66!
 

Just a nice extract of a video showing two of the most appreciated planes in UK.

Interesting too if you look closely.

Enjoy ! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agzFJ...eature=related

Unfortunately I don't appreciate the Eurofighter, being an English taxpayer !!

Biggest waste of tax payers money a complete flop. IMHO :)

+1 :rolleyes:

...are you serious? :shock:

You're not one of the "EE Lightning Nostalgia Group" by any chance, are you? ;)

I frankly find quite outstanding the fact that the Eurofighter can turn inside a Spit at the same speed!

well, in some years they can waste their money in the Lightning II ;) .
Or hows about the QE carriers :D

Given that Messerschmitt is hiding somewhere within EADS (that's also why you see so many EADS sponsored Messerschmitts) I consider this Vid kinda ironic. If I were the pilot of the EF I'd be hard pressed not to pull the trigger. Completly understand KG26_Alpha's attitude here :D

one of my best mates is an ITAF pilot an is completing his syllabus on the EF: he said (and I quote) "it's an outstanding machine, you go from 200kts to 450 in roughly 5 secs and can turn around a pole! The flaws are distinctively British though!".

There seems to be a somehow unorthodox approach in British aircraft design: another good friend of mine is a Canadian Air Force pilot and flew with the Hawk when e still was a cadet and I remember him saying "the first impression when you sit inside the Hawk is that someone puked the instruments all over the cockpit" lol

hehe, some traditions die hard

The EF would have been an awesome plane - if it was out in the 90s...
Let's sum it up:

- it's over 10 years late
- has no stealth capabilities
- way too expensive
- it's 2011, yet there's still no thrust vectoring

This plane is friggin joke. On the other hand, it's the perfect weapon to scare the crap out of some 3rd world countries...
Too bad the "Allied" didn't lose any over Libya.:(

Rumor has it it came out as the favorite of the swiss airforce, they evaluated the EF, Rafale and Grippen.
Should that prove to be true, for the time in my life I'll join the lefties and vote it down.

No matter what role it dresses up in, EADS, SEADS, CASCOM, IRST or DASS its still a flop as a multi role ac compared to its contemporaries.

It was purely an exercise in how much tax payers money can be wasted on an obsolete ac design.

Too many fingers were allowed into this pie, it took too long to develop and went way over its budget, result out of date over priced ac.

Turning with a Spit proves what ?

It can turn with a Spit in a high Speed turn ...yippee :rolleyes:

You wont see this ac in such combat manoeuvres.

Of course IMHO

:)

Edit:
Woops just seen swiss's post same thoughts as mine.

So? What do you want, a new multi-role jet every 5 years? It was designed with longevity in mind. The F-18 is 25 years old, yet you don't hear a lot of people complaining about it (and let's not even look at the F-15 or F-16..).

has less stealth capabilities than an F-22 maybe, but it has a good stealth level.
is it? Compared to what exactly? Last time I checked an F-22 price tag it didn't come cheaper than an EF.
Yeah, too bad that thrust vectoring doesn't really serve much of a purpose, other than doing fancy manouvres at an airshow..

your conclusion is somehow despicable. And for the record, the US lost several "stealth" jets, most notably an F-117 over Serbia..

for once Switzerland could be good and give back some of the money they robbed over the last 100 years, so let's hope they buy them yes.

I'm sorry man, but you can appreciate that without any evidence of what you say, your sentence can hardly be taken seriously.
same as above.
I agree about the fingers and the development time, but it's a jet with a HUGE longevity ahead of it. Let's not forget that we still fly our Tornadoes and there are jets that are more than 30 years old on the lines.
that you don't need thrust vectoring to show off at an airshow :rolleyes:

yeah, one kinda wonders what you guys think would be better than an EF, an F-35 maybe? The most expensive piece of military equipment ever developed and not even finished yet? mmmmmh

well, to be fair the eurifighter typhon is probably th eonly jet fighter i find good looking.

regarding its effectivness, really dont know, really dont care.

F-15 is still the best modern fighter IMHO.

The Eurofighter is not that bad an aircraft its just too late for the show...

stern - good posts.

Yes I agree it looks good

I care about its effectiveness, my taxes paid for it.



