Suddenly Spit IIa on all the servers?
 

whats the idea behind it? ******* up the game for the german side? SUCCESS!! This is a joke guys. The 109 modeled in game cant do shit against a spit IIa. it cant even run from it. So whats you serverhosters point? I mean it wasnt even present in the BOB in significant numbers...How about just adding lots of AIs in 109s and everyone flies spitfire. Yeah that must be fun.

Always the same with those flightsims.

Winger

Stop whining. dont like, make your own server.

Go fart around elsewhere Pupo:P Explanation: German Pups = Fart.
Ah and let me guess. You fly allied side mostly? Since noone that prefers flying german has left big fun since this practice started. Just take a look at the numbers. Post this habbit the sides were most of the time even with some runaways to the one or the other side. Now there are jusut a few Germans and believe me even those will vanish if it stays like that. They simply start flying allied. And only the noobs that dont know it better jump into the coffin named 109. Even a bad Spit pilot in a IIa must be just stupid to loose a fight against a 109 on even energylevels. Even if the 109 is an ace.

Winger

If the 109 pilot is an ace, he will not enter a fight with a Spitfire IIa with the same energy...

:cool:

i am actually wondering if anyone is thinking that there should be a difference in flight performance between the 109E-1, -3 & -4............

1C should programm them with the absolute same FM! IMHO

I know that. But somtimes there is no other choice - especially on a dogfight server. I know now one can say just play full real. But why not simply restore the balance that we had before? The IIa doesnt belong into this scenario.
It simply negates the fun fun to play the opposing side. I mean be honest. We all play to win... And its just no fun if you start each game knowing the other players always get 3 of the 4 aces on the deck. Especially when those 3 aces come from another game!

Winger

Who said otherwise? It should have the same FM. but actually it doesnt matter since no matter what 109 you fly. The Spit IIa outturns, outdives, outruns and outclimbs you. THERE IS NO POINT IN FLYING AGAINST IT!

Winger

i just made the post because perhaps some missiondesigners thought " hey, there is a new 109 with a higher number . it has to be a better plane perfomancewise , hence the higher number. Lets put the Spit II in together with this E -4".... or something similar ;)

The spit2 doesn't need a equal energy state, its fine chasing the 109 down from below and a less energy state.

This is a flight SIM. If the Spit II outperforms the Bf109E in real life, then it should out perform it here. Simple. Your complaint is with the mission designers, or do you have real numbers and comparisons?

If the 109 pilot is an ACE? Ok granted BUT the Spit2 pilot can be a novice and still do well...you can fly a crosshair around the sky untill you shoot something..

You dont have to worry about Speed/energy & height..I can jump in it and not worry about getting in a furball with 2/3 109's OR worry about a Merge with a 109 Co-Alt

Infact 10 mins ago i done just that, same Alt on the merge with a 109, We both went vertical and I got to the top quicker and held it...he was smoking and crash landed 2 mins later...then i shot down another who dove down on me with loads more E, within pretty much 2 turns ive matched his E state, 10 secs later..dead...neither of these pilots were novices

Surely it wasnt that easy in RL? If it was then we would have had alot more big scoring aces!

all 109s in game has the same armourequipment......so, their general weight is the same.
the E-1 had some few kilos less because of the armament.
Production , maintenance and pilotweight differences simle made this small difference to zero in performance.
What engine they had? DB 601A-1 or the little bit more powerfull DB601Aa, well, both is possible for all variants.


the decissions 1C made in the past about fightervariants are questionable anyway.

Spit I and Hurri I both with Rotol CSP and 100 octan fuel.
Bf109E-1& -4 (plus their -/Bs), both with Db601Aa
would have be my release set.......

later added with Spitfire II, Hurricane II and Bf109E-4/N


british two speed propeller fighters, 109E-3 , were total nonsense decissions IMHO!

LOL nice way of putting it, the spit 2 does seem to out class the 109. I just cant seem to stall it dogfighting compared to the 109 that is always on a knifes edge.

I really enjoy watching the 109 whiners in their ever persistent quest to re-write history.

Cry me a freaking river.

This nonsense has been going on since the dawn of flight simulation. A sub set of German aircraft fanboys pushing their agenda and history be damned.

I laugh in your general direction.

Dude grow up this is not whiners its a fact, currently the only aircraft that has a realistic FM is the Spit Mk2... IRL it could turn better, it could climb better (i think) but currently its MUCH MUCH faster than a 109 as well lol :D.

But even a stall-dogfighting, winning against a spit II, Bf109 is a sitting duck then for even a hurri I 5-20!!

I fly german has a favorite, Red if teams are unbalanced.

ElAurens,

you've just lost a lot credibility!
Fact is that all 109 and some other planes perform not as good as in RL.
The spit II comes closest to RL performance, giving a unneeded advantage!

lets see in some years when a first Curtis will arrive in this game engine and it will perform far away from the stats you know. As best , a correct modelled Ki-43 will outdive it :D



actually im wondering why people belive a Spit II was the wonderweapon against an 109. The 1940 Spits where very good. But it is not so ,as if had had a Spit9 with Merlin66 appeared in combat 1940.

Couple of words for you to ponder on FlyBoy... Dora n TA (Il2), no allied pilots moaned then either no?.. please

Lol..you obviously cant remember the 109 then when it first came to Il2?... how about the La or Yak then again the 25lb Spit..or like i say the TA..

Dude get of that pedistool.. this is about balance...Its not about wanting to change history, its also about having the FM's as close to RL as possible

Spot on.

