Turn Down Head Shake
 

Luthier, please add this to your To Do list. Turn down the shaking when you fire guns in 109 cockpit view. WAY to bouncy in the current state. Any one else agree with this???

Thanks.

Out.

... and increase headsheak overrall, we are back to 1946 stick in a pole heads as it stands.

Most definitely increase it. I was hoping to be thrown about the cockpit during high g maneuvers while unstrapped.

Only if they fix the gun sight view for the 109. Currently it is just cyclop view.

Any increase in head shake would just be more fake realism.

Yes, it should be increased as a response to involuntary movement such as turbulence and crossing wake turbulence (but is that even modelled?).

But it should be less for voluntary movements, especially in the lateral plane.

F1 drivers don't get thrown about as much as we do, and they experience far, far higher lateral G loads then we do.

There could be an argument that high G loads should perhaps cause more movement in the vertical axis, and if you want more realism, then under high G loads possibly Track IR response speed could be slowed.

But more head shake just for the sake of it is just more childish "more 'ard is more real" macho rubbish.

Just to be clear...the only time I notice head shake is when firing the 109's guns. Then the shake is way overmodeled IMO. At other times I can not detect any headshake at all.

I find just flying the plane is werid I might of never flown a Spitfire or Me-109
However I have flown a Cessna, CF-18 Hornet and a few other planes none of them have the bounce of up and down when lining up a target..And i'm not talking about close in where prop-wash might be a problem I have tried trim control to which was no effect.. I can't see it as wind because then when banking with a enemy fighter you would have turbulent flow or a cross wind effect which never shows up I never have to use my rudder to correct

I seen in auto-pilot moving in on a bandit theres no bounce also watched to see if the trim moves in auto ..no

This would be a thing to fix or atleast have it in expert player mode if people like it But to me Its more of a bug then a real sim

So for those that don't know what im talking about Your target is say 1,000 ft Your behind it at 900ft. You do a small angle climb and level off at 1,015 ft you push down 1/2 sec and your now deg 5% down angle ..it never really levels off right where you want it theres no snap of the control...add shake to this its almost unreal

Headshake??? what headshake, you need to turn on your epilepsy filter mate...........:-P

:grin:

The most I've pulled IRL is 4g (obviously vertical), and it just squashes you into your seat, you do NOT get 'thrown around'. Generally, when you're going to fly an aircraft that is capable of these kind of g-loads, you get strapped in really tight. Very rapid roll rates (ie 300 dps+) do tend to slam your head to one side, but if you're the guy flying you're going to know it's coming and try to counter :) (When you're not the guy flying, it sucks) I've stalled light aircraft literally hundreds (if not thousands) of times, and that doesn't even come close to 'shaking' your vision in such a way that it becomes noticeable. Sure, sure, Cherokee's, C172's etc aren't Spitfires, but hey. The worst bouncing I've ever experienced in aircraft is during (very) rough turbulence, and rough runways. So, I wouldn't raise the headshake levels much, if at all. One funny point I've noticed, not sure if others agree, is that with Track IR, I end up having to reset it every so often because my sight line has ended up low - almost as if the pilot has permanently 'shrunk' from pulling g's!

I can't say I've fired guns in aircraft (from ships, but that doesn't count I guess - I've stood right next to 20mm cannon firing from a patrol craft, and that certainly didn't bounce me around), but I work with several guys who have, obviously jets though (Mirage F1 & III, 2X30mm cannon mounted right under the pilots butt), and while they say you can certainly feel it, it doesn't bounce your vision around. And those are larger calibre, higher ROF guns, mounted closer to the pilot (on an admittedly heavier airframe) - I therefore also firmly believe the 109 cannon headshake levels are ridiculously high. I feel like on pulling the trigger, Mike Tyson has suddenly decided to do that funny speed boxing bag exercise with my head - totally kills the immersion.