Lol

Poor effort at the best from him.

Conclusions

What conclusions can we draw about the Typhoon? The notion that the aircraft is “almost as good as an F-22” is not supportable, indeed upgrading the F-15 with engines and a radar/IRS&T/AAM package of the same generation as that of the Typhoon would equalise almost all advantages held by the Typhoon over older F-15C/E variants. By the same token, no upgrades performed on the F/A-18A/C would equalise the performance advantages of the Typhoon over these aircraft.

The strength of the Typhoon is its very modern and comprehensive avionic package, especially that in the RAF variant, and its excellent agility when operated around its optimum combat radius of about 300 NMI (a figure to be found in older Eurofighter literature, which has since disappeared with the export drive to compete against the bigger F-15 and F-22).

The Typhoon's weaknesses are its F/A-18C class weight and thrust and the implications of this in combat at extended operational radii, and the longer term sensitivity of its BVR weapons advantage to equivalent technological developments in opposing fighters.

In terms of where to position the Typhoon in the current menagerie of fighter aircraft, it can be best described as an F/A-18C sized fighter with BVR systems and agility performance better than older F-15 models, similar to growth F-15 models with same generation systems and engines, but inferior to the F-15 in useful operating radius. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, despite various assertions to this effect, nor is it a genuine supercruiser like the F-22. Its design incorporates none of the features seen in very low observable types, nor does the EJ200 incorporate the unique design features of the F119 and F120 powerplants.

The Typhoon is certainly not a lemon, although the wisdom of mass producing a high performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a period where stealth is about to hit mass production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be seriously questioned. It represents what is likely to be the last major evolutionary step in the teen series design philosophy.


Have a read here see what you think, a non USA UK opinion

http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Typhoon.html

IMHO its a waste of taxpayers money, out dated and hugely over budget.

Still its useful for this sort of stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NZ9X9A2efA

Are you serious?

I do like Spitfires (fav WWII airplane along with the P51 on the allied side) and more or less indifferent to the Eurofighter, my favorite machines are the Su27 (something special about this bird ;)) and the F16 on the western side.

Regards.

I'm sorry, but that article has absolutely no value whatsoever. It doesn't make sense to compare the F-22 to the Eurofighter, they come from two drastically different mindsets and specifications.

But let's think about it in a term of "air dominance fighter": would you have a jet like the Eurofighter, produced in Europe, giving work to hundreds of thousands of people here, being exported and offering a more than valid match to any modern fighter jet out there, OR would you have a costly US fighter, which has a higher cost per unit, comes with crazy loan schemes and costly maintenance, favouring the American economy and industry?

I would understand an Australian pondering which one they would rather buy, but a member of the Eurofighter consortium should be well proud of what we achieved here (especially if you consider that its conceptual father, the EAP, was an all English project).

Besides you need to consider operational costs and tactical use of the plane, how many Su35 are you expecting to find out there? Truth is that we produce the best quality for value aeroplane, and breaking into the market with such a product, taking customers away from the US, is a big result.

With the money the UK has to spend over the next few years of recession, a couple of Cessnas with 20lb Cooper bombs would have been more appropriate...
;)

Lol :rolleyes:





Bingo :)

Its already on display in a Museum.............. taken May 2010

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...1/DSCF2363.jpg

Still a good aircraft, it was like all European projects plagued with lack of resources and government interference.

So basically give it the money that a US project would receive and remove the work sharing squabbles from the EU and it would have been out earlier... its not a bad aircraft but just too late :(.

Did anybody really think that the EU would be able to produce a better aircraft than US and Russia... Only if they were given the same amount of money and free reign the other countries give there contracts.

BTW PAK FA FTW :)

Alpha, you can lol as much as you like dude, but it's quite obvious you don't understand much about military aviation and its modern applications.

I mean, what's the post about the EF in Duxford supposed to mean? The EF in Duxford has reached its structural hours, so it's been put in the museum, if anything it's a testify of how much work it's been done on the airframe.

..uh and for the record, there's an F-22 on display in Dayton since 2008 ;)

Guys we need to open a EF2000 thread.

Guess tht wld be only one more on the web.