Its the Battle of Britain it is the closest the 109 will get to outperforming the spit, from here on its basically downhill and your already calling us luftwhiners ;-).

That is what i said.... leave the spit II out and put in Spits Ias and hurris. This is a very good matchup with the current FMs. AND it equates history since the Spit IIa was not present in BOB in significant numbers. I am no historican but i read that numerous times now and take it to be true.

Winger

Sorry, but youre nothing more than an Idiot to me.

Winger

This is not really correct, there were 7 fully equipped Spitfire II squadrons by the end of October, which is about 40% of the acitve Spitfire Squadrons, that is a significant number.

That being said the Spit II should not be 100KPH faster than a 109 E at any altitiude, that is excessive to say the least.

JD
AKA_MattE

100kph? It's not that much faster lol that is a massive difference...20-40kph maybe

I think people need to stop bringing 'RL' into this.

This argument seems to be obviously completely about multiplayer game balance and not about which plane has what stats.

What happens when they give us a later model 109 that outperforms the Mk IIa? Or something else that does? Will that plane be left off of servers as well?

Unless the top two planes for both sides are completely equally matched in every way, there's no end to this.

Anyway, I like flying the Ia anyway. More interesting than setting RPM and leaving it. I just wish they'd put in the little mid point in the prop pitch control that Spitfire pilots found, turning it into a variable by effect. That's quite useful.

yep. a simple whine on how mission builders were buiding THEIR missions as turned into a is 109 porked or not.

I was just quoting Cheesehawk here.


JD
AKA_MattE

The reason I decided to try the spitIIa was in the same lines of thinking the FM had been tweaked for this patch. And the FM has been slightly tweaked.

As someone that plays 46, the 1st thing I do in a 109 is climb, climb, climb, and then climb some more before I even thinking about going to enemy territory. If not, I think we can all agree, unless you are a scissor master in the G-2, that any spit, yak, La5, and even some hurri's will eat you for lunch.

Now I've flown the last 2 nights since the patch was out, and I've yet to see a single proper dog fight at altitude. Every single time I see or hear someone engage on vent they are damn near on the deck. Tonight, for instance, I never left England (couldn't leave actually) because every time I spawned AAA was shooting at a 109 on the deck. I would love to see an E3/E4 at 5000m on up, tangle with any of the current red offerings, but it appears as long as I can remember with MP everything is on the deck. And even with the spitIIa in there, it hasn't changed.

Now, the 1st thing I did when I tried out an E4 was climb with it. I took off near the coast of France and by the time I was 1/2 to the middle of the channel I was over 7000m high. Now if I was to take off in a spitIIa, Hurri, or any of their varients, I don't think I would come close to that alt in such a short flight. I guess my point is, has anyone truly tried to fight a spit properly (very subjective I know) as in, has anyone fought one like how you have to in old IL2? Because all I see time and time again is flights at 2500m and lower and furballs on the deck. It was always the reds that would be uncoordinated and not wing up with each other, simple because of their maneuverability. While the blues were always all on coms with each other always using drag and bag / boom and zoom. From what I'm seeing or have been seeing over the past few months this hasn't happened. Vent is always full of reds and blues seem to be flying lone ranger all the time. (again just from what I've seen)

I'm definitely not saying the SpitIIa is badly outclassing any variant of 109, but until I see some high alt fighting where the red planes have much less performance, I'm not completely sold that the spitIIa can simply out do everything the 109 can.

Can we make an effort (even though it may be boring at 1st) to get altitude, altitude, altitude!!!?? And then secondly, blues join vent or your own ts, fly as pairs, bait the reds to come up and play with you, don't go down into their feeding grounds. I know SA is very hard in IL2COD, but since this patch lower contacts are 10x easier to spot than higher contacts. If you are the king of the hill (higher altitude) you have 2 advantages now.

Again, I'm not advocating which plane is better or worse. I fly all the planes, from bombers to fighters, and all sides. I'm not biased with it comes to wanting both historical accuracy or balance. But please try to keep the 109's out of the shark tank on the deck, I think some people might be surprised if you bait the reds to go up top to join the action, instead of the other way around.

One other thing, I think Ataros mentioned, is there is possibly a way to limit the amounts of certain types of planes? Through FBDj you could do that so if you say only 5 spitIIa's can be in the air at once, only 5 ever be spawned. We need that type of control to be able to limit certain aircraft for balance as well.

I will gladly remove the spitIIa if it is proven to be unfairly dominant in both high and low altitude (low altitude we already agree on). All I'm asking for is to do what the reds have been doing for a while now, get on coms or get a wingman, and get tactical.

These are simply my observations. But based on how most of the flying is that I've seen thus far leading up to this point where we're trying the spitIIa back in, the 109's have been deck hugging. (again just my observations) And I completely agree the 109 is too slow on the deck and needs changing!

Again, there's no agenda here, but even if it may be painfully boring to some, how about the blues make the reds get up to them, instead of the other way around? And then see what happens.

Trust me, I'm not trying to make things unfair, but I would like to see how much difference it makes if you bog those merlins down at 18000 ft and see how bad a spitIIa reacts in very thin air, both in turning and performance compared to the E3/E4. Granted a large majority of my time has been spent in the FMB, much more than flying, from some little testing I've done at altitude, I think the new patch 109 might surprise a few people up top. (again, I could be way off base here) But at least give it a try.. Is that too much to ask? And if the spitIIa is the super plane of all planes still, trust me, it will be gone or if possible severely limited fellas :)

But cheese you know as well as I do, that RL isn't close to what we have now, especially for the climb rate of a MkIa. That thing can barely get out of it's own way, let alone climb. I'm just asking, for the time being, to see how well you do if you force the red team up high (especially with how sickly the 1a acts up there) and see what happens. I'm not suggesting that what we have now is in anyway, shape, or form, correct. Just basing on the fact that any 109 can run circles around a 1a currently especially in a climb.