Having fired both the M61 in the F18 and 2 x DEFA in the Mirage III, and 2 x 7.62 mini Gun on the MB326. I agree with the above post. In the case of the M61 it feels like a fine but noisy Bzzzzz but no head shake whatsoever occurs. In the case of the DEFA (2 x 30mm) its a very rapid pulse (more like a rapid succession of burps) like feeling but again no head shake. Vibration was transferred to the airframe. This could be seen if the gunsight camera mount was tensioned incorrectly. This would result in jittery camera images the next morning when reviewing the cine (A fighter pilot ritual), but to the pilot at the time of firing ... nothing was noticed. Though in all these cases the firing aircraft were a lot heavier and more "densly" constructed compared the the average WWII fighter.

The same goes for general head motion in manoeuvring flight, the pilot compensates posture an eyeball wise the net result is no real issue to maintain a constant sight line. You don't get the "sinking into the pit feeling" you see with track IR at the moment. You know the G is coming on and you compensate for it. In fact body posture control in a fight is an important aspect of fighter flying.

Thank both of you for your real world expertise.

Of course you must realize that on this forum the majority of gamers that haunt the place will discount any real world pilot accounts, because harder just has to be more real...

:rolleyes:

is this the new trend?? i mean c, you are taking it over the top and acting as youtube-people, who use the same comment and joke over nad over againfor about every video no matter its thematic.

headshake never caused me any confusion, but has it is now its unixistent, it may be overdone in realism, but its good and valid indicator of how much g's you are pulling, since in real life you can feel them and you cant here.

Well, it's not 'a good and valid indicator' if it pulls me off the sight line, which it wouldn't do in reality. Sure, we can't feel G in the sim - but that is definitely not going to change now, is it? :) We've already got the ridiculous creaking and groaning of the airframe to tell us 'Hey, I'm pulling G!'. In my experience (admittedly limited with higher G's or aerobatics, but still there), apart from feeling high G in aircraft, you can kind of hear how the aircraft is 'biting' into the airflow more, and you get noises of buffeting more than any creaking. But hey, some kind of harmless feedback helps some people I suppose....To me, having the stick in my stomach at 350km/h+ should tell me something :)

I actually turned off headshake when I first got the sim, it's just so unlike real life flying. It's better now, but still has stupid parts (the sinking into the pit, and cannon pummeling as mentioned)

One should not forget that firing a center mounted cannon from a multi-ton jet might differ quite a bit from firing wing mounted (very off-center), unsynchronized, cannon on a light (below 2 ton) prop fighter.

Are there any actual accounts from WW2 pilots concerning the shaking of the plane when firing the 20mm?
I've read a few biographies, but nothing was ever mentioned about it one way or the other.

I'd like to see the head shake for firing weapons turned into vibrations instead, at the moment its like driving down a bumpy road. Its not fun. But the concept is great so i hope it gets refined to create a great effect.

20mm I dont know, but the axe mounted 37mm in the Yak-9T, or the 45mm at the Yak-9K, yes. The IL-2 reproduced very well the effect and in the real planes was really so, that is well documented .The advise was to fire only very short bursts of 2, 3, 4 shells and this machines were in general assigned to crack aiming skilled pilots. Aircobras had also the same effect, with the 37mm but a little less.Of course, that´s very heavy stuff compared to the 20mm.

I don't mean to be asshole but real world experiences doesn't really mean much if they comes planes like Cessna or F-18. Both are equally (very very) far from planes like Spit or Bf-109. I am also quite sure WW2 aircraft cannons had way more recoil than modern guns. Of course Luthier could remove or turn down all effects but then we also lose immersion (or what is left of it anyways). I rather take 90% realism/10% immersion than absolute realism on all things...

I don't have any shaking that bothers me. Perhaps turn head shake off in realism settings. No need to make everyone conform to the needs of a few that have issues with shakes. It is either 1 on or 0 off. Perhaps use epilepsy filter for this. But to make everyone the same is BORING and a nonstarter.

