"The Gruesome Twosome Tournament" - 2vs2 SIM ONLY (PS3 & XBOX)
 

Updates!!!!

Reporting Results

PS3 - Please remember (both Flight Leaders of a match, only)
* attach screenshot of results and add the following info:
1. Home Team vs Visitor Team (names)
2. Planes used for all players
(read the rules for more info about the selection of planes)


Xbox - Report by sending the following info to Robotic Pope
A. take a photo of the match results and add:
1. Home Team vs Visitor Team (names)
2. Planes used for all players

or

B. Write down and send the following info:
1. Home Team vs Visitor Team (names), include their deaths, and "scored" kills.
2. Planes used for all players
3. Map Used
4. Final Ticket Score, example: 286 - 290


Regarding the Rules: changes

* XBOX - HUD rule is optional
* PS3 - no changes

Disengagement rule is now optional because it may not always be the most convenient option for the wingmanless pilot, for example if you are on your enemy's six and he is after your wingman and he gets to shoot down your wingman but you now have a clear shot to avenge your partner, the disengagement rule will not allow this and it may create frustration and conflict, that is what I believe. So if we make this optional then the player will have to decide if continues the chase to avenge or disengages and regroups before his target's wingman comes to assist. The signal for wanting to disengage after your wingman is down will be to lower your landing gear and wiggle your wings, if attacked while in this situation please report
(As soon as your wingman is shot down you either continue fighting or immediately lower your landing gear, wiggle your wings, and fly towards your Base to regroup with your partner. Obviously, you cant use this to escape every time you feel threatened. Its just for that, and every, immediate moment after you loose your partner.

So: If you decide to avenge your downed wingman and go against 2 enemy planes and you are able to shoot down one of theirs, then, the wingman of your downed victim is now able to decide if he wants to continue fighting 1v1 or disengage and regroup instead, (By this time, though, one of the previously downed planes will probably be near the dogfight zone and able to assist). You decide.)
* Tournament will now be Group Stage + Eliminatory Stage
+ Win= 3 points, Draw= 1 point, Loss = 0 points.
+ There will be 2 Groups of 3 Teams, the first place of each group will fight for the "Gruesome Twosome" title in the Final
+ Stats will be added: Group Position will depend on the following order: Points, Kills, least amount of Deaths. (remember that your team's kills will be the total amount of deaths of your enemies only, not the computer scored kills)

==================


Hi everyone,

Its me again, I recently got a message from MAC to see about creating a new Tournament before the release of Birds of Steel and help some us ease the torture of waiting for 2012 sequel.

This new tournament will be the first we create as a 2vs2 competition, It would be a little gathering in honor of the game that has given us many hours of fun and has brought us together as the great community that we now are.


Concept

* 2vs2 Eliminatory Tournament
* 8 teams max (16 players) "needs discussion"
* Rules will be similar to those of Ace of Aces Tournaments, small changes will take place in order to adapt a 2vs2 system
* This will be a fast tournament "FLASH" it is intended to last only 3 weeks, with a total of 13 games. (It will start in the Quarter Finals)
- each team will play their opponents twice (2 games per week for each team, one in home map, the other in away map)
- Final will take place in random map and will be a single but longer match
* Planes allowed: I-16 type 24 vs Yaks (please vote)
* 20 minute matches (Final will be 30 minutes)
* All maps are allowed
* Loadout - limited fuel/ammo
* P-51 Club Rules (light): NO HUD, Cockpit View only (thats how much we trust each other :) )
* and ofcourse like all of our past tournaments this will be a SIM only Tournament :)
- Again, this is just for the pure fun of it, the only prize will be the recognition from your us virtual pilots.


'The Gruesome Twosome' - 2 vs 2 Tournament, RULES IN ENGLISH - (Version 1.0)
(Updated by MAC)


RULES : (Violating these will result in defeat)

* Prior to tournament start all players have to form teams of two and chose a name for their team
* Each team has to nominate a wing leader and a wing man; the wing leader will be responsible for communication with the tournament's organizers and other teams
* The leader is also responsible for his team's discipline - in game however, teams are completely free to assign tasks as they wish
* All participants, please, be respectful, be fair, fly with honor
* This is especially important for the elements of the tournament that are solely dependent on gentlemen's agreement (see further down for CRL)
* Throughout a match, there are two alternating game phases, which are important to be understood: 1. the engagement phase and 2. the disengagement phase
* During the engagement phase, teams are allowed to attack the other team by any means available; this includes ramming
* During the disengagement phase, it is prohibited to attack or pursue an adversary; this includes ramming
* Detailed explanation about disengaging further down in the 'MAPS and Disengagement Rule' section
* Landings are not allowed, the only way to refuel or rearm is to crash
* All teams must choose and post their "Home" map (their favorite map)
* No rockets allowed
* Bombs are allowed only if a player thinks that the extra weight helps his plane's performance, however, bombs are never to be released (otherwise this is a Rules violation)
* All matches are played in Club Rules Light (CRL), which means all players must remain in cockpit view and without HUD at all times, without exception
* All players and teams have to visit the first two posts of the tournament thread regularly for any news or updates, as they will be used as Bulletin Boards
* The objective of the Tournament is to make your opponent's team suffer higher losses than your team (within the rules); it is irrelevant whether a kill or a crash is registered (check scoring section for more info)
* Ramming an opponent during an engagement phase (for whatever reason) is explicitly allowed