WHat is true is that no generation of planes had ever been so contreversial. Even the Starfighter scandal was peanuts in regards.

Yeah EF2000 is an old concept that had come long. Just hve a look to who was responsible of the initial design in the Uk :rolleyes:

Probably that it won't stand on top in front of Pak/FA or a J20 if those ever achieve their high expectation (I am confident for the Pak/FA especially if India select either the RaF or the Ef ;) )

Certainly it won't hve much chance against a F22 and will hve to fight hard to prevail against an F35 if those two achieve a reliability high enough to remain credible (I guess that when Ef would hve been sold in numbers this would help the situation ;) ).

But let us remind WWII when many super fighters were rolled proudly in front of the hanger of their respective manufacturer... Who did bear the brunt of the Adler Tag and Pear harbor attack ? Hurricane, MS406, Wildcats and P36. They were there in large numbers, practicable and average performers for a bunch of forgotten men that stand firm at their commands.

Wht matter the most in those troubled days is that our airspace are protected.

Is the price too high and the tempo to slow ? Yes ! That's undeniable. Is that a problem related to the industrial sector ? No.

End of arguments.

You can either point Fukujima, the car manufacturer selling millions of outdated engines, the food industry and so on. But this is not a place for a technical, aviation oriented forum. It's a matter of us.

Nice pic Krupi

Agreed Tomcat

Sorry the thread went off at a tangent.

Thxz LOL

:confused::confused::confused:

one can wonder if such super 'fighters' are still needed in the conflicts nowadays.
These high manouverable superpower monsters are mostly flying straight and releasing smart weapons.......

A much cheaper plane, even with a turboprop (like the Pilatus or Tucano planes), could be equipted with such a weapon avionic.

This super dogfight ability.....well, cost a lot. If it will ever bee needed, questionable. So every penny put in such hardware might be a waste of money !
But sure, its easier to make a Groundattacker out of a Fighter than otherwise round :D

The German Luftwaffe wants now all (~140) of its Eurofighters equipted as dual role. in a few years it will be its only combat jet aircraft.

And the future might most propably be even more than today in UAVs. Imagine a modern combatflightsim in 100 years :(


and btw, im wondering who will make it in India, the Rafale or the Typhoon !
Not that India could do something better with that money............

[QUOTE=TomcatViP;363748]Guys we need to open a EF2000 thread.

Guess tht wld be only one more on the web.

WHat is true is that no generation of planes had ever been so contreversial. Even the Starfighter scandal was peanuts in regards.

Yeah EF2000 is an old concept that had come long. Just hve a look to who was responsible of the initial design in the Uk :rolleyes:

Probably that it won't stand on top in front of Pak/FA or a J20 if those ever achieve their high expectation (I am confident for the Pak/FA especially if India select either the RaF or the Ef ;) )
[quote]
will they? You can appreciate that apart for these "independent projects" of dubious quality, the market is either US or Russia really, there's political and economic ties that keep things as they are. That's why the Eurofighter was a big middle finger to the US, one not really too welcome either.

You reckon? I think the Eurofighter is the only non Russian operative jet that stands a chance with the F-22, they're both armed with BVR missiles, and AA technologies are so advanced now that the whole stealth technology is getting obsolete. Besides, as you said, the F-22 and F-35 have still SO many problems (the latter in particular), and they're never cheap to fix ones..
it's also a matter of tactical warfare: funnily enough the F-22 is more of an anachronism than the Eurofighter. The development of technologies and the ever so present use of drones for ground attacks will more and more relegate piloted jets to aerial superiority, which will become less and less necessary.

I completely agree. UAVs are making most of the dirty jobs at a fraction of the cost of a manned ground attacker, it wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years' time we won't have piloted vehicles, but it'll be all done from a computer room..

India iirc are getting the Russian t-50

later perhaps, in some years...... replacement for their Su-30.
but now there is a competition for a "medium" Multirole Fighter, and the last ones are the Typhoon and the Rafale for that.

We have F18. It's save to assume they are the best maintained F18 on the planet.
Yet, we still have only 50% availability.


For the this price and 2011?