Well done Bliss - presented a sensible argument and solution!

Agreed :)

All due respect mate but i think you're also showing signs of an agenda.

It's clearly documented in multiple threads thus far that's it's not only the 109. Every single fighter in the sim, both axis and allied, is undermodelled, except the Spit Mk.IIa

BoB era Spits were mostly tuned as interceptors, with climb rate and performance at altitude in mind. They were not furball machines for low level fights. There have been numerous posts on this thread with more details on that aspect.



That being said, i do find the complaints premature. People just thought "let's see how the E-4 does against the Mk.II" and that's why it's included in the servers now, it's a beta patch and beta patches are meant to be tested.


I think everyone should lighten up and fly some bombers for a change until fighters are fine tuned, especially now that the Blenheim is actually usable (the allied side finally has a bomb carrier) and crew position selection in MP is enabled a la IL2, just team up with a buddy and have a bit of level bombing while multicrewing the plane.

I also like Bliss's suggestion. Get three people in 111s and get up to 5000m, add a top cover of two 110s to boom and zoom anyone that tries to climb up there and sprinkle with a rotte of 109s to get the 110s out of trouble. If it's all about the dogfight then it's no surprise the most maneuverable aircraft will usually win, give them an incentive to play by your rules and then squash them ;-)

most of the people who cry...need to learn to fly with theur plane...

you don't fly the same way in all circonstance... don't blame the plane but the pilot!

If someday we have an early pacific scenario, with zeros against all allied fighters, with accurate FMs...

War in uneven as hell... :)

The core problem is: dogfight servers SHOULDN'T have red/blue at all.

All this complaining and crying can be fixed VERY easily. Give both sides the SAME planes. Period.


History, performance, FM blablablabla - all pointless. The pilots of the past had no clue what their enemies weakness was. Also they didn't have 20000 flying hours and a respawn button when they died! They didn't fly reckless sometimes because inexperienced fighters literally peed in their pants. An ace was worth something back then - today everyone can be an as*, eh ace.



Dogfight servers should have open plane selection. Give the red team a red overlay and a special red mark and the same goes for blue. Then everyone can fight out who's really the best - and not just sitting in the best plane while only being a mediocre pilot.


On real co-op/campaign servers it wouldn't matter because numbers etc are often different and thus it's always imbalanced by design.

Respectfully, I disagree. Maybe there could be some servers where the same plane is used by all, but when I've played Il2 with just the same planes, it tends to be the same thing (tactics-wise) ad infinitum. The best fights imo have had different types of planes, where differing strengths of the planes change how the battle plays out.

Just my opinion though. Maybe others feel different.

Bliss - You mentioned that you want to draw the red pilots up to high altitude. You could tempt them up by changing the height of the bomber raids to something higher than at present. Then they should have enough incentive to intercept and the 109's escorting them (players) could engage. The bombers are quite low at the moment I noted when I was on your server so currently there's not that much incentive for red to get much higher than them. Just a thought :)

What everyone is forgetting is that the Mk-1 spit had a wooden Watts propellor what we see in the game is a three bladed spit, the wooden Watts constant speed propellor was desigend for high speed at altitude, it had a huge, for it's version and compared to other versions, take off run. The De-Havilland propellor cut that take off run by at least a third and rotol variable cut that again by half (I have done numerous testings with the A2A sims Accusim Spit and it stands up to all accounts). The Spit II should not dominate at height and neither should the Hurricane or for that matter the E-Mil most of the time it'll depend on the pilot. The first Spit to fully outmatch the E-Mill was the Mk V and that was because of the abilty to dive full down, without the half solution that was Mrs. Shillings oriface, which on the Mk-1's (Type 300) and Mk-2's (Type 329) of most of 1940 had yet to be fitted. So if your flying to dive away from a Spit of whatever mark and you're being caught you're not diving right, the Spit pilot HAS in these two MARKS to roll over first and then dive and counter roll in said dive to catch you, a lot going there and a lot of vital seconds to getaway for the E-Mill pilot. Chop throttle and prop pitch if you're going fast enough 300-395 you'll not pop a casket or burn the engine and you CAN do 2000 mtr dive with no bother level out maintain your speed and no bugger on the map will catch you unless he's in an E-Mill ......................... I've yet to be caught by a spit using this maneouver.

Sorry but please re-read my post. I didn't say everyone has to fly the SAME plane. I said everyone should fly a plane of their choice against a plane of his choice. Nothing would stop you from flying 109's against spits. Ironically it's often the people who want to have the upper hand who're against this type of selection. And if you're not one of them - don't worry: you'll have enough opportunity to fly your 109 against spits. ;)

Fair enough :) I got the wrong end of the stick there. That would be a lot better. I do a lot of that sort of game with my mates on IL2 and it's quite fun. Personally though, I prefer a historical battle if it's available.

EDIT: As in Luftwaffe vs RAF or USN vs IJN etc. not specific recreations of actual battles ;)

History does speak and it says volumes that in the period of the Battle of Britain the UK lost more experienced fighters than the Luftwaffe the pressure on the RAF was to put it mortally was immense the bombing of bases, and attrition in the air caused an almost fatal shortage of manpower for fighting. The strain was getting to breaking point and only the shifting of target to cities relieved that pressure. This is not and CAN never be modelled in any sim/game ...............................................