Off topic, but brilliant gun cam videos in your sig

+1 internets for you, sir.

I agree with this. If people don't like headshake they can turn it off in their realism options and it has already been toned down once during the patching process. Why does everything have to be so uniform?

I think there's a trend developing where people don't just want options to turn off difficulty settings, they want to make their preferences the default version of things for everyone, so that they can have their preferred settings and still be able to join the well populated servers which, most of the time, run full switch or at high difficulty levels. It seems a bit too much of "have my cake and eat it too".

There are options in the sim, so i suggest everyone uses them to get the difficulty level where they want to for themselves and let the rest of us masochists carry on doing things our way as well.

I don't know how realistic the headshake is, it probably isn't, but it's useful for the reasons described in the above quote. Having no tactile feedback about what the aircraft is doing is equally unrealistic and a long-time trick in simulation is to use visual effects in place of the real-world tactile ones.

I suggest people ask for options to turn off stuff that annoys them, instead of pushing for a blanket change all across the board. Otherwise i might just start campaigning for something equally silly on the other end of the spectrum, having complex CEM, temp effects and anthropomorphic controls enabled by default for everyone. :-P

You're confusing my request for realism with a request for my preference. My preferences are my own - I select whatever I like in the options menu, that's not relevant to this discussion. But since this is a sim, I relate my real world experience of standing next to 20mm cannon firing on a moving platform (and friends' experience of aircraft mounted cannon), as well my as real world experience of aircraft. Yes, the moving platform was a ship, and no I don't fly Spitfires. Nonetheless, the laws of physics do translate from platform to platform. WW2 cannon did not magically have more recoil somehow (F=ma, m1v1=m2v2 still being somewhat true, quantum physics aside), and sitting directly on top of two modern 30mm cannon is still applicable, IMHO.

The bottom line is that headshake is a realistic aspect, but I disagree with how it's been done based on real world experience. It's just my opinion, based on related experiences. I'm not sucking it out of my thumb, nor do I care about servers using 'full switch'. It unrealistically degrades my ability to aim in this attempt to simulate reality, but there are aspects of it which are realistic. Note the italics. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater by turning it off. If you want tactile feedback, buy a FFB stick.

Ah, that's a well articulated explanation and i don't disagree with what you say there. I wasn't referring directly to you in any case, just making an observation about a general trend in the forums when things get debated: too many people have an all or nothing approach lately, when it's better for everyone if we just have options to turn things on/off at our own discretion ;)

As for the head shake, i too agree it's overdone in some cases. I've been a flak gunner during my conscript service (dual 20mm rheinmetals) and while the guns shake like hell when viewed from afar you don't really feel much when you're sitting on the aimer's seat because all the recoil is absorbed by the mount assembly and recoil spring.


But like you say, i wouldn't want it to completely disappear because it provides a way to transfer feedback to the player that is otherwise unavailable for many people. I think the consensus then would be that we don't need to get rid of head shake completely, but replace some of the shake used for gunfire effects with a milder vibration/blur effect?

I think the rest of it that occurs with maneuvers is sufficiently toned down after one of the patches, it doesn't feel like you're slamming your head against the canopy during maneuvers anymore, it just gives a visual indication about the amount of Gs being pulled.

Whilst being bored in the cruise today I thought of a possible option - headshake on/off, as we have now, but then a slider for the degree, ie the 'switch' on or off for full switch, but the slider for personal preference. That way, everyones happy. Minium levels of shake for basic requirement for realism (for hardcore server settings), more feedback for those who like it, less for those who don't.

Please note: I have no hope of this actually happening, it's just wishful thinking :)

Heaven forbid you discount any real pilot's account in any way! How dare you!

...you know, those now complaining about excessive shaking are the same ones that used to complain about "lazer" tracer rounds and demanded they should be more "curly" as seen on WWII guncam videos. Go figure :rolleyes:

There certainly was a reason that certain planes were described as "stable gun platform" in the 1946 a/c guide...