- Important -
CONNECTIVITY ISSUES
Following suggestions regarding connectivity issues:

• Before a match, all players should meet in text chat to prepare for the game
• The player with the strongest connection should always set up the game, 
irrespective of whether he or his team is the host of the match or not; players should discuss and agree on that in chat
• The host team is the team whose 'home map' will be used. The host team also has the right to chose side 'A' or 'B', and weather
• if a game is interrupted by a connection error, it should be repeated
• if however a team suspects that the connection error was caused on purpose to gain unfair advantage,
the team can refuse to repeat the game and call for a referee game by contacting the organizers
• referees are assigned by the organizers of the tournament
• they are players with strong internet connection who are trusted and will host the referee games
• they will chose a bomber and retreat to a corner of the map during the game as to not interfere with the gameplay
• upon completion of the game, they will take the screenshot of the final results and forward to the organizers
• the organizers of the tournament reserve the right to exclude any player from the tournament
who is repeatedly found in violation of the rules or of unfair behavior


SETTINGS: (Matches will have to be repeated in case of any violations to these)

* Simulation mode only
* Map: teams must post their favorite map as soon as possible as this will become their Home map. The Host team will have the advantage of selecting either side A or B. (check Maps section below for a complete list and explanation of the maps)
* Strike Mode: the match will be played in Strike mode. Every crash equals a death. Also, it allows each player to respawn at their corresponding base
* Time Limit: All matches except for the final will be 20 minutes. The Finals will be set to 30 minutes
* Weather: Host team can choose any of Clear, good, and Hazy
* Respawn Time: Set this to 5 seconds (check Maps section for more info)
* Time of day: Host team can choose any except Night
* loadout: limited ammo and fuel only
* Aircraft allowed: To be determined (vote between: I-16 and YAKs)

MAPS and Disengagement Rule
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/...l1986/map1.jpg
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/...l1986/map2.jpg
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/...l1986/map3.jpg
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/...l1986/map4.jpg
* There are a total of 8 maps, each team has to chose one as their "Home" map, once chosen this will not be changed throughout the tournament
* All 8 maps are shown further down; everything in green represents side A, and everything in red represents side B
* When, at any point throughout the match, whether by enemy contact or by accident, an aircraft crashes or is shot down, all hostilities must stop immediately and a disengagement phase sets in
* During a disengagement phase, all players must fly away from any opponent's position on the map (red dots) to such distance until the red dots have disappeared from the map
* The disengagement phase is over when the team member CLOSEST to the enemy's respawn position doesn't have ANY opponents' red dots on HIS map any longer
* This means that the team member FURTHEST away from the opponent's respawn point can not use his map's indications to determine that the disengagement phase is over; he has to wait for either a voice confirmation from his team member, or for signs of a course reversal of his team member on the map before moving again in the direction of the enemy's respawn position; he may however hover at the point where he stopped seeing the red dots on the map
* It is advisable that teams use the disengagement phase to reestablish visual contact with their team members and form up as a team again; this is however not mandatory
* Once the disengagement phase is over, all players are free to maneuver as they wish and engage the enemy
* To keep disengagement phases as short as possible, respawn time shall be set to 5 Seconds


GAMEPLAY:

* Flash Tournament, No group phase, but tournament start is in the 'Quarter Finals'
* Quarter Final pairings will be established randomly, by a procedure which will be published
* All pairings quarter finals upwards will play each other twice, each team will once be Host and once be Guest
* all matches to be set to 20 minutes duration, except for the Finals, which will be 30 minute matches
* the accumulated result of both matches will determine the winner of each pairing
* the winning team will proceed to the next stage of the tournament or will have won the tournament (final), the losing team will be eliminated


MATCHES AND SCHEDULE FLEXIBILITY (important to read)

* The Wing Leader of the winning team is responsible for submitting the results to edal86 after a match. This also applies if a team gives up during a match, and leaves the match without asking raising a dispute (this applies if both players of a team withdraw; if one stays to fight till the end, it is not a withdrawal). In this case the match is counted as a defeat against the team which has given up. The 'winner' of such a match is also responsible to submit the intermediate results to edal86 with a remark: 'Win by withdrawal'. On the PS3, to save and submit the results, press the PS button, (Don't hold it down though) then scroll left to camera menu, and there is an option to take a screenshot. It will then be saved to your HD. Use this to take a snapshot of the "Match Results". Then, attach it to a PSN message along with the following: "name of host team" vs "name of visitor team". Finally, send the PSN Message to edal86. (No Screenshot = Invalid Match)

NOTE: XBOX360 Players, please submit a procedure which will apply to you!