Personally I think it's the pilot not the plane.

So tell me, how do you know who's who in a full real server (no icons)?:rolleyes: You can easily tell the difference between a spit and a 109. If you do what you want, then you can't fly without those bright red and blue icons.

this remind me that lots luftwaffe pilots just vanish and never show up in everyserver after the il2 1946 patch m4.07 is out. Do not tell me that you are not good enough. german is bad guy so has to go to h#ll. Finally I realize that this is just a game do not take it so serious. I still have lot things to do in real life.;-)

Guys, just ignore ElAurens. He's a BlitzPig, and they only recruit trolls to their squad.

as a 109 flyer to 95%, I like the SpitII adding on the server, no more cryings about HOW GOOD THE 109 is against the Spit and so on.....

now we have the E4, mineshells ruin youre day, if you end up infront of it. and by just taking a SpitII it is not a walk in the park for the guy, if he dont know how to fight....

for now a good SA is needed when fighting a SpitII and thats good how it is, I like it harder :grin: it should force people to start with teamplay....

As for the altitude argument I'm sick of the low flying as well. No matter if I fly for Red or Blue I rarely find anyone up above 2 Km and have to go low to find someone. As I've mentioned in previous posts it's really hard to see guys down low, over land when you are up high.

As for the "everyone is flying Red because of the MKII"... I don't know if ATAG had the MKII when I flew last night but I had to fly Red because everyone was Blue and I'm a 109 nut.

I'm looking forward to trying some more MP tonight! :-D even if I'm stuck in a Spit.

You find me between 3-5000m anytime lol....no ALT means NO energy if needed, some people will find it out as well sooner or later..

Everyone is also forgetting the massive disadvantage any Spit has against a 109 in that the engine cuts under negative G.

So if you catch a Spit of any mark on your tail, dive away as per RL. Or even negative G turns.

I got on the tail of two 109's last night and as soon as my bullets hit, the guy bunted away.
Inverting and diving is possible, but my reflexes aren't what they used to be.
I did follow him in manoevres, just, and got a few more rounds into him, but unfortunately his team-mate shot me first.

So even if the Spit II is faster, there are still ways to overcome.

Last night was the best online CoD experience I've had to date. Just fantastic.;)

Not true I chased a guy home in a 109 yesterday and he kept on trying to slowly gain height and then dive to use advantage of the spits engine cut out but I still got him :D I was just too fast.

The tendency for very low altitude incursions is the problem. Why are BFs flying so low against the Mk1 Spit and Hurricane?

The idea that the Spit Mk2 is invincible and will wreak death and destruction on the servers was not evident in last nights session. Before exiting the server I counted the deaths of Spit MK2 and compared them against the BF's and there were more with evenly matched numbers.

Not a great bemchmark but even so, the numbers don't support the argument of 'significant advantage'.

A Spit Mk2 will not make you an Ace, it wont improve your Gunnery skills, judgement or ability to spot ac,

Of course rate of climb and speed are advantages but so are Fuel injection and Cannons.

What Bliss is proposing seems fair and sensible. Hopefully, these FM issues will be addressed but lets give the Spit a week or so and accept whatever decision is made.

Well I finally got shot down by a human flown Spit tonight for the first time. First of all a big thumbs up to the pilot as I met him at 3000 metres! He had a bit of an advantage to start as I had to climb and turn to get on him to ID him first.

I managed to keep him in front of my nose for a few turns back and forth by doing some high yo yos. I got some MG shots on him first from a distance and saw him streaming coolant. So I thought I had this Spit 2 under control. He then went into a dive and I climbed a bit to wait for him to come up again below me.

So I'm expecting him to zoom back up and slow down below me as I've been spiral climbing. Nah he zoomed up and not only that, he did a hard turn whilst climbing and got some shots that knocked out part of my engine and my radiators! Now he was co alt with me and still hauling. You can actually gain altitude by diving and zooming up again but this was very unexpected.

I then did a helpless power dive to get away but my craft was a bit of a mess, I did some bunts and reverses and managed to get an overshoot but he turned on a dime and was right back on my tail. Engine shot to pieces, canopy off and out for a swim in the channel.

It's official I'm scared of the Spit MKII that thing is mean! In the right hands it's an almost impossible match for the 109. Salute to the pilot too, it wasn't just the plane.

Precisely my point! He used the wrong tactics and didn't have a team-mate.

My bloke used the right tactics and did have a team-mate. So if people are worried about performance differences, use tactics and a team-mate.

Complaining about the game's FM isn't the full story.;)

Its not going to go away so we may as well accept the fact thats its here and here to stay, lets just hope the 109 gets it top speed sorted and the Devs look closely at what power that Spit2 actually has..

Its one of those 25lb spit il2 situations..your choice to fly on the servers that have it, unfortunately there isnt a lot of FR big mapped servers to choose from right now..

Note to devs DO NOT put cannons on that thing:!:

A Spit II ambushed me last night at 6k meters - took out my radiators. I dived as way as fast as I could (close to the red mark) after a few wide circles, then I floored and hugged the terrain as low as I could to hide. I got away and landed back home.

So yeah, without height and surprise, 109 can't go against the Spits (even Hurris) - the problem is that every one is on the deck and it's hard to spot planes on the ground.

When the Spits were vulchering above the German fields, I was a sitting duck. There just wasn't enough time to gain enough height and energy. Any slight energy gained is then wasted when the Spit is on my tail again.