The F22 is not available for Export, the way it looks right now they end production next year.
Given the fact they don't sell it, there's no need to discuss it.


But outturnig a spit is an achievement?
I guess future Typhoon upgrades include the ability to outrun Mig 21s. :D


I only know of the F117 lost in combat.
Then again, it was shot down by an elite AAA unit.
It actually only proves the existence of the golden shot, nothing more, nothing less.



Actually I hope we buy the Grippen.
You get 2 of them for each eurofighter, double availability.
They are cheap to operate and idiotproof
Not EU
Not USA

In case we have to wait a few years maybe we should evaluate the Pak-Fa too, although they could be a bit oversized for this tiny country.

BTT:
What money? Stole from whom? Since 1911?

Fleet availability is something that has little to do with how dependable an aircraft is. It might be down to maintenance routines, costs or other operational issues. Considering the know-how and experience of pilots and ground crews, I'd rather switch to the Super Hornet than change fleet completely.


And that's my point. The Eurofighter is the best multi-role jet money can buy at the moment. The F-22 wasn't sold cos THAT is a flop, and other than the technical snags, it's mainly cos the fleet maintenance costs the American taxpayers A LOT.

no, I didn't mean it in that way, I just find the manouverability of modern jets is outstanding, I'm sure an F-22 or a Su-27 could do as good.

no, they used extremely long wavelengths and spotted the F-117 when it opened the bomb bays. The plane was damaged by a proximity fuzed missile. This proves once again that when the American boast about new technologies, they do it too much and kill the surprise factor. AA units in Serbia were well aware of the existence of the stealth bomber, and used their skill and initiative shooting down a plane that had never been hit before.
Uh and for the record, the F-117 was retired in 2008 (in a somehow "stealth" fashion), to save one billion dollars for the F-22 program.. americans had been going in the wrong direction for quite some time now..

yeah good luck with that, I'm sure the SAF is thrilled to get their Saabs.. :rolleyes:
Yeah, another Russian gem :rolleyes: considering the size of Swiss airspace you really need something that is manouverable ;)
it was only a joke, I'm sure you're aware of the general impression the world has of Switzerland ;)

JG52Krupi said : India iirc are getting the Russian t-50

Humm I guess that you are one of those proud Russian or I might be wrong ;)

Yeah it's (again) a fantastic and ingenious Sukhoi design. Proud Russians can be.

My point in naming it by its Indian/Russian (oh sry) ... Russian/Indian) project' name instead was to attract readers on the prob funny tech transfers.

Lmao what an earth are you on about I am British for a start! :!: :confused:

what, i agree with him, oddly enough.

i do however, disagree with

Ah okay well typhoon should win hands down

Hmm, what I miss in this threat is the Chengdu J-10B to compare it with, let me say, half modern planes...:rolleyes:

What also is an important factor is the cost over the lifetime of your A/C.
For an example: if you buy a normal passenger jet (A320 or B737, doesn't matter which one) you pay 7-times the same amount for maintenance the next 30 years.

So for the military etat it's good to have one fighter with superp multirole ability with long life cells,cheap/fast production, low maintenance costs and good upgrade abilities.

The low/complicated production rate, the high maintenance costs/repairs and the low adaptivity to other roles killed the F-22.

The F-35 is set as a multirole A/C, but has also a low and complicated production rate. If you think the EU had to much fingers, the US is not an exception to that. For the reduction of mainenance cost it has only one engine, but that doesn't save your pilots (see starfighter in germany).

The Eurofighter ( also called Jäger-90 ) was initially designed as an interceptor plane. With the change of the cold war, also the role of it changed over the time.
From interceptor to multirole. Maintenance costs, long life cells also played it's part in the older getting Air fleets in europe. That all rised the price, through political nonsense.

Russia builds the best aerodynamical A/C without assisting computers in the world, there's no doubt about it. Also they have a building set system to adapt new parts for new variants. But the maintenance costs and the fuel costs are a pain in the A...

If someone has some good info about the Rafale, J-10 or others, please share them.

Well sry but tell me you are a British that add lemon slide in it's tea pot to explain me why my cristal ball had failed ?:rolleyes:

you can start there : http://rafale.freeforums.org/

I agree with stern on this.