* Teams will have about a week to complete and submit their scheduled matches. During this time it is the Wing leader's responsibility to coordinate with this Wingman and the other team's Wing Leader to agree on a time and day for the matches
* Communication is vital, if a team doesn't answer to a match challenge during the given time, it will automatically forfeit. However, if a team knows in advance that it will not be able to play during the given time frame, please contact edal86 and / or your opponent as soon as possible
* A new schedule will be posted regularly
* The "weekly" schedule will indicate your next opponent team, do not wait until the last minute to complete and submit your matches
　

DISPUTES:

* In case there is a dispute about the application of the rules during a match, the team suffering from the rule breaking of the other team can decide to interrupt the match and bring the breaking of rules to the attention of the other team via text chat
* If however the team suffering the rule breaking of the other team decides to play on (for example due to tactical reasons, because they are in the lead), they forfeit their chance to call a dispute about it later on
* In most cases, after an interruption of a match has occurred, teams should be able to come to an understanding how to deal with the rule breaking
* the team guilty of breaking the rules should in principle accept defeat in this match; the other team however can decline this and invite for a rematch
* In most cases the teams should be able to bring disputes to a conclusion with the mentioned methods
* However if the teams can not find an amicable solution to their problem they should bring it to the attention of the tournament's organizers who will decide on any steps to be taken

SCORING:

* Please observe the following:
- In order to win a match, a team must have less deaths than their adversary at the end of the 20 minute / 30 minute duel
- In case both teams have the same amount of deaths at the end of the match, then the match will be considered a draw
- If after two matches neither team has won more matches than the other (e.g. 0:0 or 1:1), the outcome of the stage will be determined by the tie breaker rule
- the tie breaker is determined by the number of deaths per team. In case of a tie in the number of deaths, the tie breaker will fall to the team with the least amount of Kills, in case of a tie in the number of Kills then the tie breaker will be determined by an additional match which the tournament's organisers will call for. This will be another 20/30 minute match between the two teams on a random map, excluding the home maps of both teams, and random weather; this will be repeated as often as necessary until a winner is established either by a clear result or by the application of the tie breaker rule
- Stage winners proceed to the next round, losers are eliminated
- The winners of the Finals win the tournament and carry away the title 'The Gruesome Twosome'


*** The organizers of the tournament reserve the right to exclude any player from the tournament who is repeatedly found in violation of the rules or of unfair behavior

*** All rules apply to every single participant including the organizers, No rule will be bent for NO ONE



- edal

reserved for data
 

Dont worry, I will make everything look better when I have time :S



http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/...bxboxweek1.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/.../ps3groups.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/...xboxgroups.jpg

Brilliant initiative Edal (& MAC) :)
I'd love to take part.

Connection ratio: Down 14 mbit/sec - up 2,4 mbit/sec

Good one Edal,

Very happy you've taken this up once again. Since it's such a small tournament and most likely we'll know each other well enough for it, how about making this a CRL (Club Rules Light) affair - i.e. cockpit only, limited fuel and ammo, no HUD. It makes a world of difference for a quality game, but of course we'd only have each other's word for it.

As for airplane types, I'm for the I-16 only. It's a fun plane and Russian too, so this way we'd honor the devs a bit.

What do you all think?

:)

MAC

P.S.: Mage, if you have time I'd love us to form a team.

Now this is good errr great
 

Pretty sure trvrgunning and myself will be interested to join. I must touch bases with him. Are you sure its not called a flash tournemant because that's about all we see when you aces pass by? Hopefully you will finish with one of you superbrawls. Pencil in WalterNowotny and Trvrgunning.Thanks again for commiting the time and effort to put this together.

hello aces!!!

count with me!!

yes i'm agree to honored the devs with the i16!!!!great idea !!!

[IMG]http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/...2718795971.png[/IMG]

Edal, Do you think we can run a parallel xbox version of this tournament? I'd be willing to do the organising part and results management of the xbox side if you could give me some of your expierence from your past events on what to do.

Great concept
 

Hey Edal/Mac

Great initiativ, count me and McQ in as 331 SQD in.

As for planes of choice I go for the P51's. That makes it possible to have a choice by favorite. I am a bit afraid that the I16's tends to send us in to a very tight furball of turn&burn. My 2 cents...
I am all for the CRL and the cockpit-view :-)

Thanks for the support!!
 

Seems that we can begin to plan and schedule this tournament then :)

I would like for this Tournament to begin on October 23rd (Sunday), that leaves a little less than a month to recruit the players needed and organize everything.

Replies

MAC,
I like your idea to honor the Devs by making this an I-16 only competition, but also, as someone else posted above, this might inevitably make it a turn n burn craziness (which I dont really mind). How about we honor the Devs as well as the dedicated followers of the P-51 Club by allowing both the I-16 (no rockets) and the P-51? This may turn into something interesting since tactics for these planes are complete opposites. Also, having a Light P-51 Club rules (cockpit view only, no HUD) is impossible to implement and verify so lets leave it to a vote.

Robotic Pope,
It would be an honor to host a parallel tournament for you Xbox pilots, the only problem that I see really is finding a way to report the match results since you guys dont have the screenshot option. As for the "crash, no kill" problem this is easily solved by our Tournament's rules since all crashes count as deaths. All I need is that you commit to recruiting players that you know are trustworthy and that you collect the match results and submit them to me. Please keep it a 16 player max tournament. We will be in contact.