True to a certain extent but 109's didnt survive attacks because someone else was available, they survived because they could dive away, or climb for that matter in certain circumstances ;)

I'd say it was all three.:)

I'm in agreement that the MkII is a maybe a bit too quick, but I'm also of the opinion that the the Mk1 is too slow. The performance difference between the two versions wasn't that massive.

Mk1a with Rotol constant speed prop, 320mph@10,000ft.Rate of climb Mk1a 1min 48s to 5000

MkIIa with 150 more hp and same prop 326mph@10,000ft Rate of climb MkIIa 1m 42s to 5000.

So what we need is constant speed props on the Mk1's and the Luftwaffe boys will be happy!:grin:

(stats from Alfred Price, 'The Spitfire Story').

But would that make the Spit1 achieve its correct speed?.. I thought it was under powered and not just issues with prop?..

Also you do have a Medium between the 2 mate..Hurri rotol, they both have their strengths and weaknesses just like the 109 does but at least the Hurri and 109 are modeled better ingame

You're surprised ?

Just wait for the Focke Wulf 190 A being dominated by the Spit V :rolleyes:

I don't think there is much you can do against the MKII in a dogfight. You need to do maximum damage quickly or the tables will turn. I shot down a few tonight but they were mainly bounces or green pilots.

I've always said once the bugs get ironed out I'll get my a$$ handed to me once the good spit fliers arrive en masse online, but until today I don't recall being shot down in the 109 by a human Spit.

I've managed to always keep my E up and mix it with the Spit, choosing to even turn hard when I know I can build my E up etc. I haven't been worried about meeting them at co alt either, as long as we aren't near the deck.

However, now that Spit 2 has changed my thoughts on this. I'm going to be a lot more careful now but how do you even disengage if you don't' want to fight, he'll just reel you in eventually? Anyone looking for a wingman? :grin:

Not if they are correctly modeled pal ;)..

I dunno, maybe the Devs know something we dont cuz im sure having at least correct FM's is as important as colour?

i know why i fly mostly bombers online (in the past in IL2 and now in CoD). I can stay away from these "pis.sing contests" :D

and yes, i fly the Blenheim too, most times actually............ ;)



one of the most difficult things to do for a developer, making a historical combat flightsim, has to be to collect all the performance datas and select wich one to choose i guess !!
Making the 3D models is most propably childsplay in comparison :D

So you can tell the difference can you? Well, the pilots in the past couldn't tell the difference of a A6M Zero and a P40 and many lives where lost because of it. ;) The 109 and the Spit is one thing - but it's not the only 2 planes the world ever saw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYLXZC63zw



But yes, I admit that we need to figure a way out to handle this. But there will be ways.
Skins for example. Red and blue ones. It works great in other team based games but I admit it comes with issues: hiding would be harder.
There is the possibility of fading skins though. Skins that change color depending on distance basically.
Also regarding icons: yes, the old style icons are wrong but what if it were an identification icon depending on real vision. That would only show up if close enough and if you really see the plane unobstructed. e.g. canope or outside the screen would not display it?
Lastly there is also an option to select a skin and chose different airplane characteristics.

And of course there is always the option of people just going to regular servers if they don't have a problem with the FM or anything.

Keep one thing in mind though. There is a game coming up that WILL have a solution. It's world of planes it it will most likely do it similar to World of Tanks. And no, I don't like the game but I want IL-2 to become a great place for pilots that like WW2. However, with CEM and all this bickering about FM, balance and so on this WON'T happen. Only for freaks but not average new pilots interested in the genre.
This community needs to let go of some ideals of the past if it want's the genre to stay alive I believe.




This said let me say somehting about realism.
When people expect their planes to have the best fuel, ammunition, always spawn it in perfect condition with no material wear or bad service whatsoever, when they sit in front of their monitors, fed and eating great food, being in perfect health and rested. Not having family issues because of the war, being in a moral fight with themselves, being scared up there because they are about to lose their lives, being sad because they see great friends and comrades die, hearing them scream in pain over the voice com when going down...

Also we all are aces, or potential ones. There is always the respawn button and we know the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents perfectly. The pilots back then didn't, or barely. Yet we still demand the FM to be perfect? So we can exploit those very weaknesses we now know planes had? Ridiculous.
Do you seriously think this is realistic and honorable dogfighting? To me it's more like mudfighting on the lowest level.

On top of that there were orders. For example Görings legendary decision to escort bombers at close range, essentially rendering the ME109 useless and making it a sitting duck. Do you know how many 109s were lost because of that?

Or the british flying in line formations, totally ridiculous and some pilots even ignored the order as far as I know.

That said I cannot imagine how people go on about their realism. We CANNOT get realism. We cannot re-create all this. Only during co-op missions and full organized historic wars. This could be done but it's hard. It's not what dogfight servers are about though. Also a true dogfighter would want his opponent to be equal.




Eventually I'll make a write up of this and post it in general. Also please don't be offended. This is not just adressing you but everyone. It's also sounding rude but that is not the intention.
My point is simply that all this talk about FM and so on is far from being historic and that it turns people away from the game only attracting very few freaks. I'm a little scared that the upcoming World of Planes will turn out to be a competitor just because it makes dogfighting easy to get into and "fair and balanced". I want this sim to turn out way better. Maybe it's time to start thinking and discussing options that could improve simple dogfighting in this sim. If all the energy wasted on bringing up historic documents etc. pointing out flaws in your opponents plane would be used for trying to make dogfighting better in this game I'm sure we could come up with something.

There are people on that that would fit. I am definately not one of them.