The F22 is the biggest joke ever. Anyone should see this. Stealth's only good if it works. And it doesn't.

On top of everything the future of modern military aviation is drones. Why would anyone sane in their heads invest into a multibillion ruin of something?

The EF is one of the few last generation jet's that are actually affordable and usable. Beyond that GET DRONES.

Aside from a few russian variants the EF is the only feasable jet fighter out there to buy. And the chinese and americans (f22, f35) don't export anyways. So why the weird debate?

EF, RU or drones. Simple as that.

Cheers.

Yep, the annoying thing is that the Americans learned their lesson with the F-22 and didn't do the same mistake with the F-35: they got more countries involved and have been raising costs more and more. There already have been several scandals related to the JSF development,but as things are now the show must go on,even if the F-35's development has broken any development costs record and it's not even finished yet,they need to complete a machine that eventually will be too costly to operate for most countries involved in the project,and that will never generate any kind of profit because of its insane development costs..

The chinese sell 36 of their Chengdu J-10A to Pakistan, with the delivery 2012 or 2014-15 (depending on source).

Also they plan to aggressively market most likely J-10B, when development is complete.

But it looks like after 18 years of development, that their are still some bugs regarding the engine installation and their Copy-engine of the AL-31FN.

True. But only Pakistan was offered the J10s. As far as I know that's the only sale the Chinese authorized.

Aside from it's bugs and issues, understandable for the new development, the J10A is definately no match for the EF though. It's thrust to weight ratio alone is that bad that it can't even go vertical, heck, you're lucky if it climbs at all, with it's normal configuration and a ttwr of only 0,68. Just to compare: the EF has a ttwr of 1,18, thus can go vertical and climb fast...

Add to that the performance of the amazing DASS system the Typhoon has; ECM, ESM, MAW sytems, integration with the helmet mounted display unit etc. and you don't want to sit in a J10A even if it looks like a clone of the EF.

The J10B will be interesting to see, after all it's a raptor clone. But then again - I don't believe that it's the weapon of the future and also I don't yet believe that the chinese are that advanced when it comes to the subsystems. Anyone can build a good looking plane but that doesn't say much about it's real efficiency. I'm not saying this to discredit the chinese, on the opposite, I'm rather scared of their drone mass production capabilities, but I don't see it as a logical choice.

I still believe the EF Typhoon is the last jet with a reasonable configuration to buy or maintain, aside from some russian variants and maybe the rafale b. Considering how far advanced drone technology, autonomous and remote controlled, already is I'd not buy any other modern plane aside from transport and tactical/surveilance. The F35 also has a number of issues, like low ttwr, low speed, low weapon load, low fuel capacity, low g limits - I'd seriously consider almost any drone superior in terms of performance - the rest is just dependant on subsystem performance.

Drones?
I'm sure you heard about the virus which infected the US drone fleet.
So, unless you're fighting a 3rd world country this shouldn't be the weapon of choice. Way to risky if those things get hacked.

That's not the only problem with drones either. From what I've heard from other sources, they are fine for surveillance and surgical strikes, but for air to air combat they are essentially useless due to the computing power and technology not being there to have 'self-aware' air-to-air combat dones flown by computers. I always find myself wondering how effective these would be anyway. As soon as the enemy figure out the algoythms used for manouvers etc. they can easily develop algorythms to counter them. It'd be like having an airforce where the pilots always pull the same manouver and you can predict, with some margin for error, exactly what that manouver will be, making them not very effective in a dogfight.

As far as piloted UCAV's are concerned the delay in the satelite connection between pilots of UCAV's and the feed from their aircraft, although it's small, is too big to fly them in air-to-air combat where decisions must be made in split-seconds and in real time.

Drones could certainly be a part of future warfare, for example they are perfect for level bombing missions, maybe even being able to move at speeds that manned aircraft can't because of human limitations, making them even more difficult to intercept. I think though that air-to-air combat, for the foreseeable future at least, is either up to manned aircraft or UCAV's flown by manned aircraft in the direct vicinity (for example, flown by the weapons officer of a Super Hornet or the like) to remove the issues with satelite delay.