Requirements

1. Please vote by posting
2. Post your PSN/Xbox gamertag if you wish to participate (we will worry about teams later)

What about the MC202? It's nearly never presented in the BoP-skies. Would be nice to roam around in that little italian bugger.

Votes
 

1: P51
2: Chosen wingman. (easier to communicate in 1. language)
3: CLR (as we are all gentlemen flying in sim mode)

I'm in anyone want to team up

I'm In.
 

Sounds like fun, I'm up for any planes/rules. An I-16 rout does sound like good fun though.

im game as long as it stays freindly.i might want to talk to popey sometime this week before i vote on rules.
yours truly
xbl bucketmanroc

It will stay friendly of course bucket, Ive got you penciled in flying with Evangelus hopefully (thats if we can get him off cliffs of dover ;) )

you have one in the works for xbox?? count me in...need a partner tho.

Please dont forget to post your PSN or XBOX gamertag, this is your way of applying. If you have friends you would like to add, please let them know that they have to post their own information, you cant do it for them.

McQ,

the MC202 is one of my favorites too, thanks for your vote, Lets wait and see what everyone thinks, maybe we can have a plane from each Nation (those that are a little harder to compete with, for example: Britain (Hurricane), USA (P-51), Italy (MC 202), Germany (FW 190), USSR (I-16, I really like how the engine dies if you dont dive properly).

get your official app. in bobbysocks.partners will be sorted out eventually.:)

then count me in....

I have to post it for him, sorry Edal :-P ;)

Bobby, I'm hoping BeaverCompany, RamboRich, Cryptic Phantom, and others (aka the group that usually plays after i've gone to bed) will be able to enter this so you'll have plenty of possible wingmen. Not sure how we'll work with the time differences but i'm sure we'll figure something out.

after talking to popey tonight he wanted to keep it close to your ps3 tournament as far as rules. i would hope we all have to fly the same plane.one with cockpit available.

I'm in. Would personally prefer teams get choose their plane from ones with available cockpit but in the end I'm fine with what ever the organizers decide.

It seems then that it may be the best idea to limit all players to the same plane in order to keep things simple and smooth. Perhaps this is why the P-51 tournament worked well because we only allowed the P-51. So far it seems like this tournament's official bird will be the I-16 to honor the Dev team.

Hurricane,
Yes, rules will be the same for PS3 as well as for the XBOX tournament, and these rules will be taken directly from the "P-51 club Ace of Aces Tournament".

All XBOX players,
Please make sure you get familiar with these rules as you probably are unaware of them. The rules are in English, French, and German. Keep in mind that these were rules for a 1vs1 tournament that only allowed the P-51. I will post a 2vs2 version of it for this tournament soon.
check link below.
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...82&postcount=2

Please keep posting and spread the word so that we can get this Tournament running on schedule. Thanks

Hi Edal,

I agree, whatever aircraft we decide on using - I think it would be best to only allow one type for all. My wish would be the I-16, in CRL (this would have to find unanimous agreement of all participants). It's a lovely plane to fly in the cockpit, and so much fun!

To better see how we're doing with recruitment, would you mind starting a list on your first or second post? I think we still need quite a few more pilots.

MAC

Edal,

Seems I've missed you'd already posted the list of all applicants, sorry.

About the vote,

1.)

I feel the P-51 Club has already been suffiently honored with the Ace of Aces tourney which was P-51 only; this time I feel it's more important to show the devs some support ahead of the new game Birds of Steel. So the I-16 it would be for me, exclusively.

2.)

About teams, I'm for free team building, i.e. everyone can chose their partners, but we would try to assist those who don't nominate their partner by doing this for them.

3.)

CRL, but this depends on who is participating and if everyone agrees to that, otherwise there's no point. I believe we'll find 16 contestants with clean track records who all understand the concept of chivalry. But we'll see.

Finally, I'd like to apply here on behalf of Mage_016. He wrote me on another forum that his PC broke down and he's got trouble logging in here. He's also for the I-16, CRL and we would like to team up.

Looking forward! Thanks Edal!

MAC

Can I get on the list pending I find a wingman anyway lol

Okay guys, I see the I-16 type 24 is a good runner up here - and as such I've got nothing against either the plane or honouring the devs, but I think it has a significant missing attribute; Combatflaps! I had to do a "test-flight" today to make up my mind about it, and discovered it missed one of the most significanbt features that differ sim from the other modes. I think it will be cool to have to remember the flaps in the heat of the battle. This time...

So I go for a plane with both cockpit and flaps. I don't wanna be a pain in the arse here, I just think the decision about plane(s) of choice should be done with all pros&cons considered.

McQ,

No problem with your opinion at all, but I think the negative G engine cutout 'feature' of the I-16 more than makes up for the non-existent combat flaps. It requires skill to fly in combat and not make your engine die. Just saying.

MAC

+1

I know the La's have combat flaps, not 100% sure about the yaks since I have not used them in a very long time but they are both other russian options. I fully support using the cockpit view as well.