Winger

Not sure what you mean by a medium between the two Jamz, but I've got the two speed prop Mk1 taking 3m 0s to 5000ft due to weight of new metal 2-speed prop plus ballast in the rear, but then getting to 10,000 in 5m 30s as it gets into it's stride. So only 2m 30s for the next 5000ft.

The top speed at 10,000 is the same as the fixed pitch wooden prop at 328mph, so 2mph faster than MkII at this alt!

Mate I dont care about having a Arcade style same planes server..we had it in Il2 so why not here..however we need realistic or as close to it scenario servers too..again just like in Il2...

No ones here to get this game like WOP, and Im pretty sure no one would want that, this is a Sim.. wed go and buy a console if that's what we wanted, I dont understand your argument here :cool: no offence, I just dont EDIT## Sry I do see your argument but not your point in it being here, with this game...I got rid of the console and built my rig to play Flying Sims, you cant get these types of accurate sims on consoles and up till now you never have..but if you did then you would still have the same discussions if that game is a 'Sim' not an arcade game

+1

Its the exact opposite reason to that as to why were discussing this and have 'some' knowledge on the matter..what we could do though is model every aircraft's FM the same and just make em different visually :rolleyes: how about that?

I said it in my post or was trying to say: this only goes for dogfighting. Co-op and realism servers should stay the way they are, of course, they are imbalanced by design and people have to expect that. I'm saying should because it's also very naive. There could be cool applications. For example fighting in a captured plane. Yes, not the most realistic thing but still interesting for a co-op scenario.

But saying dogfighting servers are real or as close to realism as they can be is wrong in my opinion. I laid out enough arguments in my post above and no one has ever bothered with answering them.
What's so real about our dogfight servers? The conditions back in the days have been totally different. So we can't just quote this past and force it on the game now and say "this is real". It's not.

How you say arcade to such a server escapes me though. Just because I want the very same realistic planes being able to go up against each other? That changes nothing regarding the simulation fidelity I believe. :-P

Quick question
 

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?

I usually fly the 109 and used to do pretty well with at least 1 kill per night (not a whole lot since im fine tuning my dive gunnery). Ide get more if I was able to sneak up on them but no matter what It was rare Ide get shot down since I know the golden rules. Maintain altitude, shallow dive away when in touble until energy levels equaled out and then outclimb. However post patch....

I was flying on the full real hyperlobbly server last night..

I took a 109 up and gained altitude (about 4000 M) and crossed the channel following a friendly 109. we turned west when reaching the coast. In the long radious turn I checked our six to find 2 planes approaching from 7:00 low. I figured they were friendly since they were coming from france as well. As they got closer to my dismay I began making out the outline of what I thought was a spitfire. They were close but not within firing range. I quickly engaged afterburner, set prop pitch to 2400 RPM and straigtened out begining a fleeing climb. I maintained this for 30 to 40 seconds and since I was yet to recieve fire jigged my rudder to check my six hoping to see the devilish spitfire a bit further away and under me as would be normal. Unfortunately the buzzard was closer and began firing. (thought to myself oh **** its a IIa). I quickly banked left towards france full throttle adjusting pitch to maintain rpm band in a shallow dive expecting to outrun the beast. Again, to my dismay he advanced... and began tearing my plane appart with his 303s. Frustraded at this point having on normal conditions would had bested his energy in the dive and now begun my climb I asked ( "let me guess.. IIas on this server?"). I recieved the reply : "LOL im in a hurricane"...

Now I'm not saying that i'm a ace 109 pilot because i'm far from it at this point but has anyone else noticed similar problems? I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.

It could have been pilot error on my part, you never know, so im not saying it has changed. Just asking if anyone else has had problems outclimbing / diving RAF aircraft since patch.

As far as the IIa debate goes.. I want realism. If the limeys had the planes in certain numbers servers should include limited amounts of them based on number of players online. 20 players online flying for RAF? give them 8 of them to choose from. 40 players? give them 16. This would keep the realism and make it fair for both sides assuming all flight models were accurate to RL. I wouldn't mind watching out for a few while fighting mostly Ia's. And this would prevent the RAF from complaining when the next more advanced Germ fighter comes out. ect....;)

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

~S~

Well having servers that fit in with what your saying as long as we still have our Co-Op FR mission based servers which im sure repka n ATAG will provide with more n more detail once things are easier to play with mission building wise and more importantly work..

As you say have your plane against plane server and indeed it would be a 'dog'fighting server...nothing more

Sry 'arcade' wasnt putting across what i meant ;)

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none. :-P

Ok the SPit2 thing...:) I think it should just be working as it should along with the 109..atm its not, its working too good or the 109 isnt good enough..whatever

Ok

you say you wanted to climb but you set your RPM to 2400?..why? You wont outclimb anything setting your RPM to 2400...you can have your RPM at 2800 if you like but if your Prop isnt cutting into the air and pulling as it should your achieve nothing m8..

Do some experimenting and put your plane in a steady climb using trim...100% throttle and adjust your PP to around the 10-10.30 mark..see what happens..

Have your PP at 12o clock and RPM at 2400 if your stall fighting or have got yourself low and slow but not from moving at speed which i guess you were...?

Id love one day to play the attrition game in CloD...made ww2ol what it was, brings so many aspects to the game.

no one could moan about FM's then as its up to you to keep the newly developed AC at bay

Make it historically accurate. or at least close. nothings perfect but I think it would be better. if theres too much "advanced aircraft in the sky then your bombing campaign is failing..

It was in the flight manual under "climb". It stated the proper prop pitch for climbing in a 109 was 2400 RPM. I've not had a problem using this until now but I'll keep messing around with it. What RPM do you find the best for climbing? It's like going uphill on MTB. thought low gear would be optimal but I could be wrong.

