenging and balanced in a way and it would end up depending mostly on player tactics: the spit Mk.Ia will be faster than it currently is, but if all the FMs are fixed the RAF will still have the better turning aircraft and the LW will still have the faster aircraft, because the in-game 109 is also going to get beefed up (it's slower than the real one).

Heck, the 110 is probably going to be the fastest one of all and get its missing m-shells too, not to mention that about half of the fleet during BoB had the uprated engines making it even faster.

As you can see, allowing everything with corrected FMs will be very similar to what we have now: the LW will still be faster and harder-hitting, the RAF will still turn better. I think that's what the server admins tried to do and they succeeded, to get the broader picture correct until the FMs are adjusted to historical values.

The sad think is, i often need many attempts to bring down a red fighter.
When i had a spit or hurri in target i had only a piece of second to shot and hit and then i hit only with two MGs.
When a spit is behind me i need two or 3 seconds to come out of its sight
cause due to the better turn rate they can hold me longer in sight and in this time i am very damaged due to the 2 second burst from 8 MGs.
The point is, when a hurri or a spit is able to shoot at me two times ,its over.
Dont forget the firepower of 8 MGs or the wider spreading!
I Rarely win a dogfight against good pilots since the E4 is restricted due to the lack of needed firepower. I damaged the plane but always not enough when the pilot is good and fly smart with saving energy is always able to turn the tide.
The reds have learned to fly their fighters very very well in the last months. Out climb tactics what worked some months ago didnt work so well now.
You need wider turns ( i dont mean turning) as before or a higher distance to the enemy to build the energy advantage and then i often loose the enemy due to the not good visibility of targets.


The argument with the advantage with the automatic prop pitch i dont se cause i turn it off and fly manually *on ear* for better performance.
When you fly on automatic you cant outrun or outclimb or outdive a good opponent.

Everyone assumes the minegeschoss just shreds bombers left and right. Honestly, it's trivially easy to down a Blenheim using only the MG-17s in the nose.

+1

I use cannons when MGs are empty

That's why we like the E-1 :)

I'm not saying it's not possible, i prefer to fly the E-1 too because of the longer firing times.

I'm just saying that MGs need tracking shots which give the bomber somewhat of a fighting chance. Cannons with m-shells on the other hand are deadly in high angle, high deflection snapshots which take the bombers completely by surprise.

Using the QMB in the old IL2 1946 i could down four B-17s with ace AI gunners without using any Mk108s, just 20mm guns, in full difficulty settings. In CoD with the more "human" AI gunners that miss, it's trivially easy to swoop down on a bomber from its high 3 and knock a wing off if you have m-shells. I've done it a lot of times not only against Blennies, but also bigger and harder targets like Wellingtons and Sunderlands that have wider firing arcs and more defensive guns.

If you also have a wingman (AI or human) to make a feigned pass and draw the attention of the turrets to the opposite direction before you dive on it and give it a short burst, it becomes a cakewalk because our new more realistic turrets have limited arc travel rates.

Of course, the E-4 can't be withheld forever. But when it comes post-patch, the Blens will have escort that doesn't CTD when it looks in their direction and the E-4 itself will be faster to deal with those escorts, according to its proper specs.

Then, blue bomber busting will probably fall to the 110 which will also be faster and harder hitting, perfect choice as long as it doesn't stick around to dogfight with fighters.

The Blenheim was in fact an easy target to shot down. It was not a robust B-17. It dooes not need heavy fighters to get downed such as a 110.

ALtought personaly I think it's more fun when bombers are hard to shot down, it's a nonsense historically speaking with that type.

But I agree that the E4 guns are way overmodeled and need a correction (still I hve no prob with the speed contrary to many).

But please note that Bleheim in game have a superior cruise speed than the Ju88 hve. This does not seems to be accurate. I am always amazed at the pour souls nearly sailing their Ju88 past the English coast so slowly that even a Lyslander could intercept them !

@Martin77 : there is much more hacked FM flying now on the red side. Don't think that you need to change your tactics because red have improved theirs owns, think more in term of wich fight you hve to commit yourself and when you hve to run/extend/disco (?). And yes it's much like old Il2 4.10 and their stupid 51s .They just used the same risible trickeries.

Overmodelled? What basis do you say that? Or just feel it?

Hi Tom,

see here pls : http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=28256

Hi. Ok, i remember now, i read that topic. I dont think, that any weapon overmodelled in the game, i think the .303 undermodelled, but it's another topic.

Frankly I never heard any ace having shot 3 German bombers in a raw. I rather inclined to think otherwise when I see those pictures of crash landed bombers filled with thousands of bullets holes.

I read once, that one US pilot shot down 5 Ju52 in a row (ok, it's not a bomber, but big-birds :) ). The yankee catch them during landing, and shot them all.
I don't find now, who was the pilot...

Our 2nd server has E4's and SpitIIa's (both limited) but they are there.

12.7mm is not 7.7mm : twice the diameter-> 4 times the kin effect and 4 times more volume for explosives ;)

During the north african campaign, Ju52 crossing the med were slaughtered en Masse

Yep, you're right.
(below 20mm, all is "small caliber" for me :grin: )

You can see the difference in the sizes at 4:50 in the armament.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWoj...4&feature=plcp

Did you all hear the inaccuracy the commentary makes due to his generalization?

JD
AKA_MattE

Check on my channel if you guys like I've got the whole 1 hour long documentary.

yep. Nice big. :grin: But what should I look on it?

Great, thx!

That's a horrible thing to say Tomcat. A baseless accusation. I have seen you complain and accuse reds of cheating just because you got shot down.

The P-51 in 1946 absolutely had to be flown correctly to achieve anything and above 7km too. 90% of the time the enemy got clean away because they dived before the 50cals could put any significant damage into them and I often found most of my kills were escaped 190's who went to get a new aircraft. Out of the LW types only the Antons were easy to deal with but then they would still get away, but they normally operated 3-4km lower anyway so you didn't often see them @8km. 109G's and especially K4's were very tough, and Doras particularly effective. But there where the same lot of complaints until servers removed the APIT rounds, and the modded FM's came in to swing the tables to the LW.

What are you talking abt Osp ? I'm flying red half of the time ! lol

That may be so but the points still apply.

I've seen no sign of hacked flying on either side on the ATAG Server, but I have seen some fine flying done by both (much to my chagrin at times).

Obviously you never saw that video posted on warclouds forums a few years back where a P-51 pilot explained the reason most people found the 51 to be "porked" was in fact because they can't aim at all.

The video showed him using short, controlled bursts at medium convergence to snap wings off, start engine fires, etc.

This is all before mods.

Yes, on AI IL2's from high 6 with their big wide wings which weren't evading. That 'short' burst is 2-3 seconds in the same spot - try that on a human opponent. I urge you to try it yourself though before you accuse others of being poor shots Doggles.

Hmm, nope, it was footage from warclouds. Nice try at turning it around on me though; I'm an average shot at best.

Didn't try anything mate. You said I missed. I generally hit about 8-10% consistently I seem to remember - what's wrong with that?

Did you ever fly them yourself?

*shrug* If you find that the P-51 from 1946 is bad or that you lose a lot of kills because of the weak 0.50s then you must be doing it wrong, because I've seen videos of guys online who do it right: 1-pass kills before the modders got their dirty little hands on the game.

Don't bother replying with something that you think is witty; it's obvious to me from your posts in this thread that you aren't interested in anything other than validating your already-held notions. So don't bother replying- I won't read it.

Yep.

How did you develop that defence mechanism? What an unfortunate character trait, I feel sorry for you mate.