Ooops! thanks pope, had a bad couple of days and was glancing over the thread quickly when i could. I'm with McQ...would prefer a plane with combat flap. any plane is ok....just would like to practice in for a week or 2 prior to the tourney, as for the time change.....i can devote a thurs, fri, or sat to play guys over there....as for my wing or who i wing cant say.

So far Ive also got xtomisx, U2711AZ, and Panzergrante. I just need to get them to post here.



EDIT: Edal, xtomisx is unable to post on the forum so has asked me if I can confirm his entry for him. He is able to read the rules though and he will be my wingman so I can handle the posting of our results. By the way the xbox lack of screen shot shouldn't be a problem. All I will need is a xbox message or forum PM stating the match result from one person on each side. If they match, all is good and I can pass the result to you.

Ok. Please add me on the xbox list players . May i suggest this? 2 planes. For example : 1st match team A spitfire vs team B bf 109 - 2nd match reverse. Thx.

if they really want a screen shot...everyone has a cell phone with a camera. shot the scoreboard then forward it to your email. i do this at work all the time with stuff...works very well.

Mavrickandgoose,
PS3 or XBOX? I also need your id (PSN/gamertag)

MckinneyJD,
PS3 or XBOX? (PSN/Gamertag)

U2711AZ,
What is your xbox gamertag?
Also, I see what you mean assigning different planes to home and away maps in order to, in some way, give home pilots a little advantage, however, I would really prefer to keep it a one plane only tournament. I think that having to choose your own, favorite map (and side of the map) is a good enough advantage.

Robotic pope & Bobbysocks,
Both ideas for reporting results for xbox are great and I had considered, I was not sure though if everyone could be able to submit a photo from a personal camera (phone). I only would need the winner (flight lead) to report results and the defeated (flight lead) to report results in order to confirm. Photos will be more reliable than actually having to write down all of the 4 players' stats for the match results, you guys think we can work with xbox participants in order to make this photo result reporting possible?

I-16,
I am with MAC, the I-16 may not have combat flaps like all other planes and this may seem to make SIM mode with these planes more like a REALISTIC mode, however, this plane has an engine problem if not handled adequately and this is something that other planes dont have and will make the plane a little more tricky to fly than being able to set flaps. Besides, if you really cant live without flaps on SIM mode you can try using your landing gear for those tight turns or slow speed maneuverability.

Idea, please post opinion:
All teams will be composed of a Flight Lead and a Wingman, were the purpose of the Flight Lead will be to report results to me or Robotic Pope. However, I was thinking of taking this a little further and see if it will add a little more to having a more "tactical 2v2 tournament", nothing too crazy ofcourse. So the idea would be to reward (little more points) the team that is able to down the enemy's Flight Lead (or maybe make the Flight Lead's deaths count as double). I dont want to make the tournament revolve around this idea I just thought it would make it a little more interesting. What do you think?

Thank you all for posting :)

edal i think this is possible. i do this all the time for reports i write. i take a pic with the camera on my phone then send it to my email address. then i can either forward that pic to another email or save as an attachment to post on a website. most everyone on xbox has a mic and we talk in the lobby...i think we can iron it out.

My xbox gamertag is U2711AZ , the same one i log in here. Thx

Opninions:

Plane
I had some matches the last days in the I-16, and found it fun to dogfight in, but I have some thoughts about it being the chosen for this tournament.

The I-16 is a slow plane. From my experience from the P51 tourney, there will be different maps in use, with different spawn areas. In the P51 tournament there was a lot of time flying to get positions and after kills get to fly away due to the disengagement rule.
Flying the I-16 under these circumstances seems to gain a disadvantage of the purpose of the tournament.
There will be a lot of flying, and less fighting. Figure it as we have to team up, fly in position, locate the enemy, there might just be about the time when your engine shut down at the point when battle engages.

If we are tho honor the Devs, what about some other russian plane, IL4, Il2 M or maybe the IL 10 ?

Yes, I was kidding. we got great fighters like LA-5, LA-7 and the yaks......

Scoring
How to locate wingman or wingleader ? we all got same skins ?

2v2 sounds intresting, just a thought russian plane to say thanks to devs is cool so in my mind its got to be the best plane in the game which happens to be russian, the LA7, fast plane great turns makes a great game, :-)

themiester and me would like to team up ps3 psn same as on forum will get themiester to post to,:-)

Important Discussion, please read and post opinion

KAV,
Thanks for your post. You may be right, the I-16 engine dies out very quickly especially if you use WEP for long periods of time (flying across maps). I would not like the idea of my ammo outlasting my engine if you know what I mean. However, the LA's are out of the question, they are simply too easy and perfect to fly. I would go more for the YAK's. Also, this way we can have different variants to choose from.

Again, regarding scoring for downing a Flight Lead, you will know at the end of the match or whenever you die how many times your team has killed the opponent's flight lead. Your opponent may not know who is your team's Flight lead during the dogfight but you will, and you will have to not only worry about bringing your enemy's planes down but also about working with your wingman in order to prevent your flight lead from being shot down (as much). Or maybe,by using YAKs, we can now be able to distinguish the wingman from the flight lead by having teams fly different variants of the YAK.

Keep posting please, and comment on the discussion above, this is what is building up this tournament; your suggestions. Thank you again :)

Here's my 2 cents on the recent comments and suggestions.

First, about the wingleader / wingman idea. For me it seems to unnecessarily complicate things, as in a modern 2 aircraft flight section these roles are pretty interchangable ( -> Loose Deuce Tactics). And which ever element of the section is being shot down, it's an equally great loss for the strength of that section.

Next, about the I-16. There is no inherently built in necessity to burn the engine out by overusing WEP. The engine runs just fine if you don't do this and don't negative G it too much. This really adds a dimension most other planes are lacking of, and remember: Birds of Steel will feature some more complex engine management options in the highest levels of the game, so this might also be a good preparation. I can also not agree with the arguement that there may not be enough fighting if we're using this plane. The distances are really not that big, and even with the disengagement rule applied we should see plenty of contact opportunities for two aggressive teams facing off (there will however always be the possiblity that one team prefers defensive tactics and wait for having the upper hand before engaging - this choice remains with each team, no matter what aircraft is used). The I-16 is Russian, has its challenges, and most imortantly, is a unique fun airplane with it's open cockpit and maneuverability. So I'd really not see why it shouldn't be a suitable plane for the tournament. The way I see it, it should be up to the tournament's organizer to decide on the plane/s which he wants to allow. This would really be Edal in this case as I've only given the initial impulse, but all the organizing is being done by Edal this time. So I'm only voicing my opinion here, but Edal, please decide.

One last question. What do you think of the idea that if one team member is killed it counts as if the whole team was killed, so essentially each kill/death counts double? This way the remaining team member would have the choice of remaining on the battlefield facing a big disadvantage (and the chance of another 2 point loss), or bailing and respawning very closely to his teammate with the chance of regrouping for a fresh encounter. This way we'd most likely keep the concept of 2vs2 intact.

MAC

+1

So you mean when 1 man gets shot down (2 scored) the 2nd gets to choose a free death (0 scored) or to fight on alone and suffer another 2 scored if shot down? The problem I see in this is that a picture or indeed a writen down score of the result would not show any of these choices made.

My vote would be for keeping it simple, 1 death equalls 1 scored no matter who it is. If a team plays the match as waves of 1 man rather than 2 men working together then they will suffer untill they realise there mistake and learn to work together. I don't think we need an artifical way of doing this. If your wingman is shot down, you are on your own, a smart pilot would retreat back to pick up his respawned wingmate, maybe even trying to lure an enemy plane into a trap. Here the I-16's limited WEP makes some more intersting decisions like do you risk WEP to retreat, or do you risk a slower engine friendly retreat and hope the enemy isn't caning their engine to catch you.

ok m8 lets do it ,i'm in
yaks are a good choice

1-16 was flyinging with some fine pilots yesterday and i have got to say it is a fun little plane to fly my vote 1-16 guys,:-)

Mac
I believe Edal made it clear in his initial post:


Please Vote!
1. What planes should we allow?
Should we make this tournament: I-16 planes only, I-16 and P-51 planes only, or other. (the reason behind using these planes is to honor both the Devs and the P-51 Club)



Lets make a poll amongst the participants.

You're right KAV,

but in my own humble opinion, there must be a time for discussion, and then there must be a decision. It doesn't help anyone if this drags on for too long, it would now be better to decide on a type so we can all get to practice before the tourney. Sometimes even autocratic decisions can have their merits. For example, before we launched the Ace of Aces Mustang Trophy, very few people liked the P-51, and after the tourney's introduction there was a bit of moaning why we had decided on this type instead of a Spitfire and so on. But it was a set decision from the start and we didn't discuss it. And since the tournament it's become a really popular plane.

But I don't mind a vote either should Edal want that. But let's decide.

MAC

no probs for me ,i will use planes allowed.

I go with the Pope on this; Let's keep it simple. Less room for "misunderstandings" that way.

And the idea of using the yaks is brilliant imo. Secondary I go for a poll on the planes in question.

that might be a good idea.it would help with enemy identification.trouble is axis planes have no cockpit.allied planes are going to be shooting down allied planes anyway so why not do it with planes with cockpits.
p.s.if you are going to decide on one plane I would vote for the yak.fast enough,nice cockpit,decent in turns,and you have to be a pretty good shot if your not close.

Poll is ready please vote. Poll ends in 8 days.


Dont worry, there will be plenty of time before tournament starts to practice with your wingman.

Trial matches
 

Just had a couple of matches tonight.
Some dogfights in the yak 3 and 2vs2 in the I-16 on strike map Stalingrad with tourney rules.
Flew with Mac, Plavi, u2 and Walter.

The Yaks has a challenging cockpit, and is a great challenge to fly and to aim as the blazing nose guns really put some fire in the visual range.

The I -16 has the engine issue and is slow when one has to disengage. My experience tonight gave me the result of voting for the Yaks (sorry Mac)
It just ends with to much flying, engine trouble and less fighting with the I-16.

Hey Edal.

While navigating the thread on my iPod I accidentally voted in the poll. I was the 4th vote for the Yak. Sorry for the trouble, I'll try to be more careful.

StiC

Just reminding people that the Yak-9 has no team markings. Its not important for me but it might be for some.

I'm in
 

W_REDMANN on ps3 and i think the same on x-box

I'm in W_REDMANN on ps3 and i think its the same on x-box ill check

Count me in for Xbox....prefer the Yak if available.

Good game with you KAV and Mac. Always great to be a flying Drone(LOL) enjoyed flying I-16 I only had engine problem once during all the matches and if I had the altitude I think I could have saved it the engine was retarting before i crashed. Now I would like to wish everyone good luck in the tournament I'll be gone for the next 2wks visiting family and friend.

Stic,

thanks for posting and dont worry about your vote. there is still plenty of room if you want to join and make your vote count :)

_REDMANN_

welcome aboard, so you are joining both versions of the tournament (PS3/XBOX)? just confirm your XBOX gamertag

SEE,

welcome, in for XBOX

Thanks KAV,

Plavikit, U2, WalterNowotny for the trial matches last night. I think they worked pretty well.

One thing I noticed was that the disengagement rule is a bit more tricky to observe since there are 4 players now, not two. I think it still works but we must keep in mind: if anyone crashes or gets killed (as is visible by the announcement on the screen), all engagements must stop immediately, even if just about to shoot an opponent down. Then, all have to move away from each other until no opponent shows on the map - this also gives each team the chance to team up again.

Hopefully all who take part in the tournament get a chance to practice that so we don't run into problems when the tournament starts.

As for the choice of airplanes, I'm happy with the poll. But to exclude the chance of counting votes of people who are not participating in the tournament it would be better to make this a public poll where the voters and their votes could be seen.

MAC

Trust me I've thought hard about entering, but real life and time zone issues keep me from doing so.

StiC

Nice to see u'r on meistor. I think maybe Edal has overshoot your post though as u'r not listed yet.

I guess the usual suspects soon will be represented and ready for yet another take-off :cool:

I'm not late am I? I'd happily join if someone wanted to be my wingman? :) As long as the games are all finished by 22:00 GMT (imposing strict rules on my self for college, this year).

If that's possible, then somebody join up with me; do remember I got to the knock-out rounds of the AoA tournament.

On the subject of aircraft, I voted for the Yaks, manly because I think it alows for better team strategies etc (more chance of the other team removing my wings :p).


Edit: I'm Reaper1526 on PSN, for those that don't know :)

Hi,

I'm in, on the Xbox 360.

My gamertag is sergius186d

See U

sergius186d

you might want to check out the "NEW PILOTS REPORT HERE" thread. read through and post....welcome to the forum.

I'll do !

Thanks

* thanks MCQ, I missed themeistor's post.

* welcome back P-51

4 more spots available for PS3

8 more spots available for XBOX

All who plan to participate please read:
I must add, since some of the settings for this tournament wont be able to be verified and are only based on trust, and since I have been away for some time and many dont know me or I dont know many of the new faces or XBOX players, your participation must be approved by either MAC or Robotic Pope, if neither of these two gentlemen know you, then you can still participate by having 3 other approved participants or trusted veteran pilots confirm and post that they know you and that you are a trusted and honest pilot. I hope this does not offend anyone, but we take great care in our tournaments and ensuring that we have the best experience possible, thank you :)

BY THE WAY, I WILL BE RECORDING ALL OF MY MATCHES AND POSTING THEM HERE, VIDEO WONT LIE :)

good you found it sergius,pope should be on sometime to approve your entry.I sent a messages out for pope to some of the other guys,hopefully we will get a few more.havn't seen beaver playing lately though.

Hurricane,
Thank you and please keep spreading the word, what ever happened to FOZ1983? or something like that I remember flying with him on my short birds of prey visit to the XBOX

The time zone thing may be problematic for me and I'm surely getting rusty...................................lol perhaps I can use the LA-5 instead? Just Kidding.

As you can see I've been a member of this forum for over two and a half years played this game since it came out, logged 430 games in sim, played in the tournament lost cause set up. Played lots of cockpit view games with meistor and tommy kocher. So certainly not a new face. But if you need more than that you should message the meistor, olife and mirgirvin. I've recently been playing a lot of sim games with Walter, hes definitely a good guy and have known redman for well over a year.

Hi Cep34,

Of course I know you and am happy you'll join. Would be nice if some more of the 'old hands' could join. Everybody, please spread the word.

Thanks,

MAC

@ Redman and WalterNowotny
 

You got PMs (Private Messages). Please check and reply.

MAC

Thanks for the welcome back Edal! It'll be good to fly together once more!

I need some practice though! :P

Thanks to you and Pope for giving me the opportunity !!!

It's gonna be FUN :)

I'm thinking we should keep this as simple as possible. And how about using cta maps this time. Smaller map would bring the action on earlier and we wouldn't have to fly long distances to engage with enemy and team mate again. *ad: in smaller maps I16's would be awesome* And airfield is clear and easy to spot arena for fighting.

Ps I know w-redman, flew with/against him long time ago. If it helps anyone. Good guy.

I can personaly approve of all the people currently on the list bar Redman who I don't know, I think he is primarly a PS3 player. That includes BeaverCompany if he chooses to enter and Panzergranate who still needs to post in this thread (I got him to post on this forum for the first time in over a year but he went and posted in my BA advert thread instead of this one :rolleyes: )


Nice to have you here Sergius, I hope it all works out well and it's an enjoyable competition for all :)

Thanks Pope, I'm sure it will be :grin:

gee beav, can't you come out and play?

Thanks to Bucketman for the heads-up. Ive only just joined the forum, should be good fun. I-16 gets my vote despite dodgy engine... Tally Ho! NineInchDaddy69

PS3, PSN: McKinneyJD

Rules Version 1.0 are ready
 

Hi everyone,
Version 1.0 of the rules for this tournament are ready, check the first post of this thread.

NineInchDaddy69,
welcome, You are on the XBOX right?

3 more participants needed for PS3

7 more participants needed for Xbox
* A minimum of 12 participants are needed, we currently have 9 (only 7 have been approved) spread the word

bobbysocks
I noticed beaver was on IL2 last night the same time you were.hopefully he will get in here.I know it doesn't work out for everybody but some of us get on fri. and saturday around 9-12pm gmt.hopefully we can get our 12 guys soon so we can get our teams figured out.

yeah we lured him away from BF3 ( or whatever it is ) for awhile to fly the unfriendly skies. we even messed around with yak 3s in a sim round to get a feel for things. all i can say is he ( and rambo ) are contemplating it. it would be a shame to not get enough guys....but in the same vane it would be awful to have enough in the beginning and then teams forfeit due to no shows. i would rather not waste someone time if that be the case.

you read my mind.you never know if something comes up and someone can't play.oh well we can't predict the future .hopefully some players will join this weekend.I got a message from ole madmax on xbox today saying it sounded like fun but he has not been playing for a long time.real life gets in the way sometimes.
p.s. wow I sounded pessamistic there.middle of the week blues i guess.and the phillies lost.

Long time no see!
 

Hey Guys,
Good to see you still up in the big blue!
Since i got shot down over the Ardenne it's taken me a long time to make it back to Blighty!
So it's time to dust off the old Spit & chocks away! :cool::cool:

I approve. Good to see you here Nine. :)

Hi Edal, reading through the rules I have realised that this No HUD rule will be quite a problem for anyone on xbox using a Joypad, In that we don't have the alternate control schemes that put the throttle on the triggers. This means without the throttle position on the HUD we have no way of knowing where the throttle is set other than looking at the modeled throttle in the cockpit, but of course you can't look down at the throttle in the cockpit and move the throttle at the same time because they are assigned to the same stick (R3 shift to look), so you have to guess the throttle movement blind and then look down to check it. This is obviously highly inconvenient if not imposible in the middle of a dogfight.

Thus I would ask that the no HUD rule be deleted on the xbox side. Cockpit only should of course remain.

Thanks Edal for all this effort you are putting into this.

This is the same on ps3.
But not a problem, use your ears and listen to your engine.
I have been flying in this mode on ps3 for some while, and manage ok if I may say so myself.

[QUOTE=hurricane;344867and the phillies lost.[/QUOTE]

they're still doing better than the pirates!!

MAX! glad to see you back, bro.

Pope, what happens if you minimize the HUD using the game pad? what do you lose and keep? we might have to set up a couple weeks of training sessions to get into the groove.

On PS3 you have a choice and by continuing to use the original throttle on right stick you are choosing to handicap yourself greatly compared to those using a joypad with the Aviator controls or using a flight stick. On xbox people won't have this choice, they will be forced into this huge disadvantage and I don't think that is fair.

Robotic Pope,
thank you for the observation, we will see about this.

What do the rest of you XBOX players think?

use a joystick....not a problem for me.

I would like to join the Xbox 360 Flyers!
 

Hi Mr Pope, Bucket, Angelo, Bobbysox, Panzer etc.
It would be an honour to fly combat with you guys in this competion. :cool:

Back from the dead!! Good to see you mate. Clocked you playing a FPS the other day, was tempted to join you haha.

I fear whoever ends up with pazner will be feeling alot of friendly fire ;) haha.

Hey Foz!
 

Hi Geezer,
yeah, it's been a long time, as bucket says, 'life just gets in the way sometimes!'
I must start flying with you chaps so i an get up to speed again, i'll be looking out for you!:-P

It has indeed,

I don't really fly combaty anymore, as you say "life just gets in the way sometimes" so on the rare chance i do get on IL2 then 9/10 its just for training purposes or to free fly.

We will catch up soon enough mate though im sure.

Are you sure it's not Dead Island, Gears of War 3 and Fifa 12 that get in the way? :-P

for me i found it difficult to use a game pad in sim to look around because you had to push down on the left analog which means you cannot control your throttle at the same time.i know popey uses the directional pad to check around but then you are in third person which would mean your not in cockpit.to me flying with a game pad is a disadvantage(you wouldnt know it the way pope plays though).I think cockpit should be optional for xbox.