True - and also the way the new IL-2 CloD works now I believe is this: There is NO "mode" anymore. No dogfight, no co-op, no single player campaign or multiplayer campaign or dynamic campaign etc. It can all be done on the map based on scripting. Offline or online.

So essentially I'm wondering why there is this single limitation (or maybe I'm wrong and it could be done) left, not allowing to have all planes available for all sides.

If this limitation fell it'd open a lot of possibilities. Not only fair dogfights but also cool stuff like a mission where the goal is to raid an airport, land a "bomber" (5 people or so) and capture enemy fighters, tyring to bring them back home just to get attacked by a fighter wing that want's to prevent this.

So yeah, I think everyone would benefit. The people who always bicker about FM and "overpowered planes" could finally fight it out on fair grounds. The rest would have more options regarding co-op style missions. Win-Win situation I believe. :-P

It all depends on speed mate, but the manual maybe right but not correct to what we have in game ;)

When your cruising out to get Alt, adjust your PP and keep an eye on your speed, your be very surprised at certain heights...You automatically assume lower engine tone/revs slows you down when climbing..not always the case

~S~

Personally I dislike this scenario. Even if it is creative enough to say the least it might not fit the majority of players expectation.

C'mon this sim is all abt BoB. Tht's breathtaking enough !

But we might need proper historical scenarii with stream of bombers flying toward En and a bunch of brave men blasting their way toward them. Not very sophisticated but I give my word on that !

Hi!
If your team has a C# programmer I can give him some links on it. There was a mission posted on the forums where some aircraft were limited. IIRC the online Dunkirk mission.

@ ALL
Guys I believe some people from finest squadrons are reading this thread. Could you please fly some tests in quick 4 vs. 4 or 6 vs. 6 missions at 4000 to 6000 m. with airstart at the same alt. close enough to save flighttime? SpitII vs. E4, squadron vs. squadron, 10% fuel for instance.

I know that recording a track online results in timeout in 10-15 minutes but you can have an extra non-flying person recording it and the fights will probably be very short like 5 minutes and will not lead to timeout. I am sure server admins and everyone else will be interested to watch results as recorded tracks or videos.

Load 100% mineshells, make some big holes in Spits' wings and see how they perform afterwards. I do not know what the result will be and that is why asking you for tests. The results are important to get an idea on balance for some future projects like online wars as well as for current planesets on servers.

I used to fly 4 FW-190 vs. 4 La-5FN in my squad trainings and that was hard on 190 side but we had lots of fun.

If anyone has enough active people (4-6) in a squad and enough courage to take the challenge please discuss details here.

I would be part of it if need be but I cannot get my squad members involved as they are in the process of building new rigs/testing/upgrades etc to run this game well

I would be able to fly 109 or Spit, if needed for a test...

Well Ive just been messing around in a dogfight server...

You have to be very very fast when BnZ a Spit who knows your there, they can turn and climb back on your 6 without loosing hardly any E...its quite laughable to be honest...I actually join them as otherwise its just a waste of time flying

well i was just online.and yeah its really hard for the bfs now.if the spits see you, then you hardly have a chance even with alt advantage.they outclimb,outdive you really fast, not to mention that they outturn you.
boom and zoom is a bit a problem too, because of the white dots the planes have now.its not really possible to identify the planes from a certain distance.but even when you are lucky and dive to the right plane, you better aim good with you mineshells, or they will quickly be on you six.

Im not enjoying it as much as I was now...Not cuz its not as easy but the flights are more boring now...I have to stay hign n fast and not get down at all, if i do and a spit2 is around I have to be very lucky to escape alive..

Now i understand that if i want to fly like that then i would of took a 190 before in Il2 but.. what do you do here exactly? If Spits dont come high then youve got a boring night in front of you, then if they do...fair play getting away :)

+1

AAAAHAAAH!!... ;)So maybe what I was saying before has some merrit. You sure it was a spitII. I haven't been able to gain or maintain the alt advantage after the patch no matter what i'm up against. (only 2 occurances but it is out of 2 flights)

I need to keep practicing online to be sure but I have a feeling somethings changed in the FMs.

to the point.

Today (before i lost the fun so quickly like every day since the patch and the people started to add IIas to the maps) i flew on one of the channelmapservers and met BKHZ Furbs there. I had more than 1000m height advantage and dived down VERY fast. I managed to hit him once. I was able to make 2 or 3 more dives before he had height. The game ended pretty much with me flying around below him not able to do anything but avoid his hits all the time. Trying to run would have just made me a steadier target so i kept scissoring and turning below him. It ended with us colliding. If it s the same Furbs i know from ROF than i know he knows that it was just way too easy to dominate me like that all the time. It really felt like he was flying circles around me. I mean thats just wrong.

Winger

And what about Cant Z 1007? There were a lot of them over britain on 11/11/1940

Yep Winger, i was testing the spit2 for myself and your first burst put a huge hole in my right wing and damaged my engine, though i was still able to climb up to you and equal the energy state and from then on it was easy to turn tables and keep trying for shots on you. i know your a good pilot Winger and it felt far too easy, if i had more practice (im a blue pilot) then it would of been over much quicker...even with my damaged spit.

The spit2 leaves the 109 with nothing to do...it cant climb,dive,run or turn with the spit2.

Its no too bad on ATAG server Bliss has moved back the spits to Maidenhead but he wasn't aware that the Luftwaffe had placed a Mythical being that pulls spits mk2s into the nearest forest by there tails and consumes them!!! At present only 10% of them make it off the ground.

On a postive note the teams are becoming a bit more even now it was only 23 109's against 12 spits :rolleyes: I am glad that you (Furbs) and Tree (Blue Pilots) at least have the grace to even the teams.

Damn show-off Spit driver. They forget all abt the whole world and the RaF :rolleyes:

Hurri ! there is Hurricanes flying on red side !!! :evil:;)

I agree 100% with this. Something was changed (for bad) on the 109, all models.

Sounds just like flying 190s back in IL2, down low it's full of better turning and better climbing planes, if you go a bit higher to BnZ them there are other faster planes higher up that BnZ you.

/me runs :-P


On a serious note, i think the issue is not balance or historical accuracy on their own, because absolute balance is unrealistic and absolute accuracy is impossible. I think the issue is balance within the constraints of historical accuracy, but in the wider scheme of things, ie how the battles tend to play out:

A planeset with more or less equally undermodeled flyables results in a somewhat accurate portrayal of the way the engagements historically played out, because the "gaps" between the capabilities of each aircraft remain roughly the same. That's why 109s vs Hurris and Spit Is worked until now, they are all undermodeled to a certain extent.

A planeset with these same, equally undermodeled flyables and a single, properly modeled flyable does not play out like that, because there is now a huge gap between it and the other aircraft types.


The FM might be off, but if an ingame Hurri does 250mph and the 109 does 270, while a real Hurri did 300mph and the 109 did 320 (numbers are not accurate, i'm just illustrating a point here), it's still a 20mph performance gap in both cases and the way the fight plays out will be close to what historically tended to happen.

In other words, to have accurately evolving fights you don't necessarily need 100% accurate FMs, what you need is accuracy in performance differences between types. It's precisely this aspect which the Spit II messes up, because currently it's the only non-undermodeled fighter in the sim (or the least undermodeled): no single fighter during the BoB had a 100km/h airspeed advantage over its contemporaries.

;)

I found the solution to the Spit !!a problem, gettem before they take off, or as they land, it's just like the germans an their Me 262's later on in the war, you have to get them at their most vunerable, if they want to use them then they will have to protect them ;) Btw i normally don't vulch, not that i have a problem with it, but extraordinary FM's call for extraordinary tactics LOL!

Craig

sorry bout that LOL, did i PK you? i always try to get the pilot because he is the naughty boy who wants to fly the evil MkIIa spaceship ;) the 601 does sound special when someone beats up the field with a 109 doesn't it :)

you did get a couple of hits on me as i made that headon pass, i was getting a bit cheeky!

Craig

IMHO the 109 and Hurri FM are far from being under modeled.

In a Hurri I hve no prob to dash deck at 290mph. 500kph in a 109.

Of course the 109 at alt>5km is sluggish and seems underpowered (but again mind that you need to spin out the Compressor to get some "ata"). But as this has been alrdy discussed before I won't add any further comments here on that subject.

Yeah the spit is over modeled but not in the sense that her perfs are superior but more that she has no FM at all. It's a spacecraft out of nowhere with no E losses drag etc.. etc...

But thx to the intense lobbying of some alrdy named any spit matter has become a mess to discuss. What an irony for a plane that symbolize the freedom of speech !

The greatest ill-advised choice that CoD is facing now wld be to level up the perf of the excellent Hurri an 109 models to compete with that of the thing - ie the in-game Spit. Then we will slip out of any RL ground. A gap that will widen more and more as they add later war plane (see what has happened with Il2 and the Supersonic Late war "planes" (47, 190D, 25lb, mkIII ...)

You hve just read this and want to help out ? BAN the THING ! Leave her in the hangar until it has been re-worked appropriately.

i know that flying the 109 against the Rotol Hurri, or the 1a spit i need to stick to the plan to stay on top, if i get lured into their style of fighting then i am in a world of hurt. apart from the IIa none of the others has a massive performance advantage that guarentees success no matter what situation you enter the combat in barring being bounced and pk'ed on the first pass!
i shot up a IIa as it took off this morning, it was streaming coolant from both wings with gaping holes to boot, there were flames and smoke pouring out of the engine and it was still climbing up and trying to pull lead on me for a good 3
minutes before it went down, it wasn't dodgy AI highjinx this was on the ATAG server. any other plane with that amount of damage would have been lucky to manage a successfull belly landing let alone continue to fight.

Craig

500kph in level flight with the 109???well how do you achieve that??without boost, the 109 im flying, only reaches 450 in level flight...with boost 470-480kph.

spin out the comressor to get some ata???you cant control the compressor in the 109 or am i wrong?

slight dive until 500+kph then level and there you go !

Spin out the comp wheel by over-revving slightly the rpm (this need to fine the prop pitch a little bit more than what you want to let the rpm raise and then get some better boost before reaching an equilibrium)

@Trumps : To shake out a Hurri : pull G : it can't follow or it will depart.

Use your far sup roll-rate at certain speed. The roll rate of the Hurri is poor at most of the speed range.

Pls don't overload your ammo belt with the maritime mine that we've got with that Patch - I guess they borrowed the WM from Silent Hunter ;)

"Spin out the comp wheel by over-revving slightly the rpm (this need to fine the prop pitch a little bit more than what you want to let the rpm raise and then get some better boost before reaching an equilibrium)"

sorry tomcat, but could you please explain that in other words...i just dont understand what you are saying.

Hmm, me niether..

I can understand the logic behind that and how i would/can do that in a supercharged/turbo'd car but is that even possible in game? :rolleyes: